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Ishotyou #61 Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:42 AM

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I do wish this game had better controls. but if they want to waste as little time as possible, the freelancer control scheme would fit well enough

slamis #62 Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:20 PM

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Hi

The control with a Joystick (I use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro) is horrific. the plane is sluggish, bounces from side to side, etc. As people mentioned above, A brick with wings.

The ctl should be more "Arcade" as this game is NOT a real life simulation.

I dont mean to have the ability to do crazy moves, but to stretch reality little bit. A turn need to be sharp and accurate. a roll, straight etc.

Crackedcanadian #63 Posted 01 October 2012 - 02:05 AM

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look here to see if this solves your control problem: http://forum.worldof...ck-sensetivity/


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ttvd #64 Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:57 AM

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View Postslamis, on 30 September 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Hi

The control with a Joystick (I use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro) is horrific. the plane is sluggish, bounces from side to side, etc. As people mentioned above, A brick with wings.

The ctl should be more "Arcade" as this game is NOT a real life simulation.

I dont mean to have the ability to do crazy moves, but to stretch reality little bit. A turn need to be sharp and accurate. a roll, straight etc.

Weird I have 0 problems with Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. It's pretty awesome ~ use everything default.

light_odin5 #65 Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:55 AM

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View Postly057, on 13 September 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

i hate to break it to ya, but most of those games i wouldnt put into the "sim" column. i loved ace combat, up until the last couple became to arcade to even enjoy. but, one thing im sure we both can agree on is that crimson skies was the coolest arcade airplane shooter i have ever played. what you have here is a half way point between arcade and sim. the physics in WoWp is shot, i will say that.  i didnt find the "sluggish" controls and sensation of flying a brick around trying to maintain altitude too bothersome. once you fly from port saint lucie, florida to monterey, california through 3000 some odd miles of simulated air space in a dc-3 you get kinda used to that. WoWP has its share of problems but aside from things like the horrendous amount of speed bleed off in vertical flight,  the ability to maintain a constant airspeed in a turn and the shoddy rudder we have, the general feel of the controls isnt tooo off. in my opinion, anyways...

and don't forget it's still in development



Lunitz #66 Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:19 PM

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I play with an xbox 360 wireless controller and all i can say right now that it's way to sluggish for decent use in actual combat. Since i don't got a joystick i have to play with the mouse controlls, which are "ok", but not what I'm looking for in a flying sim.

I know that many people already posted about the controller problems, but since it's a beta, you have my thoughts aswell. :Smile-_tongue:

Simply flying with the controller works fine, but as soon as you have to follow something, for example charging an enemy, getting your opponent into your targetcursor is next to impossible. You might have him in there for a tiny moment, but that might only get you 1-2 hits and the rest of your shots are wasted.

It's like sniping with a pistol, at 300mph.

Regards,

Lunitz

NRG_ExtincE #67 Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:34 PM

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View Postslamis, on 30 September 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Hi

The control with a Joystick (I use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro) is horrific. the plane is sluggish, bounces from side to side, etc. As people mentioned above, A brick with wings.

The ctl should be more "Arcade" as this game is NOT a real life simulation.

I dont mean to have the ability to do crazy moves, but to stretch reality little bit. A turn need to be sharp and accurate. a roll, straight etc.

Maybe you should check with your doctor for parkinson's. The stick works like a charm as long as you have a steady hand and keep an eye on the altimeter speedometer and keep your plane horizontal.. In other words: fly.

Annoys me how most people seem to think this is a type of game you have mastered in a round or 2-3. It is NOT mortal combat, or dragon ball Z, where the one who has the most luck pressing random buttons in some special attack way will win. Mastering this game is finding the right settings for you, get your aircraft in a training room and find out its strengths and weaknesses in this game in that room before you enter a battle. Master the plane, master the game. Read and compare statistics of the plane you are flying compared to other planes in the same tier to figure out how you can loose them off your 6 if you are being pursued. Dont think oh i played 10 games and the controls are sluggish this game is not it for me. The controls are not sluggish, the way you fly the plane is sluggish. Only negative part on the controls is, is that it doesnt react immediately to your input if you use a joystick, maybe same with gamepads. Other then that, WG did a great job.

For the most part of this post im talking about players in general, and not specifically at you slamis.

Regards,
NRG WoWP division captain: ExtincE

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Kahldris #68 Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:39 PM

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I have to agree with him, I too want to like this game, right now I am using a mouse and flying around just feels... I don't know I suppose sluggish could be a word used. Might try a joystick it just doesn't reallly feel like I am flying around.

I do need a lot more practice and I like that you can crash (even though I have killed myself too mayn times lol.

Ishotyou #69 Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:23 AM

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A joy stick does help. even if it is just for the carrot bouncing in stressful combat. having not used a joystick in years I ended up buying one. noticed a huge difference alone but will still be some time before I can reliably get kills with it

runehouse #70 Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:00 PM

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yes the jstick definetly helps the bouncing carrot for sure, but i dont know. i know we are flying planes in some cases over 60 years old but those guys who built those planes wernt cave men if you get what im saying. the planes are not preforming as they were built to because of a multitude of factors, imho the physics modle they use being the bigest factor.

marighahurt #71 Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:09 PM

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I hope someday they will update the controls on this game...

CAMN #72 Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:27 PM

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View PostNRG_ExtincE, on 02 October 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Maybe you should check with your doctor for parkinson's. The stick works like a charm as long as you have a steady hand and keep an eye on the altimeter speedometer and keep your plane horizontal.. In other words: fly.

Annoys me how most people seem to think this is a type of game you have mastered in a round or 2-3. It is NOT mortal combat, or dragon ball Z, where the one who has the most luck pressing random buttons in some special attack way will win. Mastering this game is finding the right settings for you, get your aircraft in a training room and find out its strengths and weaknesses in this game in that room before you enter a battle. Master the plane, master the game. Read and compare statistics of the plane you are flying compared to other planes in the same tier to figure out how you can loose them off your 6 if you are being pursued. Dont think oh i played 10 games and the controls are sluggish this game is not it for me. The controls are not sluggish, the way you fly the plane is sluggish. Only negative part on the controls is, is that it doesnt react immediately to your input if you use a joystick, maybe same with gamepads. Other then that, WG did a great job.

For the most part of this post im talking about players in general, and not specifically at you slamis.

Regards,
NRG WoWP division captain: ExtincE

Here is the thing, we are all here in the beta trying to help WG to make this game. First and foremost, this is a game that should cater to a broad audience, simply because WG needs a big player base to sustain servers with sales.

A clunky control system is by far the worst thing a game can have in an entry level for any player. Can it be mastered? Anything can, but problem is that most people will not take the time to master a plane just so they can then begin to have fun with it. I've played games with terrible control squemes because I liked the game, but it doesn't need to be like that.

Since it's still in beta, WG has the time and the people to make changes so this game can be better than it is at the moment. With the control problems most people will lose interest in it VERY fast, and unlike World of Tanks, this game has at least 3 other games going against it and trying to win over customers with pretty much the same idea for gameplay.

I'm glad that you were able to master the control system as it stands right now, but the game HAS to work for everyone at least at the entry level. You can't expect every single new player to go through a lenghty and painful process of settings changes and plane crashing for a couple of hours just to give the game a try.

You have to keep in mind that there are people out there who have no idea of how important it is to work with sensitivity when flying planes using a controller or a joystick, and you can't win over customers by making their initial experience into a terrible try and error process.

I'm with you when it comes to high tier flying and excelence in battle, that takes time and training... lots of training, but having to master the controls to be able to just keep your plane level is not OK.

With online free to play games, first impressions are more important than with any other kind of game, since you didn't pay anything to try it, you can just give it a couple of tries and decide if it's worth the effort or not. A terrible time in your first 10 battles will make most people turn around and look for the nearest exit they can find.

PS: Not sure if you are angry or not... reading your post makes me think you got a bit upset about this issue. Anyways, we are all here to help WG, so there is no need to get all worked up about others having problems with stuff you are OK with. We are all beta testers and if others see problems you don't then it's up to WG to figure out what to do with that info. :Smile_honoring:

View PostIshotyou, on 03 October 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

A joy stick does help. even if it is just for the carrot bouncing in stressful combat. having not used a joystick in years I ended up buying one. noticed a huge difference alone but will still be some time before I can reliably get kills with it

That is what worries me, I don't want this game to become a "joysticks only" kind of game. Sure, aces will mostlikely be using that to play the game, but having a bad time with anything but a joystick will make the player base even worse than in World of Tanks.

Magisterex #73 Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:37 PM

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Here's the thing: The year is 2012. This game's control lag is worse than Aces High over dial-up modem connection. Call me paranoid but its their server-side insanity that's making the game unplayable. They got away with it in WoT because gameplay is more slow paced. In this, they dropped the ball...

Edited by Magisterex, 06 October 2012 - 03:37 PM.


Crackedcanadian #74 Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:24 AM

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i dont seem to notice this supposed delay. i never have even when the Jstick was wonky it never felt delayed just like i had to yank on the stick to get a small movement.


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HuntMaster82 #75 Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:51 AM

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View PostCAMN, on 13 September 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

I don't want this post to turn into a long read but it just might... so bear with me, it's hard to explain my point while trying to make it sound like constructive criticism (as it's intended) and not like some crazy dude just came to the forums to whine about not being able to fly his planes.

I have HUGE issues with the way the flying part of the whole simulation is being done in this game. I love flight sims, but there are so few games who get it "right" that I don't get to play this type of games too much.

So I'll begin by pointing out the games I played before:
  • Ace Combat Zero: The Belkan War: aweseome game, flawless game mechanics and very nice simulation all around. Played this on my PS2 some years ago, still enjoy it to this day.
  • Crimson Skies: really fun game, decent enough simulation. Played this many years ago on my PC with a joystick. Not as good on the movement simulation as others, but lots of fun when shooting at other stuff.
  • Blazing Angels 2: terrible simulation, fun to shoot stuff around... when I wasn't too busy trying not to crash my plane. Played this on my PC with a joystick.
  • X3 (and the expansions): I know this isn't really a "flight simulator" but more of a space simulation, yet the game shares some of the core mechanics to move the ship around. And it works like a charm I must say, moving a spaceship around and flying into small places and just doing stunts around space stations feels so easy... and fun. Still playing this on my PC with my PS3 controller and my keyboard for some simple commands.
Now to talk about the controls I use to play this game:

I use my PS3 controller plugged into my PC using the USB cable and using the "Motion in Joy" program to make it work like it should (Windows doesn't like controllers).

And now to my problem with WoWP:

I want to like this game, I really do, but the controls are just not good for me. The simulation feels like you are controlling a brick, a brick with wings and a propeller.

There is no simple way to explain what the problem is, this seems to be a thing about how the plane responds to commands input from the player. Making a turn makes the plane jerk to a side, instead of flowing into the motion.

It is VERY hard to move the plane since every action sends the plane into strange movement patterns and you are left to fight those instead of the enemy. It's almost impossible to make subtle movements and taking a ride with your plane goes from "it's so nice to be flying... it's like you can touch the sky" to "OMG! I'm gonna crash! I'm gonna crash! HELP!" every time you move the plane in any direction.

Now, I've read several posts and people blame this on control sensitivity and some other things, but pushing the sensitivity down just seems to make the plane move slower when doing maneuvers instead of making those movements more fluid.

Now, I don't think this is actually a problem with the control itself, I believe this is something deep in the core of the game. And I say this because this is the same problems I had with Blazing Angels before. The planes don't move as you would expect, it's more of an arcade game than a simulation.

The problem is, it's none of those, it's a mixture of them. It's an arcade game in the controls and a simulation when shooting. The game needs you to control your plane very well in order to line your shots into the enemy, but those controls are not responding the way they should (at least to me).

I played several battles about a month ago... and thought the game was too "raw" yet and couldn't have fun with it so I left. Came back last night to see if it worked better this time around... but it's pretty much the same game with better looking stuff.

I'm not sure if the devs know about this (I assume they do considering the number of posts about the controls), but I don't think they got the whole movement of the planes right on this game. It's not a fluid motion. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with the physics... and I lack the knowledge to point it out exactly.

I wish I could be of more help, and I truly wish I could enjoy this game and help to test it. But the current state of the controls and the way these planes respond is all too weird and unnatural to me. I hope something changes along the development here.

I don't know if anything will change at all, but for now... this game is not for me. Will have to stick to WoT. Good luck to the develpment team, I know it's not easy and I know it takes a whole lot of time.

Well, thank you for your time and sorry for my lack of "help".

Hear, hear

Well said Camn, I like the potential of this game and im happy to be accepted for closed-beta but its not quite living to my expectations. I'm hopeful it can improve in the near future.

Magisterex #76 Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:28 AM

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Exactly what Lunitz posted. Flying is a piece of cake. However, as soon as you have to follow and track a target, its nearly impossible to do so. There seems to be a 'magic box' around a target where the game controls don't allow you to be.

Tried all possible control combinations, sensitivities, deadzones, you name it, they all failed. Target tracking is impossible since as soon as I exit a banked turn, the plane 'kicks like a mule' in the exact opposite direction of where I want it to go. I'm guessing it has something to do with rudder and/or throttle. In short, I can't make the plane 'work for me' in this game.

Edited by Magisterex, 07 October 2012 - 09:28 AM.


bloodsport301 #77 Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:08 PM

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View Postslamis, on 30 September 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Hi

The control with a Joystick (I use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro) is horrific. the plane is sluggish, bounces from side to side, etc

i use the exact same joystick and its amazing. It did take a while to set it up properly between the device driver and the in game control settings, however once I got it right, it is fantastic.

Sky_Bear #78 Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:39 AM

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Allot of posts to read through, but i will just cut to the problem which is not a problem.

You have flown simulators that did not correctly portray the aerodynamics, gravitational effect, and inertia. As a person who has flown (from taxi to landing, but never soloed) a Cessna and has been in a dozen crop dusters, and has logged several hundred hours in real simulators and I do not mean game simulators, that what you are experiencing is Reality vs Arcade syndrome.

You see these nice biplanes and think they are streamlined works of engineering prowess, well they are, but they are flying bricks with a prop and wings and they do sway side to side when you are going too slow or pushing the throttle too hard for too long. Every time you turn there is an annoying thing called "inertia" that keeps pulling the craft in the direction you were going, each time you turn too much there is a thing called "slip" that allows the plane to move sideways and unless you have upward inertia its normally down and to the side as the air slips off the wings rather than creating a low pressure above and a high pressure below.

I will help you by saying this, ease off the throttle and slow down for high altitude dog fight, use gravity to help you speed up by diving, use gravity to help you slow down by pulling up, roll the plane 1/3rd of the way before turning gently (30 degrees of 90), roll it 2/3rds of the way and enter a sharper turn but maintaining altitude (60 degrees of 90), and if you are going to lay the plane on its side (full 90) then go to the 2/3rds first before going full 90 and pulling back. Yaw left or right (in opposition to the turn) to nose up the plane in the the full 90, you will still lose altitude due to slip but will maintain an even and smooth turn. Start correcting slowly before you reach the direction you want to go or you will overshoot the mark and need to correct or will correct to fast and pull back the other way while the plane literally fish tails. Flying brick, remember that, the body of the plane has weight to it and while we do not use Newtonian flight we still have to understand the rules of Newtonian flight in order to counter act the change in inertial mass and the effect of gravity, along with air pressure vs friction.

http://www2.jpl.nasa...sics/bsf3-2.php

Look at the chart at the bottom.

I would like to say that so far, most of the planes I have flown here have lived up to the expectations but several of them seem almost arcade like, or like a jet in the movement.

CAMN #79 Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:15 PM

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View PostSky_Bear, on 08 October 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Allot of posts to read through, but i will just cut to the problem which is not a problem.

You have flown simulators that did not correctly portray the aerodynamics, gravitational effect, and inertia. As a person who has flown (from taxi to landing, but never soloed) a Cessna and has been in a dozen crop dusters, and has logged several hundred hours in real simulators and I do not mean game simulators, that what you are experiencing is Reality vs Arcade syndrome.

You see these nice biplanes and think they are streamlined works of engineering prowess, well they are, but they are flying bricks with a prop and wings and they do sway side to side when you are going too slow or pushing the throttle too hard for too long. Every time you turn there is an annoying thing called "inertia" that keeps pulling the craft in the direction you were going, each time you turn too much there is a thing called "slip" that allows the plane to move sideways and unless you have upward inertia its normally down and to the side as the air slips off the wings rather than creating a low pressure above and a high pressure below.

I will help you by saying this, ease off the throttle and slow down for high altitude dog fight, use gravity to help you speed up by diving, use gravity to help you slow down by pulling up, roll the plane 1/3rd of the way before turning gently (30 degrees of 90), roll it 2/3rds of the way and enter a sharper turn but maintaining altitude (60 degrees of 90), and if you are going to lay the plane on its side (full 90) then go to the 2/3rds first before going full 90 and pulling back. Yaw left or right (in opposition to the turn) to nose up the plane in the the full 90, you will still lose altitude due to slip but will maintain an even and smooth turn. Start correcting slowly before you reach the direction you want to go or you will overshoot the mark and need to correct or will correct to fast and pull back the other way while the plane literally fish tails. Flying brick, remember that, the body of the plane has weight to it and while we do not use Newtonian flight we still have to understand the rules of Newtonian flight in order to counter act the change in inertial mass and the effect of gravity, along with air pressure vs friction.

http://www2.jpl.nasa...sics/bsf3-2.php

Look at the chart at the bottom.

I would like to say that so far, most of the planes I have flown here have lived up to the expectations but several of them seem almost arcade like, or like a jet in the movement.

I get your points, and I also know why these planes are probably doing what they are doing. My point of view is that the game starts to be too much of a problem for beginers instead of feeling like the "good times" it should be feeling like.

My main issue with the controllers is the STEEP learning curve WG seems to be placing every new player into. This would be OK for a retail game, where you expect people to spend the time to learn the basics of the game the spent 30-60$ to buy. But this is a F2P online game, people will not come if the game isn't fun. When there is no money lost in it, there is nothing stopping anybody from just giving it a try, getting upset about the clunky controls and just walking away from the game.

It's the same issue people face in World of Tanks every day. New players have to learn the basics before they can become true masters of their tanks, but that doesn't mean you should have a terrible time while you are learning the basics. That is what WoT does get right, you have fun even when you are doing it wrong sometimes.

And like I've said in previous posts... this game WILL NOT enjoy the "free pass" that WoT has had for the last 2 years, this game has at least 2 other big competitors going for the exact same player base that WoWP wants. If people have a terrible time during their first 2 hours of gameplay, they will probably just go and give the competition a try.

That is where we come in and that is what WG needs to pay attention to. Right now, this game is not very fun for your average player. Sure, those who have played IL2 and those with real flying experience might get an easier time when working with the settings and the controllers, but I doubt there are enough of you to keep this game going with a healthy player base. :Smile_amazed:

spittoon #80 Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:10 AM

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again... excellent thoughtful posts, camn

i agree, millions of tankers are going to try this and even if every control mode was perfectly tuned...

i'm afraid that it will still be too hard to pick up in same timeframe as wot, sadly... and those guys will drift away, cursing this title to all who will listen


i wish there were firm plans for a protected tier 1 and 2, a protected 3 and 4... and all with no pro pilots allowed

how can we lock the experienced pilots (like me) out of the playpen, so that new guys can develop survival skills?

WT has both plane tiers and pilot levels, so that would work nicely...  wowp only has credits and experience, but your player profile totals your entire game history!

so... how about:
new guys can choose either path, the protected sandbox or the original best-of-luck-to-you-bucko path

once you reach 5000 exp in the protected tier 1-2, you are auto-booted up to the 2nd protected sandbox
once you reach 7500 exp in the protected tier 3-4, you are booted out into the cold mean world
(or whatever exp numbers seem more appropriate)

of course there would be the original battle tiers from t2 on up, just as we have today... open to all, just as there is today
the sandbox guys would just be invisible to the rest of us

only new guys would have the option to fly in either 'world', and when they reached the threshold exp limit(whatever that is)... they are out the door, and can never go back

 

 

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