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A brick - with wings and a propeller


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CAMN #1 Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:51 PM

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I don't want this post to turn into a long read but it just might... so bear with me, it's hard to explain my point while trying to make it sound like constructive criticism (as it's intended) and not like some crazy dude just came to the forums to whine about not being able to fly his planes.

I have HUGE issues with the way the flying part of the whole simulation is being done in this game. I love flight sims, but there are so few games who get it "right" that I don't get to play this type of games too much.

So I'll begin by pointing out the games I played before:
  • Ace Combat Zero: The Belkan War: aweseome game, flawless game mechanics and very nice simulation all around. Played this on my PS2 some years ago, still enjoy it to this day.
  • Crimson Skies: really fun game, decent enough simulation. Played this many years ago on my PC with a joystick. Not as good on the movement simulation as others, but lots of fun when shooting at other stuff.
  • Blazing Angels 2: terrible simulation, fun to shoot stuff around... when I wasn't too busy trying not to crash my plane. Played this on my PC with a joystick.
  • X3 (and the expansions): I know this isn't really a "flight simulator" but more of a space simulation, yet the game shares some of the core mechanics to move the ship around. And it works like a charm I must say, moving a spaceship around and flying into small places and just doing stunts around space stations feels so easy... and fun. Still playing this on my PC with my PS3 controller and my keyboard for some simple commands.
Now to talk about the controls I use to play this game:

I use my PS3 controller plugged into my PC using the USB cable and using the "Motion in Joy" program to make it work like it should (Windows doesn't like controllers).

And now to my problem with WoWP:

I want to like this game, I really do, but the controls are just not good for me. The simulation feels like you are controlling a brick, a brick with wings and a propeller.

There is no simple way to explain what the problem is, this seems to be a thing about how the plane responds to commands input from the player. Making a turn makes the plane jerk to a side, instead of flowing into the motion.

It is VERY hard to move the plane since every action sends the plane into strange movement patterns and you are left to fight those instead of the enemy. It's almost impossible to make subtle movements and taking a ride with your plane goes from "it's so nice to be flying... it's like you can touch the sky" to "OMG! I'm gonna crash! I'm gonna crash! HELP!" every time you move the plane in any direction.

Now, I've read several posts and people blame this on control sensitivity and some other things, but pushing the sensitivity down just seems to make the plane move slower when doing maneuvers instead of making those movements more fluid.

Now, I don't think this is actually a problem with the control itself, I believe this is something deep in the core of the game. And I say this because this is the same problems I had with Blazing Angels before. The planes don't move as you would expect, it's more of an arcade game than a simulation.

The problem is, it's none of those, it's a mixture of them. It's an arcade game in the controls and a simulation when shooting. The game needs you to control your plane very well in order to line your shots into the enemy, but those controls are not responding the way they should (at least to me).

I played several battles about a month ago... and thought the game was too "raw" yet and couldn't have fun with it so I left. Came back last night to see if it worked better this time around... but it's pretty much the same game with better looking stuff.

I'm not sure if the devs know about this (I assume they do considering the number of posts about the controls), but I don't think they got the whole movement of the planes right on this game. It's not a fluid motion. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with the physics... and I lack the knowledge to point it out exactly.

I wish I could be of more help, and I truly wish I could enjoy this game and help to test it. But the current state of the controls and the way these planes respond is all too weird and unnatural to me. I hope something changes along the development here.

I don't know if anything will change at all, but for now... this game is not for me. Will have to stick to WoT. Good luck to the develpment team, I know it's not easy and I know it takes a whole lot of time.

Well, thank you for your time and sorry for my lack of "help".

ZekeTheKamikaze #2 Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:10 PM

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I thought that almost everything flew like a brick before, but I've gotten used to it.
It's not really that bad, once you get used to it.


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ly057 #3 Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:32 PM

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i hate to break it to ya, but most of those games i wouldnt put into the "sim" column. i loved ace combat, up until the last couple became to arcade to even enjoy. but, one thing im sure we both can agree on is that crimson skies was the coolest arcade airplane shooter i have ever played. what you have here is a half way point between arcade and sim. the physics in WoWp is shot, i will say that.  i didnt find the "sluggish" controls and sensation of flying a brick around trying to maintain altitude too bothersome. once you fly from port saint lucie, florida to monterey, california through 3000 some odd miles of simulated air space in a dc-3 you get kinda used to that. WoWP has its share of problems but aside from things like the horrendous amount of speed bleed off in vertical flight,  the ability to maintain a constant airspeed in a turn and the shoddy rudder we have, the general feel of the controls isnt tooo off. in my opinion, anyways...

Crag_r #4 Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:09 PM

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Look as much as i would hate to say it, i even think my 172 i fly in more maneuverable then some of these planes...



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Leadneck #5 Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:21 PM

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I have the same issue with controls, every control method.  It feels like all the control surfaces on these aircraft are either 'on' or 'off' no matter how little I move the joystick/controller/mouse.

Even though I feel like I'm getting used to it, I can't imagine that is a good move for the released game.  Having controls that put you at an enourmous disadvantage until you have played enough to 'deal with it' does not seem like a good way to attract or retain players.

spittoon #6 Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:03 AM

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View PostCAMN, on 13 September 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:


I wish I could be of more help, and I truly wish I could enjoy this game and help to test it. But the current state of the controls and the way these planes respond is all too weird and unnatural to me. I hope something changes along the development here.

I don't know if anything will change at all, but for now... this game is not for me. Will have to stick to WoT. Good luck to the develpment team, I know it's not easy and I know it takes a whole lot of time.

Well, thank you for your time and sorry for my lack of "help".

i want to be 'mean' to this guy, but i just... can't

it's a thoughtful well-reasoned review

 

 

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Satanist #7 Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:05 AM

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Have to agree here. In order for the game to have a much broader appeal, the controls need to be more responsive, like those in Crimson Skies (loved that game btw) or even Blazing Angels 2.

The "flying brick" analogy is right on the money here. Every time I'm chasing an enemy and trying to line up a shot, my plane moves around like I'm drunk. Not only is it hard to aim but also a bit disorienting. Due to the slugishness of the planes, it's also very hard to shake a persuer.

I don't have much experience with real flight sims nor actual flying, so I can't comment on how these planes would handle in real life but from a strictly gamer perspective, the planes need to be more responsive and manuverable. At the very least, that green "follow the carrot" arrow thing needs to go. It's distracting.

CAMN #8 Posted 14 September 2012 - 02:55 PM

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View Postspittoon, on 14 September 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

i want to be 'mean' to this guy, but i just... can't

it's a thoughtful well-reasoned review

:Smile_honoring:

I'm just sad that I can't have fun with this game as I do with World of Tanks, I like flying sims, but this one is just not working for me.

I like WG, they seem to work well on what they do, they could be better in some areas but they try hard and they've been improving a lot of the stuff I don't like in World of Tanks (even if it's a slow process). I hope they can work on the way the planes move in this game... but it seems like it would take a long time.

Hope they are more successful with WoWS, then I will have another excuse to throw money at them :Smile_playing:

Bubi1110 #9 Posted 14 September 2012 - 03:23 PM

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SO far I've only done a very few battles but I noticed immediately what the OP had said here as well and wanted to create a thread, then stumbled over this one.

It is extremely hard to keep the plane "in balance" once you do move it. It seems to boil down to either moving or not moving. Once you move, the plane seems to take over a mind of it's own and it is very hard to even attempt at successfully finishing a maneuver, chasing down an enemy or shaking one who's on my tail. The plane responses to my movements give me the feeling like I had a few drinks too many last night. Funny thing though - I don't drink.

I love WOT and I do still have very high hopes for this game as I think that the DEVs will get it right in the end. But for the moment the controls do leave a lot to be desired and need more than just a little fine tuning.

RAP_01 #10 Posted 15 September 2012 - 11:00 PM

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Isn't the "flying brick" effect really the inertia of the aircraft? I think this effect is more pronounced in slow movers than in the faster ones. And, I think it's fairly accurate. If you ever watch older, slower planes flying in formation, there's a lot of movement between them. I don't see this between jets. And, I don't think this is caused by pilot skill. I think it has to do with thrust response and control response. In a jet, you make very small movements of the controls and get a lot of response out of them. In a slower prop-job, it takes a larger control movement and then you have to counter the resulting change more aggressively.

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Heh #11 Posted 15 September 2012 - 11:15 PM

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Yes, this game really has problems with flight imitation. The planes all act like if they were on Jupiter with pitiful speed bleed when climbing at a small angle, you can do 6 360 degree turns and keep the same speed, the rolls seem to be twice slower than IRL. Not to mention yawing doesn't exist. It's a TERRIBLE flight model imo, and they should really fix it.

Also, AC Zero was so easy. Sorry, HAD TO SAY IT, I just don't like the campaign in that thing and prefer split screen with it. Hell, I made one of my friends lose with a broken controller that didn't allow me to boost, slow down, fire missiles and fire guns. Hooray for crashes. <3
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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

Crag_r #12 Posted 15 September 2012 - 11:19 PM

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The Devs have lessened climb rates to keep dog fighting down low and to have terrain give an effect on game play



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Satanist #13 Posted 16 September 2012 - 04:07 AM

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View PostCrag_r, on 15 September 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

The Devs have lessened climb rates to keep dog fighting down low and to have terrain give an effect on game play

Whatever the devs did, they should undo. Everytime I try to fly in a diagonal direction with my gamepad, the plane does a little dance between going left/right and going up, which makes it virtually impossible to target anyone, let alone kill them.

Crag_r #14 Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:37 AM

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View PostSatanist, on 16 September 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Whatever the devs did, they should undo. Everytime I try to fly in a diagonal direction with my gamepad, the plane does a little dance between going left/right and going up, which makes it virtually impossible to target anyone, let alone kill them.

Diagonal direction? not too sure what you mean by that, you mean a steady roll?



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CAMN #15 Posted 16 September 2012 - 08:11 AM

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View PostCrag_r, on 16 September 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Diagonal direction? not too sure what you mean by that, you mean a steady roll?

Trying to go either left or right sends the plane into a strange (and very unexpected) pattern. If you try to do it by using a slight roll to the side, the plane will try to go either up or down during the roll. You would expect to see this happening, but not in the way it happens in the game.

There seems to be no way to control the aircraft when doing a roll to a side, trying to counter the nose from going up or down just seems to make it worse. I tried time and again, even with lower axis sensitivity, it's like I said in the OP: "ok, now I roll left... OMG! I'm gonna crash!" "ok, saved the plane from that, now to roll left... OMG! I'm gonna crash!"

It's all too weird for me, I lack the knowledge to try and explain what is causing this to happen, but I couldn't find a way to "fix" that issue. Combat is all but impossible to me when I have to fight with my plane before even try to fight someone else's.

Yaw control? Not a very effective thing when you are in the middle of a dog fight.

Heh #16 Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:01 AM

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View PostCrag_r, on 15 September 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

The Devs have lessened climb rates to keep dog fighting down low and to have terrain give an effect on game play

That's terribly stupid to do actually. Most aerial battles IRL took place high above terrain. If someone wants to use terrain, then let them use terrain if they want. If someone flies twice higher than your plane, just watch out from above. You can't just increase gravity because you wanna keep them at low alt, it's up to the PLAYERS to get to low alt.
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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

Crag_r #17 Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:04 AM

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View PostCAMN, on 16 September 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Trying to go either left or right sends the plane into a strange (and very unexpected) pattern. If you try to do it by using a slight roll to the side, the plane will try to go either up or down during the roll. You would expect to see this happening, but not in the way it happens in the game.

There seems to be no way to control the aircraft when doing a roll to a side, trying to counter the nose from going up or down just seems to make it worse. I tried time and again, even with lower axis sensitivity, it's like I said in the OP: "ok, now I roll left... OMG! I'm gonna crash!" "ok, saved the plane from that, now to roll left... OMG! I'm gonna crash!"

It's all too weird for me, I lack the knowledge to try and explain what is causing this to happen, but I couldn't find a way to "fix" that issue. Combat is all but impossible to me when I have to fight with my plane before even try to fight someone else's.

Yaw control? Not a very effective thing when you are in the middle of a dog fight.

I'm fine, but i guess i am a pilot in real life so i am cheating. I use a joystick and have played around extensively with my sensitivity to play how i like.

View PostHeh, on 16 September 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

That's terribly stupid to do actually. Most aerial battles IRL took place high above terrain. If someone wants to use terrain, then let them use terrain if they want. If someone flies twice higher than your plane, just watch out from above. You can't just increase gravity because you wanna keep them at low alt, it's up to the PLAYERS to get to low alt.

Hey, Devs Words not mine. I don't like it either!



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Heh #18 Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:17 AM

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View PostCrag_r, on 16 September 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Hey, Devs Words not mine. I don't like it either!

Was criticizing the idea itself, not you. You're an Aussie pilot that forumdwells, and has nothing to do with the game's direct development.
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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

Crag_r #19 Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:08 AM

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View PostHeh, on 16 September 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Was criticizing the idea itself, not you. You're an Aussie pilot that forumdwells, and has nothing to do with the game's direct development.

I think that is the nicest way anyone has ever described me on the forums :Smile_smile:



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spittoon #20 Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:50 AM

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View PostCrag_r, on 16 September 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I think that is the nicest way anyone has ever described me on the forums :Smile_smile:

the trifecta!   aussie, pilot and forum dweller!

my parents would be so proud if i could snag that first one, since i own the other two proudly!

seriously, if i hit the Perth airport with a visa... how long would it take the average guy to become an ozzy ozzy ozzy citizen?

 

 

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