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P-38J And External Ordnance


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Corsair4790805 #1 Posted 02 May 2022 - 07:42 PM

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I've been grinding the P-38J for the VB10 event.   I started with carrying external ordnance, but stopped after 3 or 4 battles.  I'm almost done upgrading the plane (just have the airframe left to upgrade)....I'm debating putting the bombs and rockets back on, but I'm hesitant.   Both have a 3 minute reload cycle, it would cost me 21 mph (currently my cruise is 359), and given the speed that thing picks up in a dive I'm not going to have a lot of time to target multiple sections.

 

I've struggled with this plane, but I'm finally hitting my stride, and it seems that staying high is one of the keys.  And that speed helps - I got away from a human controlled DB 605 the other day, and was able to do a bit of  a steeple chase and then flip over the top of the mountain and finish him off.   I think for the P-38J, speed is more important than moving mud (and I'm pretty sure Corvus would agree).

 

Anyone have a different perspective?

 



_Bronze_ #2 Posted 02 May 2022 - 07:53 PM

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CorvusCorvax #3 Posted 02 May 2022 - 09:29 PM

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I started out running full load on the P-38s.  I played a lot down in the lower altitudes goofing around trying to blow stuff up.  I lost a lot because I was trying to use the planes as MRFs, and failing.  I had zero clue what these planes were for, and I paid the price.

Fast-forward to the place in my play career where i was finally disciplined enough to NOT try and turn whe flying a HF.  I found what made the P-38s great - SPEED.  All the speed.  And anything that takes speed off the table is something to consider VERY carefully.  At 3min for reload, that's 2:45 where you are handicapped in your primary job for 15 seconds of GT destruction. You MIGHT get to use your ordnance 4 times during a long battle.  60 seconds out of a 12-minute battle, and the rest of the time crippled.

Back in the pre-2.0 olden days, dropping your one and only load meant you got your slick speed and turn back, so it made sense to load up - you were only slowed down until you dropped your ordnance, then the test of the battle you were slick and fast.

Now you really have to consider if that ordnance is worth the full-game slowdown.  For some HFs, the answer is yes - the Beaufighter and the Pignose both are not overly-hurt by carrying bombs/rockets.  The Me-210, Mosquito and FW-57 aren't touched at all by carrying bombs, since their bombs are internal.

The calling card of the Lightning is speed.  Both of them are the fastest planes at-tier.  Using all that speed is the best way to use these planes, IME.
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12_inch_Hawk #4 Posted 03 May 2022 - 01:50 AM

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View PostCorsair4790805, on 02 May 2022 - 02:42 PM, said:

I've been grinding the P-38J for the VB10 event.   I started with carrying external ordnance, but stopped after 3 or 4 battles.  I'm almost done upgrading the plane (just have the airframe left to upgrade)....I'm debating putting the bombs and rockets back on, but I'm hesitant.   Both have a 3 minute reload cycle, it would cost me 21 mph (currently my cruise is 359), and given the speed that thing picks up in a dive I'm not going to have a lot of time to target multiple sections.

 

I've struggled with this plane, but I'm finally hitting my stride, and it seems that staying high is one of the keys.  And that speed helps - I got away from a human controlled DB 605 the other day, and was able to do a bit of  a steeple chase and then flip over the top of the mountain and finish him off.   I think for the P-38J, speed is more important than moving mud (and I'm pretty sure Corvus would agree).

 

Anyone have a different perspective?

 

Completely disagree.  A plane for every occasion - General Gameplay Discussion - World of Warplanes North American official forum As I have said before the P-38J is my favorite plane for getting Gabreski medals at tier 6.  I take the rockets off the tier 5 P-38F because they are the crappy little ones but The P-38J has the full size HVAR's plus 2x 500lb bombs.  That is enough ordinance to single handedly take a mine.  With the girl pilot it is enough to take a mine in a single pass.  The rockets are also good for shooting down bomber groups and there is enough of them to ripple fire at 3 different bombers.  That means it is possible (although difficult) to get a Golubev medal with just one bomber group.  It took me a long time to figure out how and when to use the ordinance with the P-38J but now I routinely score close to 20K per battle even without the girl pilot.  

 

For example when attacking a military base kill both ADA first.  That is only 80 capture points so it wont flip. It takes 140 capture points if it is white and 180 capture points if it is red.  If you have no bombs you are screwed at that point. Drop 1x 500lb on each of 2 AA guns for 20 capture points each and fire all your rockets at the big target in the middle being careful to aim at each section of the ground target to get another 80 capture points.  You can expend all your ordinance in a single dive so it doesn't take long.  Use the speed you accumulated in the dive to climb back up to altitude before heading to the next sector.  You have just earned 200 capture points for taking out one sector and you have done it faster than your bots could even get into sector so you are racking up the points.  You spend the next part of the battle flying around doing the normal heavy thing, killing bombers and what not, but mostly racking up the points.  When the battle is almost over you do the same thing on the far military base for another 200 capture points.   If you want to go for a Gabreski instead of points go for multiple small ground targets instead of the big target in the middle. A lot of time you can get a Gabreski without even trying just by shooting a ground target that is almost dead with your guns to finish it off.  3 in the first military base, 3 in the military base at the end, plus 1 with your guns at some point in the middle is the 7 you need.  

 

Command centers are the same in that killing all the ADA isn't always enough to take the sector.  There are only three of them and that is 120 capture points but it requires the same 140/180 capture points to flip.  Having bombs mean you don't have to depend on your bots or team to take the sector.  With bombs you can take a military base, command center, or mine.  Without bombs you can't.  If you cant take the important sectors you are pretty much useless.  Take the bombs and rockets.  


Edited by 12_inch_Hawk, 03 May 2022 - 02:07 AM.


Corsair4790805 #5 Posted 03 May 2022 - 02:16 AM

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Both Corvus and 12 Inch Hawk make compelling cases for both sides of the questions.   I'm still leaning towards running clean, however I'll ponder the external ordnance some more.

 

I used to hate the bombs on the F4U-4 (before specialization) until LMG told me on Discord that the 2 bombs the -4 carried were sufficient to take out the center target in a MB, which meant I could (and did) cap a MB pretty much single handed.   For now, since I'm working on plane and GAA/Bomber kills, I'll probably keep it clean.   A Gabreski is about as doable for me right now as a Doolittle....which is to say only if the stars align and I do everything right, and the other 21 planes do everything wrong.



Captain_Underpants53 #6 Posted 03 May 2022 - 11:29 AM

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I am not qualified in any way to recommend one way or the other.  But I will say that most often, when I see a guy struggling to score in a HF, it is because he concentrated too much of his time going for GT's and not planes.
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qu33kKC #7 Posted 03 May 2022 - 12:17 PM

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My P-38s are Spec'd, so I just have the rockets.  I bring them so that I have options.  Miss the boom on a light ADF?  put rockets into a GT to flip the Garrison.  Picking off spare bits over a Plant while stalking the GAA.  Finishing off Plants and CCs as 12_inch_Hawk describes above.  Rockets to the face of incoming heavies.  Rockets into bombers when your guns are locked up.

 

The secret is knowing when NOT to be down low, and that takes experience, as does knowing how to get the most out of the rockets.  I'm still working on the second half of that.



12_inch_Hawk #8 Posted 03 May 2022 - 01:31 PM

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View Postqu33kKC, on 03 May 2022 - 07:17 AM, said:

My P-38s are Spec'd, so I just have the rockets.  I bring them so that I have options.  Miss the boom on a light ADF?  put rockets into a GT to flip the Garrison.  Picking off spare bits over a Plant while stalking the GAA.  Finishing off Plants and CCs as 12_inch_Hawk describes above.  Rockets to the face of incoming heavies.  Rockets into bombers when your guns are locked up.

 

The secret is knowing when NOT to be down low, and that takes experience, as does knowing how to get the most out of the rockets.  I'm still working on the second half of that.

Rockets to the face of incoming heavies is a bad idea in the P38j.  Heavies will always turn vs another heavy unless you are really low on hp or it is a really stupid human.  It is almost always a guaranteed miss and a waste of rockets.  Rockets to the face of incoming heavies when playing a multirole is a great idea.



CorvusCorvax #9 Posted 03 May 2022 - 03:56 PM

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View PostCorsair4790805, on 03 May 2022 - 02:16 AM, said:

Both Corvus and 12 Inch Hawk make compelling cases for both sides of the questions.   I'm still leaning towards running clean, however I'll ponder the external ordnance some more.

 

I used to hate the bombs on the F4U-4 (before specialization) until LMG told me on Discord that the 2 bombs the -4 carried were sufficient to take out the center target in a MB, which meant I could (and did) cap a MB pretty much single handed.   For now, since I'm working on plane and GAA/Bomber kills, I'll probably keep it clean.   A Gabreski is about as doable for me right now as a Doolittle....which is to say only if the stars align and I do everything right, and the other 21 planes do everything wrong.

Using HFs for MRF stuff is a luxury.  Getting there fast is more important.

 

Playing down where Yaks and Zeros and Spits play is a good way to get dead, and if you're dead, you aren't getting a Gabreski.

 

I am more adamant about the speed thing since XP-54s are now the T6 meta.  


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qu33kKC #10 Posted 03 May 2022 - 09:58 PM

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Corvus is not wrong here.

 

However, I still prefer the luxury of having the option when a window is available to use it.   Learning WHEN said window is open takes experience.



wylleEcoyote #11 Posted 04 May 2022 - 02:51 AM

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4 Years and 10k Battles ago ... the P-38 was the first Heavy plane I flew.
LOVED IT. However there was one thing that sort of annoyed me ... once i got behind an opponent i had a hard time staying there long enough to kill him.
Why? Because in most cases it was TOO fast.  To the point where i was mounting the improved flaps equipment (yes that was 4 years ago) AND the Ordnance just to slow that thing down enough to keep a target in front of my nose long enough to kill it without the occasional prop-chop.
Sure if you are really bad at moving mud then i can see why you would not bother with the ordnance. But you are missing out.
qu33kKc is right about the luxuriousness of having the option to get that last second Mining Plant flip when you really need it.


Many years later and this is still the case.  The 38 F was; and even still is, OP for its tier. With or without rockets.
But you could never really say that about the 38 J. 
Other than slight enhancements to its modules to tier 6 metrics ...  the only real change to the plane is its vastly improved ordnance loadout.
So leaving that in the hanger was just limiting your potential. Even if you suck at using the ordnance they are great for dumping on the special targets inside a zone for the rare material drops they grant (this is where those flight instruments are hiding. well ... at least as long as you win)  
    
Fast forward to today. After a few Multirole line grinds under my belt ,I actually do know how to make the most out of ordnance at this point.
So; if it is available, then i use it. Period. Dont matter to me what plane it is.
At this point, for me to do otherwise is likely to leave enough points on the table unscored to make the difference between a victory and loss.
Especially in a heavy that has had its air2air capabilities  ... somewhat overshadowed by the japanese heavy line introduction. it makes what you do with that ordnance that much more important. Sure you are now thinking and even flying somewhat like a (fast) Multi role.  But at least you can still head hunt a Do 17M and other heavies and bombers no matter how high they want to fly. 
 
Speaking of Multiroles

 

Edited by wylleEcoyote, 04 May 2022 - 03:08 AM.

Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is on par with my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
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Corsair4790805 #12 Posted 04 May 2022 - 04:01 AM

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I can see the value (potentially) of carrying the external ordnance. I also know that I don't have the judgement ability to know how to best use it yet.   Since I'm pushing to finish the VB-10 mission, I'll probably stick with the flying it clean, and then gradually work with the bombs and rockets.

 

Do I get to keep both the bombs and rockets when I specialize it?

 



qu33kKC #13 Posted 04 May 2022 - 11:18 AM

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View PostCorsair4790805, on 04 May 2022 - 04:01 AM, said:

 

Do I get to keep both the bombs and rockets when I specialize it?

 

 

nope.  Rockets only at Spec.



12_inch_Hawk #14 Posted 04 May 2022 - 12:05 PM

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View PostCorsair4790805, on 03 May 2022 - 11:01 PM, said:

I can see the value (potentially) of carrying the external ordnance. I also know that I don't have the judgement ability to know how to best use it yet.   Since I'm pushing to finish the VB-10 mission, I'll probably stick with the flying it clean, and then gradually work with the bombs and rockets.

 

Do I get to keep both the bombs and rockets when I specialize it?

 

 

View Postqu33kKC, on 04 May 2022 - 06:18 AM, said:

 

nope.  Rockets only at Spec.

nope. you get both not just rockets.  it is two different modules not two modules in the same line.



Trauglodyte #15 Posted 04 May 2022 - 01:20 PM

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For the most part, I dislike removing ground ordinance.  Though, I appreciate Corvus' point.  Speed is life, especially as a HFer pilot.  Where I dislike going commando is in those situations where you COULD have taken a zone but didn't because you went for nothing but speed.  That military base looks pretty sweet.  But, killing the two HFer ADAs isn't enough, to flip it.  So, now you have to rely upon bots and/or wait, for reds to show up.  How about when you got to an enemy mine and kill whatever is there, but you come up just a little short and can't turn it blue?  Games are often lost, due to the amount of time it takes to capture the zones and not just about how many zones you own.

 

Where I would draw the line is here - What drives you, to play this game?  If winning is the only thing that matters and that is what creates the distinction of fun versus a waste of time, then you take every tool in the box.  If you just want to pew pew, then why take it?  Figure that and then make your own decision.

 

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 02 May 2022 - 09:29 PM, said:

Back in the pre-2.0 olden days, dropping your one and only load meant you got your slick speed and turn back, so it made sense to load up - you were only slowed down until you dropped your ordnance, then the test of the battle you were slick and fast.

 

I do miss those days.  I really would like to know why they made that change?


Edited by Trauglodyte, 04 May 2022 - 01:24 PM.


CorvusCorvax #16 Posted 04 May 2022 - 02:04 PM

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View PostTrauglodyte, on 04 May 2022 - 01:20 PM, said:

For the most part, I dislike removing ground ordinance.  Though, I appreciate Corvus' point.  Speed is life, especially as a HFer pilot.  Where I dislike going commando is in those situations where you COULD have taken a zone but didn't because you went for nothing but speed.  That military base looks pretty sweet.  But, killing the two HFer ADAs isn't enough, to flip it.  So, now you have to rely upon bots and/or wait, for reds to show up.  How about when you got to an enemy mine and kill whatever is there, but you come up just a little short and can't turn it blue?  Games are often lost, due to the amount of time it takes to capture the zones and not just about how many zones you own.

 

Where I would draw the line is here - What drives you, to play this game?  If winning is the only thing that matters and that is what creates the distinction of fun versus a waste of time, then you take every tool in the box.  If you just want to pew pew, then why take it?  Figure that and then make your own decision.

 

 

I do miss those days.  I really would like to know why they made that change?

It is well known that winning is not my #1 goal.  For a long time now, I have realized that there are some battles that can't be won because there just isn't enough of me to go around no matter how well I play it.  Once I accepted that, it became easier to not compromise on my loadout.  After flying MANY battles where I am carrying around undropped bombs and rockets all battle long, I came to the realization that I just needed to focus on the thing that plane does well, and skip the stuff it really does only OK.

That having been said, HFs are probably my best choice for getting a Gabreski, since I already know how to shoot planes down.   Technically, the P-38J could get 7 GTs in one ordnance load.  Then, all I need to do is shoot down ten planes, not get killed, and win.

So, don't YOLO, even though I am YOLO to the core in WoWP.

No, winning is not the thing I strive for.  It's nice when it happens, and I'm glad to help/drive that process, but mostly, I'm looking to have great pew-pew moments.  That feeling of utter joy dropping from the heavens to ruin that Shitfire's day.  That will make any battle a win, no matter what the final score.  The perfect bomb drop that solo-flips a Plant.  In a Republic MRF.  :)

Stuff like that.  But, more than that, focusing on what a plane does best, and maximizing that goodness, and doing all that stuff right, every time.  When I actually do *that*, the battle is won, no matter what the score.


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Trauglodyte #17 Posted 04 May 2022 - 05:37 PM

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Winning means the most, to me.  If I'm not winning, what is the point?  BUT, I recognize that this is a WarGaming title, which means that it programmed by a bunch of monkeys, and that the typical game match is 10-11 bots.  Since we know that games can swing, based upon bot interaction and the impact of new/poor players, then it is reasonable to know that there is a percentage of games that are simply out of your control.  On top of that, you have game bugs/glitches and a MMer, which will routinely tilt the game against you (based upon tier and/or class).  So winning boils down the very simple adage, "Don't put yourself into a position to where the game is decided by other players (or bots)."  That isn't always possible, again because there are factors that we cannot outperform.  If you can manage to do the right things at the right times, wins will come.

 

Then again, I've seen players with 75-80% win rates that accomplished that by spending more hours, in tier 2 planes, than I have combined in my 6k+ games played.  So at the end of the day, win rate doesn't matter.  Finding the enjoyment in the game, does.  I prefer winning and that is what I push to achieve.  But, I'm also not getting paid, to play WoWP.



CorvusCorvax #18 Posted 04 May 2022 - 07:01 PM

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View PostTrauglodyte, on 04 May 2022 - 05:37 PM, said:

Winning means the most, to me.  If I'm not winning, what is the point?  BUT, I recognize that this is a WarGaming title, which means that it programmed by a bunch of monkeys, and that the typical game match is 10-11 bots.  Since we know that games can swing, based upon bot interaction and the impact of new/poor players, then it is reasonable to know that there is a percentage of games that are simply out of your control.  On top of that, you have game bugs/glitches and a MMer, which will routinely tilt the game against you (based upon tier and/or class).  So winning boils down the very simple adage, "Don't put yourself into a position to where the game is decided by other players (or bots)."  That isn't always possible, again because there are factors that we cannot outperform.  If you can manage to do the right things at the right times, wins will come.

 

Then again, I've seen players with 75-80% win rates that accomplished that by spending more hours, in tier 2 planes, than I have combined in my 6k+ games played.  So at the end of the day, win rate doesn't matter.  Finding the enjoyment in the game, does.  I prefer winning and that is what I push to achieve.  But, I'm also not getting paid, to play WoWP.

What Greg said started me wondering.  I don't remember running Mary Lovehart in my P-38J.  If I did, I absolutely ran her with whatever skill points she came with, and not the others that I have added since then.

 

She makes my P-82B a GA monster, and I would never run that plane slick - just because of how much capping I can do with it, when I concentrate.  Maybe my P-38J needs to get tried out as a super-fast MRF with Mary at the yoke?  And gold bombs, if there is a slot open.  Gold bombs plus Mary's dive-bomb skill might change my mind.

 

And it has been two U.S. MRF lines since I have played the 38J with any kind of regularity.   She did a great job in the XP-44 and P-47B.  Maybe the T6 Lightning would be a good stop before I get to the Cutlass?  Hmmmm.

 

Yes, to clarify, I like to win, and I will try and win, but making it the center of my universe is not going to happen.  First, have fun.  Second, improve skills.  Third, win.  Everything else that happens is by circumstance. 


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Flushmaster #19 Posted 05 May 2022 - 03:28 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 04 May 2022 - 09:04 AM, said:

 After flying MANY battles where I am carrying around undropped bombs and rockets all battle long, I came to the realization that I just needed to focus on the thing that plane does well, and skip the stuff it really does only OK.

First, there's you're problem. That ordinance is just a marginal performance debuff if you don't use it. And as 12" pointed out that ordinance can go a long way to flipping a sector if you hit the right targets and you can take out the bigger ones in a single pass. Yes, it's slow to reload. That means you normally do the regular HF thing, going fast and flying high, but you keep an eye on your reload timers. When they finish  be ready to dive and blast those high value GTs as soon as you're clear to do so. A steep dive can put bombs on target from pretty high up, follow them with a couple rockets as needed for the big targets then pull up slightly and unload the rest on the next best target or two. At that point you're getting rather low and have a lot of speed, pull up and go back to being high and fast for the next two and a half minutes, watching for the next sector you can blast when your boomies are ready again. 

 

Really, it isn't that different from the P-82B aside from the ordinance reloading half as much slower. Admittedly I have a bad record in my J but I haven't really flown it much since I actually figured out how to get good to some extent, and the way I've been rocking the P-82B recently has made me think I should give it another go here...



CorvusCorvax #20 Posted 05 May 2022 - 01:30 PM

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View PostFlushmaster, on 05 May 2022 - 03:28 AM, said:

First, there's you're problem. That ordinance is just a marginal performance debuff if you don't use it. And as 12" pointed out that ordinance can go a long way to flipping a sector if you hit the right targets and you can take out the bigger ones in a single pass. Yes, it's slow to reload. That means you normally do the regular HF thing, going fast and flying high, but you keep an eye on your reload timers. When they finish  be ready to dive and blast those high value GTs as soon as you're clear to do so. A steep dive can put bombs on target from pretty high up, follow them with a couple rockets as needed for the big targets then pull up slightly and unload the rest on the next best target or two. At that point you're getting rather low and have a lot of speed, pull up and go back to being high and fast for the next two and a half minutes, watching for the next sector you can blast when your boomies are ready again. 

 

Really, it isn't that different from the P-82B aside from the ordinance reloading half as much slower. Admittedly I have a bad record in my J but I haven't really flown it much since I actually figured out how to get good to some extent, and the way I've been rocking the P-82B recently has made me think I should give it another go here...

I tried it last night, and kept my eye on the reload.  I got saddled with a P-40 potato player three battles in a row who could only manage to shoot down TWO aircraft all battle, and rack up a whopping 1475 personal points each time.  I was able to win twice in spite of that, but not because I did GA well - I was capping sectors using my guns against planes.

Funny battle - I was paired with a Bf-109G pilot (also a potato, but not as potatoey as the P-40 guy) against a pair in an XP-54/Spit V DB605.  I shot down the XP-54 3 times, and the Spit V once.  The Lightning and I get along when it comes to playstyle, but one of the things I DON'T do that you suggest is "waiting" for bomb reload.  Reload happens when I am doing HF stuff.  I will do MRF stuff if I have the bombs/rockets AND I'm in a position to do it, but it's not a focus.  Taking out the Central Workshop at the Plant is pretty fun, though...


I might not be King of the Hill, but I am the Prince of Potatoes.




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