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A brick - with wings and a propeller


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IndygoEEI #21 Posted 17 September 2012 - 05:50 AM

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View PostCrag_r, on 16 September 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

I'm fine, but i guess i am a pilot in real life so i am cheating. I use a joystick and have played around extensively with my sensitivity to play how i like.



Hey, Devs Words not mine. I don't like it either!

Well that's the problem.  On a proper joystick rig, the control issues
are non evident, but if your using something else like a gamepad,
keyboard, or mouse, then things get extremely funky.

Crag_r #22 Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:56 AM

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View Postspittoon, on 17 September 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

the trifecta!   aussie, pilot and forum dweller!

my parents would be so proud if i could snag that first one, since i own the other two proudly!

seriously, if i hit the Perth airport with a visa... how long would it take the average guy to become an ozzy ozzy ozzy citizen?

Depends on how many table spoon fulls of Vegemite you can eat / how many VB's you can down! :Smile_veryhappy:



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spittoon #23 Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:13 AM

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View PostCrag_r, on 17 September 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Depends on how many table spoon fulls of Vegemite you can eat / how many VB's you can down! :Smile_veryhappy:

hey... that would be no problem!

but i would fly all the way down there, and just before my 'test',  you would pull out a shovel and call it a metric tablespoon...

 

 

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CAMN #24 Posted 17 September 2012 - 03:18 PM

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View PostIndygoEEI, on 17 September 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Well that's the problem.  On a proper joystick rig, the control issues
are non evident, but if your using something else like a gamepad,
keyboard, or mouse, then things get extremely funky.

I think this is the main problem that WG is facing with this game. With so many different ways to control a plane, things are bound to go bad with at least one of them.

I didn't like the Mouse+Keyboard thing, it felt weird to have your airplane chasing a dot. So I went with my PS3 controller ('cause I don't have a joystick), but I couldn't find a way to make the plane do what I wanted it to. I tried at least a dozen different tweaks, nothing made the experience feel "natural".

Trying to kill someone it's kind of impossible when you are too busy trying not to kill yourself :Smile_ohmy:

Zxaiercese #25 Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:23 PM

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Glad I'm not the only one in this boat!  I just loaded the game and played a few battles, mostly tutorial types.  Damn!  Once a plane starts to turn, there's no "getting it back".

I've played the IL-2 series since it's birth, along with DCS Blackshark and a few years of Microsoft Flight Sim.  The controls in this game, so far, are painful for me to wrap my head around.  They almost seem too "arcadish" for my tastes.

I did find 1st person to be a bit more to my liking, but still, after one turn, I feel like my plane is about to rip itself in half... almost like the tail's about to fall off.  Then it's more of a battle of me vs. plane rather than me vs. enemy.

21Gunner #26 Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:19 AM

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I'm glad someone picked up on it. I've only had a few games but what I've found was similar. It doesn't hold turns like there's an airflow, you get that pitch violently to the direction you turn. (unless you take a gradual turn).
My main problem was when I got the plane at low-altitude flying close to the ground, and tried to climb, it just didn't want to participate. I had to really straight-line it with a small climbing angle to get off the deck.

Rezaro #27 Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:17 AM

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This is my first flight sim, so note that my comments are purely based on my imagination on how this game would be more fun.

I think the main problem, the one OP says is "deep in the core of the game", is that planes just aren't fast.

While I was downloading the client, I was reading through tactics posts, wikipedia articles, looking through diagrams of maneuvers that might help me be awesome and pull an ace out of a hole. I was looking forward to elevation/speed mechanics, as I figured that would be the crux of the game - how far away you are from the ground was the most important thing as stated by the famous dogfighting instructors, next to being in the sun. The first couple of games I died instantly because the controls were very responsive, and I found it really cool that some people were able to pull off Immelmans and SplitS's while I was failing to execute a simple turn.

However, the more I play, the more I am finding there are essentially three speeds all planes have: boost, standard (max throttle), and stop/flaps open. Elevation basically doesn't matter; it takes forever to get up, and you can only come down from it once for a negligible advantage. This is ignoring the time you are wasting climbing and coming back down from being up there, when you could be actively in the brawl shooting at people or being bait for your wingmen. In the brawl, there are no really cool maneuvers. If your opponent is doing a turn, you follow the turn with a few minor differences to keep on his tail. if he's slow, you go fast and wide; if he's fast you pitch up the other direction, slow down, and turn so he's stilll in your sights. With these words only it really can describe any and all flight combat - I find it very believable that dogfighting IRL really is all about turns. But in WOWP the turn takes up a significant amount of time.

In other words, stuff to respond to is coming too slow.

I usually don't do well in games with 100-200ping, but currently I am doing at least decent because I am not actually responding to the enemy. Brick in the Sky is fairly accurate. I can probably still do fine in this game with 500 ping given no "packet loss", because this game has speeds so low and inertia so high.

Well, variable inertia so it seems. I love the "jerky" mouse; this I have no problem with. Fundamentally, the reason I like it is because it allows me to do a fairly large range of actions while at high speeds (in other words, if a similarly free range of action were doable in a more realistic way, I would love it too). But I'm never at high speeds. I'm always stop/flap open in some turn which takes 10 or 15 seconds to get the enemy just back into my field of vision, much less my outer reticle, and once he's there, he doesn't leave the circle's vicinity for at least another good 10 seconds. Ironically, it is while executing the initial dive that it is hardest to aim and easiest to shake - the "jerky" controls provide for a low chance high reward - a high skill cap - option in the game. I forsee the best players piloting aircraft which are slow and have good burst (the GA's?) to take out a third of the enemy on the drop, then just beating the other guys at the turns because they're more maneuverable.

I don't know if maps need to be made larger/taller to change things, there's a good bunch of space already that nobody uses because it's never worth going back up above 1000.

Circling/turning is fine, in principle. I don't think our annoyance is actually with the fact that we need to do something other than fly directly forward - it's what we have to do on bombing runs. It's that we have nothing to do while we're turning. But people can turn forever. Those 10-15 seconds? My propellor ain't turning during that time. And it was perfectly fine. I had time to read stuff on my other monitor while in a 5v5 fight.

To be consistent with the climb difficulty, WOWP should also punish turning and stopping the engine. That would make most of the game positioning at higher levels and crashing at lower levels.

I don't know entirely how adding in more speed would work, but it's what WOWP lacks.

Edited by Rezaro, 20 September 2012 - 10:32 AM.

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Krinje #28 Posted 20 September 2012 - 06:25 PM

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The current flight model with the climbing bleed really really really kills the classic model of Energy, it ceases to be a trade, the investment for altitude is high and the returns are negligible. Turning having virtually 0 bleed is also almost unfathomable. Frankly it turns the whole thing into one big turning fight, Boom and Zoom have been cut out of the equation here.

"Arcade" is ok, but "In a different universe" is not.

Sonoskay #29 Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:27 PM

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try the mouse and keybord. subtle movements seem to be a little more evident  when useing the mouse. BUT  flying with the mouse is harder. Its harder to stay mobile and keep from getting shot  and to take evasive manuvers. ...

Once you get used to the mouse it works alright... but i think the genuinely need to do SOMETHING with the gamepad controllss... I just dont know what.

Sonoskay #30 Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:29 PM

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View PostKrinje, on 20 September 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

The current flight model with the climbing bleed really really really kills the classic model of Energy, it ceases to be a trade, the investment for altitude is high and the returns are negligible. Turning having virtually 0 bleed is also almost unfathomable. Frankly it turns the whole thing into one big turning fight, Boom and Zoom have been cut out of the equation here.

"Arcade" is ok, but "In a different universe" is not.
personaly I dont know why people are bitching about the climbing mechanic.. the higher you go in tiers. the easier it is to climb and take vertical manuvers.. ive made it to tier 5 and its worlds better. i can understand a little buff for climbing. but  i feel not much is needed.

chainer2150 #31 Posted 21 September 2012 - 03:42 AM

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I have not done many posts as you all can see and only recently I obtained beta access. I have played a small amount of time on the beta and its a completly differant experience to WoT. This is evident as this is planes you might say, however these controls are not user friendly. Thats as simple as I can put it. ANYONE can play WoT with the keyboard and mouse easily (appart from wierd exceptions i.e one arm) but the "learning curve" required to play this game will just kill it. Thing is there will just be good players on it who have mastered the controls and no new players as they cant be bothered trying to figure out the controls, we all requested access to get the beta we all want to play this game and this is the reaction we gave it. This means the general public will just laugh at it and not even bother.

Toggle #32 Posted 21 September 2012 - 06:30 AM

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View PostCrag_r, on 13 September 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Look as much as i would hate to say it, i even think my 172 i fly in more maneuverable then some of these planes...

Of course you're talking about the C172-JP right?

Toggle #33 Posted 21 September 2012 - 06:48 AM

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View PostSonoskay, on 20 September 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

try the mouse and keybord. subtle movements seem to be a little more evident  when useing the mouse. BUT  flying with the mouse is harder. Its harder to stay mobile and keep from getting shot  and to take evasive manuvers. ...

Once you get used to the mouse it works alright... but i think the genuinely need to do SOMETHING with the gamepad controllss... I just dont know what.

By any chance, is the side slip compensator enabled (settings/controls/check box at bottom left of panel) in your settings?  If so, disable it and try the flight controls again.  Even if it is disabled, enable and disable it again.

Crag_r #34 Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:23 AM

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View PostToggle, on 21 September 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Of course you're talking about the C172-JP right?

haha I wish! ... but no just a C172s



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SGTRough #35 Posted 21 September 2012 - 09:19 AM

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i started playing last night after getting my beta key jeah!!
but wat a disapointment, its like the guy says at the top its like a flighing brik.
when you want to turn ( bank) to a side the plane goes in to a barrel roll and thats not how a plane reacts.
if nothing changes in this way of the behavior of the flight controles i am not playing anymore.
i would spend money on a game that makes the controles mre real

CAMN #36 Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

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View Postchainer2150, on 21 September 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

This means the general public will just laugh at it and not even bother.

This is what I'm most afraid of... I like WG for what they've done with WoT, but this game looks like it won't be like that.

WoT became a success because it's a good game and because there is nothing like it anywhere else, there is no real competitors for WoT. But this game has at least 3 different games that are going to do the exact same thing, let you get on WWII planes and fight other people.

I want this game to be great, not good, great... but I just don't see that happening when they demand players to learn how to control their planes with such an awful flying mechanics. Most people will just give it a shot, crash a few times and then try one of the other games like this to see which one is better. At least that's what I would do, and I wouldn't give this game a second try if it wasn't WG who's working on it.

I'm just sad about the whole thing :Smile_unsure:

xRedBarronx #37 Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:20 PM

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what do you expect from ww1/ww2 era planes?... primitive flying technology(they ran in hydraulics controls rather than modern fly-by-wire) :P

NerfBat #38 Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:25 PM

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View PostxRedBarronx, on 21 September 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

what do you expect from ww1/ww2 era planes?... primitive flying technology(they ran in hydraulics controls rather than modern fly-by-wire) :P

No sir

CAMN #39 Posted 23 September 2012 - 01:57 PM

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View PostxRedBarronx, on 21 September 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

what do you expect from ww1/ww2 era planes?... primitive flying technology(they ran in hydraulics controls rather than modern fly-by-wire) :P

I would expect them not to crash just because you want to roll to a side :Smile_unsure:

Also, WG has always said that gameplay comes first to realism for their games, and the way these planes move really hurts gameplay (at least on my side of things).

Danneskjold184 #40 Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:54 PM

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View PostCAMN, on 23 September 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

I would expect them not to crash just because you want to roll to a side :Smile_unsure:

Also, WG has always said that gameplay comes first to realism for their games, and the way these planes move really hurts gameplay (at least on my side of things).

I have been thinking about making a similar post complaining about the flight model.  However, since I am brand new here, I was gonna get more time in game, and do it only after at least one patch for the beta.


Personally I think that there should be two flight models, beginner and advanced.  Beginner model makes WoWP accessible to most everyone, but limits the maneuvers and flight model.  The Advanced Flight Model allows more complex flight maneuvers to be completed, but is much less forgiving.  It allows the pilot to push the envelope, but will stall out easily, harm the engine, and be much harder to recover.

If anyone wishes to really progress in WoWP (under the 2 flight models idea), they would eventually need to learn to fly with the advanced system.




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