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Planes that should be better


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Silence6966 #1 Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:53 PM

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The Mosquito- its just not very good, and that makes me sad, it was an excellent plane but in this game, its really not very good.  its too slow to zoom and boom, and it has no turning ability at all, which is inaccurate.
The mustang- honestly a premier plane in ww2 that isnt even top 3 in its tiers. the mgs dont have any range and it cannot turn or zoom and boom, you really dont have many things you can attack with it as bombers kill you with their turrets..
the p47-just all around bad, you have to hope you can sneak up on someone, because if they see you, you die. its pretty similiar for most of that entire line. just horrific turning, and not really enough speed to pure zoom and boom.
the FW, honestly, this one really bugs me, its just bad, for what was to all accounts one of the best planes in ww2, its a plane that almost nobody in the game is good in.

all of these planes should be buffed, even if its just slight, make the mosquito better turning, it was known as an agile sweet flying plane with a hard punch. the mustang, should be at least semi turny, the 47 and the fw were both actually much better than they are in this game, but im not even sure what you would buff on them.
 
If at first you don't succeed, give up loser, you suck. or man up, get better and win

Russian- I-16e, I-17,Yak7m82, Yak3rd, la5, I210, I220 Yak3, yak1m, yak 15, 
Germans-Ar-67, spitv DB605, BF109B, BF109E, BF110e, ME410, BF109z,ME209A,MEP1092
American-F2a1, P36c, P-38f, XP55,
British-Bulldog, venom,Spitfire1,SpitfireV ,SpitfireXIV,Vampire, Attacker, Hurricane1, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest,
Japanese- Type91,KI431,KI45  KI 61, KI102,
Israeli-S199 best plane ever
international-b-534,

But Corvus says I only fly vampires and spitfires and Corvus knows everything.

CorvusCorvax #2 Posted 22 November 2021 - 10:12 PM

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You're fighting an uphill battle.
All anyone ever wants (seemingly) is nerfs.  Talk about buffs, and folks lose their minds.  The P-51's guns *should* be better.  Not a lot - because the plane is pretty good already (not you, P-51H - you suck donkey, ummm, whatever.)  The P-47 should have better altitude performance.  You don't want to get too crazy, because it is already fast, and has a short bomb reload.

Power creep is a thing, and WoT already has a problem there.

 

The Mosquito does need something.  It is the weak sister at T6, and making it better as a counter to the Goose might be worthwhile.  Even as a counter to the Ki-102.  But T6 already has an OP HF problem, and power-creeping the HFs in a tier that already has strong HFs will be hard on all the other plane types.

It's a dance, and I don't know if the devs care, at all, about in-tier balance of the planes we're discussing.  I remember back in the old days, before the P-38s were released.  The Me-410 owned the T6 skies almost as hard as the FW-57 owns the T3 skies now.  Now, it's 3rd in line, after the Goose and the Ki-102.
 



Silence6966 #3 Posted 23 November 2021 - 12:00 AM

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I agree that the best way to combat the goose would be to buff the mosquito I dont think it needs to be massive, just slight buffs to its speed, turning and firepower would make it much more playable. its shameful how low down the list of tier 6 it really is. the KI is a nice plane but it being so much better than a mosquito is just wrong lol

the biggest issue with the mustang is that if it was armed with cannons it would be excellent, its mobility would be good enough if it had range on its guns but as is, you struggle to get close enough to hit something enough with its 50's and rarely can you keep them on target with the turnies. they really need some sort of buff to become more viable.

I think power creep might become a problem if they ever bothered to buff anything lol  my real issue is how bad some of the american planes really are. i fly everything, and no other nation has as many really poor planes. although the germans having the entire fw line being so weak is almost as bad.
If at first you don't succeed, give up loser, you suck. or man up, get better and win

Russian- I-16e, I-17,Yak7m82, Yak3rd, la5, I210, I220 Yak3, yak1m, yak 15, 
Germans-Ar-67, spitv DB605, BF109B, BF109E, BF110e, ME410, BF109z,ME209A,MEP1092
American-F2a1, P36c, P-38f, XP55,
British-Bulldog, venom,Spitfire1,SpitfireV ,SpitfireXIV,Vampire, Attacker, Hurricane1, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest,
Japanese- Type91,KI431,KI45  KI 61, KI102,
Israeli-S199 best plane ever
international-b-534,

But Corvus says I only fly vampires and spitfires and Corvus knows everything.

SpiritFoxMY #4 Posted 23 November 2021 - 02:43 AM

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People don't talk about buffs as much as they talk about nerfs because no one plays the planes that need buffing and everyone plays the planes that need nerfing so you wind up with the overpowered machines sticking out like a sore thumb where everyone can see them but the ones that need buffing only get talked about in experienced circles which no one cares about and everyone blames for wanting to make planes "all fly the same".

 

Also, there's a tendency for people to talk about buffing planes to counter other planes (which is bad game design) and also buffing planes based on "historical accuracy" (which will lead to wild imbalances and probably even more "flying the same" syndrome) or simply buffing planes that really don't need to be buffed so much as the planes they are being compared to need to be nerfed.

 

Case in point: the Mosquito and P-47B - I don't think the P-47B needs to be buffed at all. The Mosquito could do with a slight increase in top speed in level flight, but both these planes are actually quite balanced in the context of the game. Its just that tier 6 is dominated by heavies like the Goose, the Ki-102 and Me-410 all of which are great out of the box and just become greater with Specialization.

 

What planes do I feel need to be buffed? A couple.

 

1. Fw-190 A-1 : The A-1 is a plane without a niche. It doesn't have the ordnance to be a true multirole and its firepower is too short ranged to make it the kind of gun-focused hit and run machine it is at tier 6. I'd suggest adding the A-2 airframe and giving it four MG/FFs plus its two MG17s instead of the current quad MG17s and two MG/FFs. Nerf the burst lengths of the MG/FFs to balance it out but give it longer range firepower. 

 

2. F4F Wildcat : this desperately needs a niche besides "stepping stone to the Corsair". Maybe buff dive speed and acceleration so it at least has the option of diving away to escape. 

 

3. The entire Zero and Yak fighter line between tier 4 and tier 7. Both of them occupy the same niche of low, slow turnfighters with zero map presence. Yaks need a buff to their firepower. Both need to have their max optimum alt increased and if you need to differentiate between them, give the Zeroes better cruise and boost performance and the Yaks better vertical performance. I'd argue for giving the zeroes the same kind of alt performance as the IJA line and better map presence in exchange for dropping their turn to Spitfire levels. Might make them overpowered though so eh.

 

4. All the GAAs. They all need a buff to their top speeds to remain competitive against bombers.

 

5. The German Ju-87G, Hs129B and Ju-88P need their firepower increased by about 50%

 

6. Fw-252 needs a bigger niche besides being "worse Swift". Increase boost regeneration, increase controllability and acceleration/deceleration so it accelerates faster out of turns, in dives and while boosting but decelerates faster into turns, in climbs and while braking. This would make it something of an "Aces" plane where you get the most out of it the better you are at manipulating the plane's soft stats while being trash otherwise given its very mediocre hard stats.

 

7. BVP.215.02 - I've said it many many many many times before, this plane no longer has a niche. The Hunter took its GAA killer niche and is faster, more agile and more heavily armed than the 215.02 to boot. I'm in favor of doubling down on the 215.02's strengths. Give it a Ju-287 turret instead of the piddling little thing it has right now, or at least the Ju-288C turret. Nerf turret angles to compensate. Increase its base HP to P.228 levels - about 1000HP. Reduce its base rocket reload to 90s or less. Maybe change its Equipment slots from 1/1/2/0/0/1 to 1/1/1/1/0/1. Rei complains that this would probably break the plane so I'd settle for 2 out of the 3 buffs.

 

8. Javelin - Fix the goddamn guns

 

9. F-84B and F-84F - need slight improvements onto their controllability

 

10. All .50cal above tier 7 need a range increase of about 15 - 20%

 

These are stuff off the top of my head. There's other things and of course I have a lot to say about the Focke-Wulf line because I'm most familiar with it and I've been asking for those buffs for years.

 

At this point though, I think that every tier from tier 1 to tier 7 needs an adjustment in terms of power for almost all the tech tree planes and some of the premiums. The powercreep at tier 8 is insane and in order to counteract that, tier 7 will need to have a broad series of buffs which in turn will require buffs all the way down to tier 1. Tiers 8 - 10 can be mostly fixed with some targeted buffs and changing Mining Plants to have their own ADA and maybe reducing the speed at which Missile Bases fire their missiles.

 

Edited the part about the Zeroes and Yaks between 4 and 8. Rei pointed out that the Yak-3 is actually really formidable and the A7M is also one of the best planes of the tier so I'm just going to wag my finger at the A6M2, A6M5 (without Akira), Yak-1 and Yak-1M


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 23 November 2021 - 04:02 AM.

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


Sink_Stuff #5 Posted 23 November 2021 - 04:20 AM

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well the problem here is that they want to sell balance now instead of spend money fixing balance. Why pay developers to balance the game when players can pay for that balance with boosted pilots and special equipment?

 

And so the problem with what they are doing is that it creates a situation of pay to win being forced on the player over time. Want your tier 6 planes to actually be competitive? Buy the tier 6 pilots. Want your favorite historical plane to work better? Buy the special equipment. So, asking for game balance without giving Wargaming what it wants ( a way to sell balance back to us) isn't probably going to work. 



Silence6966 #6 Posted 23 November 2021 - 07:52 PM

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spirit, I think what bugs me is that some planes that are amazing in real life, are bottom dwellers in this game and it annoys me. I would love to fly the mosquito, but its just bad, and the fockewulfs are all gross, i dont expect the game to be perfectly balanced but some planes are just so bad that the only people who fly them are stubborn and really just fodder lol. whenever I see p47 or fw players I just smile because I know im gonna be stat padding especially at tier 6 if I am in my s199
If at first you don't succeed, give up loser, you suck. or man up, get better and win

Russian- I-16e, I-17,Yak7m82, Yak3rd, la5, I210, I220 Yak3, yak1m, yak 15, 
Germans-Ar-67, spitv DB605, BF109B, BF109E, BF110e, ME410, BF109z,ME209A,MEP1092
American-F2a1, P36c, P-38f, XP55,
British-Bulldog, venom,Spitfire1,SpitfireV ,SpitfireXIV,Vampire, Attacker, Hurricane1, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest,
Japanese- Type91,KI431,KI45  KI 61, KI102,
Israeli-S199 best plane ever
international-b-534,

But Corvus says I only fly vampires and spitfires and Corvus knows everything.

SpiritFoxMY #7 Posted 24 November 2021 - 12:43 AM

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Again, P-47B and 190 A-5 are fantastic planes that the majority of people just don't know how to fly well. They shouldn't be duelling with an S-199 but just because they can't turn n' burn doesn't make them bad planes. Just planes that need to be flown differently (and have horrible Specialization grinds).

 

If you wanted to buff them, it would be marginal : nudge their turn times up to 12.9s instead of 13.1s. Increase the P-47's aileron controllability while unspec. Increase their boost acceleration while unspec. The A-5 is already a terrifying opponent whem fully Spec and flown by someone who knows wthhe's doing.

 

Don't mistake "high skill floor" and/or "doesn't fit my playstyle/pop opinion" for "bad plane".


***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


qu33kKC #8 Posted 24 November 2021 - 01:19 PM

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what KamiFox sez above, and why.

 

I've gotten an ACE in the A-5 following SpiritFoxMY's advice, and that's without taking the Equipment up to 11 with Calibration.

 

The Mossie, though.  yeeeUG.  That bird needs help.



egikov #9 Posted 24 November 2021 - 07:14 PM

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The strategy of WG usually is to make new planes/tanks/ships, not to buff old ones. WoT did finally buff some old tanks because the difference of power was so big it was ridiculous and WoT has much larger audience. It took them many years to realize that (buffing is needed). In WoWP we can't expect something like this to happen any time soon.

     Also, the WoWP has guns balance: machine guns don't shoot as far as cannons and almost don't heat up. This guns balancing creates different gameplay for machine guns planes and cannon guns planes. The planes with combinations of the guns have to play like machine guns planes - getting closer to the target. Anyway, flying planes with different combination of guns is harder, because they all have different distances.

     Maybe having to shoot cannons and machine guns at the same distance would fix it. But it might just destroy gameplay variety. Now equipment can be used on some planes to increase the shooting distance. Equipment does help, even though the negative effects are bad. Maybe new equipment should be made to shoot cannons and machine guns at the same distance.

     The harder plane you choose to fly the better pilot you can be. If you like historical planes, like FW-190, P-51, P-47, Yak-1 learn to fly them and stop whining and get used to it (use tactics, equipment and/or special ammo), or go play another game to fly them. If you want to win easy, fly planes like XP-54, Spitfire XIV, Ki-84. Hornet in this game is much better than Mosquito I heard, but American and German heavies are much better and easier to fly.



trikke #10 Posted 24 November 2021 - 07:57 PM

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View Postqu33kKC, on 24 November 2021 - 08:19 AM, said:

The Mossie, though.  yeeeUG.  That bird needs help.

 

i might be skewing the bell curve a little bit        sry      

 
De Havilland 98 Mosquito   83 battles   85.54%   1,550 E/B      10,350 D/B         one of the tiny minority of heavies where i always pack the bombs
 
and the Hornet is even more ridiculous
 
De Havilland 103 Hornet    52 battles    92.31%     2,158 E/B      15,878 D/B       just crazy lucky in this       evidently there's no such thing as the law of averages 
 
 

Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore     

 

 #smarterpilotscanpostpics


Silence6966 #11 Posted 24 November 2021 - 10:10 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 23 November 2021 - 05:43 PM, said:

Again, P-47B and 190 A-5 are fantastic planes that the majority of people just don't know how to fly well. They shouldn't be duelling with an S-199 but just because they can't turn n' burn doesn't make them bad planes. Just planes that need to be flown differently (and have horrible Specialization grinds).

 

If you wanted to buff them, it would be marginal : nudge their turn times up to 12.9s instead of 13.1s. Increase the P-47's aileron controllability while unspec. Increase their boost acceleration while unspec. The A-5 is already a terrifying opponent whem fully Spec and flown by someone who knows wthhe's doing.

 

Don't mistake "high skill floor" and/or "doesn't fit my playstyle/pop opinion" for "bad plane".

I am a pretty good pilot and I fly a variety of planes and styles fairly well, my issue with the p47 and the FW is simple, I dont like planes where you rely on someone not seeing you or being engaged with someone else. the s199 isnt really a turn and burn, it has just enough turn to keep your guns on someone and just enough burn that most planes cant just zoom you and run, but it has enough range on its guns to make it a problem for planes who zoom and boom. the fw should be more maneuverable, I honestly dont know what you would do for the p47. but last night I shot down some poor gumby in  p47 about 6 times and a fw guy must have been cursing me because I got him about 4 times.  if a planes style to be succsessful consists of " wait until the other guy is engaged thats not a good plane.


If at first you don't succeed, give up loser, you suck. or man up, get better and win

Russian- I-16e, I-17,Yak7m82, Yak3rd, la5, I210, I220 Yak3, yak1m, yak 15, 
Germans-Ar-67, spitv DB605, BF109B, BF109E, BF110e, ME410, BF109z,ME209A,MEP1092
American-F2a1, P36c, P-38f, XP55,
British-Bulldog, venom,Spitfire1,SpitfireV ,SpitfireXIV,Vampire, Attacker, Hurricane1, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest,
Japanese- Type91,KI431,KI45  KI 61, KI102,
Israeli-S199 best plane ever
international-b-534,

But Corvus says I only fly vampires and spitfires and Corvus knows everything.

CorvusCorvax #12 Posted 25 November 2021 - 04:19 AM

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View PostSilence6966, on 24 November 2021 - 10:10 PM, said:

 I shot down some poor gumby in  p47 about 6 times and a fw guy must have been cursing me because I got him about 4 times. 

Tonight, in my bone stock (not even elite) XP-44, I shot down, two times each, a flighted, spec pair of P-38Fs.  In a previous battle, in my P-43, I outplayed and outscored a spec P-38F on my team.

There are a lot of humans in the mid tiers that really have no idea how to play particular planes.  That you ran into two of them is not a surprise.  I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, how many skilled P-38F pilots I've see in the past month.  But I have seen a BOOTY-load of humans trying to use it to turnfight.  Arguably, the P-38F is the strongest plane at T5.  But if you judge it by the potatoes that regularly play it, you'd never even think of going down the American HF line. 

 

I have encountered many a human trying to turnfight me with a FW-190A-5 in my Tornado, and even my Spit V DB605. 

 

Treating planes that aren't turnfighters like they are turnfighters doesn't make the planes bad.



Silence6966 #13 Posted 25 November 2021 - 06:05 AM

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I only brought that up as a way to illustrate that these planes arent pilot friendly.

my main point is that these planes arent even really representative of their real life abilities. the p47 for example was a high altitude fighter that had some of the highest speed at alt of any fighter, but was not a low alt plane at all. it was actually a solid dog fighter at high alt and was very good at protecting bombers at high alt. it had a crazy dive rate, and had great power but was a big heavy thing that climbed well but not amazing. there are historians who believe it had more to do with american success than the mustang. in this game its just bad, like nobody flies them much bad.

I would love to see great pilots in them but there are not that many great pilots even playing much, and those that are, arent flying the lower end planes.
If at first you don't succeed, give up loser, you suck. or man up, get better and win

Russian- I-16e, I-17,Yak7m82, Yak3rd, la5, I210, I220 Yak3, yak1m, yak 15, 
Germans-Ar-67, spitv DB605, BF109B, BF109E, BF110e, ME410, BF109z,ME209A,MEP1092
American-F2a1, P36c, P-38f, XP55,
British-Bulldog, venom,Spitfire1,SpitfireV ,SpitfireXIV,Vampire, Attacker, Hurricane1, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest,
Japanese- Type91,KI431,KI45  KI 61, KI102,
Israeli-S199 best plane ever
international-b-534,

But Corvus says I only fly vampires and spitfires and Corvus knows everything.

wylleEcoyote #14 Posted 25 November 2021 - 05:15 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 22 November 2021 - 09:43 PM, said:

 

What planes do I feel need to be buffed? A couple.

 

1. Fw-190 A-1 : The A-1 is a plane without a niche. It doesn't have the ordnance to be a true multirole and its firepower is too short ranged to make it the kind of gun-focused hit and run machine it is at tier 6. I'd suggest adding the A-2 airframe and giving it four MG/FFs plus its two MG17s instead of the current quad MG17s and two MG/FFs. Nerf the burst lengths of the MG/FFs to balance it out but give it longer range firepower. 

 

2. F4F Wildcat : this desperately needs a niche besides "stepping stone to the Corsair". Maybe buff dive speed and acceleration so it at least has the option of diving away to escape. 

 

3. The entire Zero and Yak fighter line between tier 4 and tier 7. Both of them occupy the same niche of low, slow turnfighters with zero map presence. Yaks need a buff to their firepower. Both need to have their max optimum alt increased and if you need to differentiate between them, give the Zeroes better cruise and boost performance and the Yaks better vertical performance. I'd argue for giving the zeroes the same kind of alt performance as the IJA line and better map presence in exchange for dropping their turn to Spitfire levels. Might make them overpowered though so eh.

 

4. All the GAAs. They all need a buff to their top speeds to remain competitive against bombers.

 

5. The German Ju-87G, Hs129B and Ju-88P need their firepower increased by about 50%

 

6. Fw-252 needs a bigger niche besides being "worse Swift". Increase boost regeneration, increase controllability and acceleration/deceleration so it accelerates faster out of turns, in dives and while boosting but decelerates faster into turns, in climbs and while braking. This would make it something of an "Aces" plane where you get the most out of it the better you are at manipulating the plane's soft stats while being trash otherwise given its very mediocre hard stats.

 

7. BVP.215.02 - I've said it many many many many times before, this plane no longer has a niche. The Hunter took its GAA killer niche and is faster, more agile and more heavily armed than the 215.02 to boot. I'm in favor of doubling down on the 215.02's strengths. Give it a Ju-287 turret instead of the piddling little thing it has right now, or at least the Ju-288C turret. Nerf turret angles to compensate. Increase its base HP to P.228 levels - about 1000HP. Reduce its base rocket reload to 90s or less. Maybe change its Equipment slots from 1/1/2/0/0/1 to 1/1/1/1/0/1. Rei complains that this would probably break the plane so I'd settle for 2 out of the 3 buffs.

 

8. Javelin - Fix the goddamn guns

 

9. F-84B and F-84F - need slight improvements onto their controllability

 

10. All .50cal above tier 7 need a range increase of about 15 - 20%

 

These are stuff off the top of my head. There's other things and of course I have a lot to say about the Focke-Wulf line because I'm most familiar with it and I've been asking for those buffs for years.

 

At this point though, I think that every tier from tier 1 to tier 7 needs an adjustment in terms of power for almost all the tech tree planes and some of the premiums. The powercreep at tier 8 is insane and in order to counteract that, tier 7 will need to have a broad series of buffs which in turn will require buffs all the way down to tier 1. Tiers 8 - 10 can be mostly fixed with some targeted buffs and changing Mining Plants to have their own ADA and maybe reducing the speed at which Missile Bases fire their missiles.

 

Edited the part about the Zeroes and Yaks between 4 and 8. Rei pointed out that the Yak-3 is actually really formidable and the A7M is also one of the best planes of the tier so I'm just going to wag my finger at the A6M2, A6M5 (without Akira), Yak-1 and Yak-1M


1. Ordnance wise the A1 is good for two ground kills per reload. 4 if you are paying attention and kill stealing.  While its firepower does seem lacking out of the box (equivalent to bf 109 E)  a Gas Operated Action turns it into a nasty fire starter. 
The pair of cannons with 4x LMG is a straight forward stepping stone from the Ar 197 and He 110. 
Honestly the greatest stumbling block is the switch from slow fragile hard hitting turn fighters to Fast tough hard hitting energy fighters. Mistakes made here turn into lessons learned that make the A5 so nasty in competent hands.

2. the F4F is pretty close to historical accuracy in how it measures up to other planes in tier. It is a jack of all trades and master of none. COming into it fresh as a noob and it is not obvious what you should be doing with it. So moist fail their way upward to the corsairs. Everyone is quick to say it has no strengths. But everyone is also quick to overlook that it has no weaknesses either. 
It hard counters nothing but can soft counter everything it sees.  If you know what to do (a little bit of everything) and when to do it; the Wildcat  becomes an Ace's plane.  If you dont know what to do its kinda trash.

3. You arent wrong. But there ARE people that like turn fighting. They should have something to fly besides spitfires i guess.
If you wanna be an unbeatable turn fighter then you will have to accept the fact that your gonna be a slow poke.Of course if they really wanted to be useful then they could embrace that slow cruise speed and fly as a Cap for the mid tier attackers that really do need all the help they can get. 

4. remember that historically most of the in game attackers (especially at mid tier) and their historical counter parts were all of them older obsolete airframes with under powered engines lugging around a lot of ordnance that died in large numbers when ever they were attacked by up to date fighters. It got so bad that MRoles came into being in order to deliver at least some amount of ordnance in a machine that can actually defend itself against dedicated air superiority machines . 
(when they werent built specifically for CAS in non friendly skys from the ground up like the Fw 190 and P-47) which is why the attacker lines dont really get better until tier 7+

5. Agreed. Unfortunately the method for doing this already exists. HEAP gold ammo. And gold Turret ammo (for maximum crits if not maximum damage) There are not a lot of Pay 2Win elements in the game but this is one of them.

6. I am down for this but arguments could be made that this is what specialization and ultimate equipment is for.

7. oh heck yes! 

8&9. I dont have them so i cant say for anything else, for or against..

10. im not entierly sold in this.what sort of nerf would balance this out? 


Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is on par with my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
 I start on the right track and then sometimes make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 

Specialist Planes earned: Japan, USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Europe
Light Fighters:  zeGermans? All of them. I-17Yak-1MiG-3, La-5
Ki-5/8/10/27/43-I/43-II, A4N, A5M, A6M1/2/3/5, Hurricane Ia, Bristol 146, Spitfire I/Vb IM, DH.100 F1,
P-23/36/36C/39N-1/40 /51 A/D, XP-31/36F/55, Hawk 75M, Model 81A-1XF15C

MultiRole Fighters: Type 91, P-12/26/35/43, XP-44/72, P-47B/N, F11C-2, F4F/U-1, 
Skua, Hurricane I/II/D, Tornado, Typhoon, Sea Hawk, All of zeGermans, I-5/15/16(e)(l)

Heavy Fighters: F5F, P-38 F/J, XP-54/58/75, F7F, P-82 B, Beaufighter/ VAo 192, Fw 57, Bf 110 B/C-6/E, Me 410, Bf 109 Z, Do 335 A-1, BV P.203, Me 262/ HG II, Tu-1, SE 100,

Attack Aircraft: BSh-2, All of zeGermans, Wirraway
Bombers: B-17 G, Do 17 Z / 217 M, He 111 H2, Ju 288 C, EF 131, Pe-2 

 


SpiritFoxMY #15 Posted 26 November 2021 - 06:23 AM

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View PostwylleEcoyote, on 26 November 2021 - 01:15 AM, said:


1. Ordnance wise the A1 is good for two ground kills per reload. 4 if you are paying attention and kill stealing.  While its firepower does seem lacking out of the box (equivalent to bf 109 E)  a Gas Operated Action turns it into a nasty fire starter. 
The pair of cannons with 4x LMG is a straight forward stepping stone from the Ar 197 and He 110. 
Honestly the greatest stumbling block is the switch from slow fragile hard hitting turn fighters to Fast tough hard hitting energy fighters. Mistakes made here turn into lessons learned that make the A5 so nasty in competent hands.

2. the F4F is pretty close to historical accuracy in how it measures up to other planes in tier. It is a jack of all trades and master of none. COming into it fresh as a noob and it is not obvious what you should be doing with it. So moist fail their way upward to the corsairs. Everyone is quick to say it has no strengths. But everyone is also quick to overlook that it has no weaknesses either. 
It hard counters nothing but can soft counter everything it sees.  If you know what to do (a little bit of everything) and when to do it; the Wildcat  becomes an Ace's plane.  If you dont know what to do its kinda trash.

3. You arent wrong. But there ARE people that like turn fighting. They should have something to fly besides spitfires i guess.
If you wanna be an unbeatable turn fighter then you will have to accept the fact that your gonna be a slow poke.Of course if they really wanted to be useful then they could embrace that slow cruise speed and fly as a Cap for the mid tier attackers that really do need all the help they can get. 

4. remember that historically most of the in game attackers (especially at mid tier) and their historical counter parts were all of them older obsolete airframes with under powered engines lugging around a lot of ordnance that died in large numbers when ever they were attacked by up to date fighters. It got so bad that MRoles came into being in order to deliver at least some amount of ordnance in a machine that can actually defend itself against dedicated air superiority machines . 
(when they werent built specifically for CAS in non friendly skys from the ground up like the Fw 190 and P-47) which is why the attacker lines dont really get better until tier 7+

5. Agreed. Unfortunately the method for doing this already exists. HEAP gold ammo. And gold Turret ammo (for maximum crits if not maximum damage) There are not a lot of Pay 2Win elements in the game but this is one of them.

6. I am down for this but arguments could be made that this is what specialization and ultimate equipment is for.

7. oh heck yes! 

8&9. I dont have them so i cant say for anything else, for or against..

10. im not entierly sold in this.what sort of nerf would balance this out? 

 

1. I mean, I'm well aware of this - the A-1 was the fourth plane I ever Specialized and the second I specialized after Specialization was introduced largely to see whether it could be made meta-competitive: it can't. Flamethrowing was just a meme build I came up with to try and get something more out of it when I realized it could never be meta-competitive. The problem is the lack of range combined with the 190's general lack of close-in agility - similar to the Mustang's problems except the Mustang has fantastic energy performance - the 190s do not. That limits the A-1 to rear-end bushwhacks. If your opponent sees you coming, he can just turn to face you and even the Zero will out-dps you in a head on because he has better 20mms than you do and your only chance is to boost full speed at him to get within 440m ASAP. About the only plane you can successfully take in a straight head on is the Ki-43-II.  Now you'll still kill a Zero (if only barely) in a head on with both at full HP simply by having almost 45% more HP than he does but that should show just how bad the A-1 is outgunned.

 

All I'm asking is that the A-1 be able to pull off the same maneuvers as the A-5 - aggressively counterattack people who decide to spend an entire match headhunting you because unless he's a Ki-43-II, as long as he doesn't turn away, you cannot safely turn on him because he'll beat you in the head to head.

 

2. It doesn't have enough of anything - it isn't fast enough to escape crippling damage from a Zero, much less a Spitfire if the other guy manages to dodge your attack and turn in on you. It doesn't have enough controllability to make jank moves with its manual controls in the same way as the Boomerang. It just doesn't have the weapon range and endurance to chase down enemy heavies who don't want to hang around. I understand the idea that it is a jack of all trades, master of none, but the successful ones in that category are good enough in all categories to always have some advantage they can exploit (like the XP-44 which is in the same class as the Wildcat but is a far superior plane). The Wildcat never has enough and even a successful escape against a Zero means you've been shot to ribbons on the way out. To quote Reitousair on this: The Wildcat just never manages to be more than... mediocre.

 

3. Not really going to argue - I hate turnfighting and turnfighters and think they have no place in the meta but that's my own prejudices showing. Again, as mentioned, Rei did point out that the A7M and Yak-3 are actually truly formidable planes in their own right and an A6M5 with Akira is basically death in a circle so I'll just acknowledge this and move on.

 

4. Yeah, but this game isn't historical. If it was, the Zero would be as fast as a Spitfire and the altitude of an Emil. GAAs need more speed because the pace of the game has increased with the introduction of bombers. Bombers already tend to cap faster and they also move faster. GAAs need something to keep up and improving their map presence with a higher overall speed would go a long way to making them - as a class - competitive.

 

5. HEAP makes them barely competitive - that's it. They still need at least a 25% increase to shave off one more shot (so you kill heavy targets in two - three shots, not four - five.

 

6. Unfortunately both the Swift and the 252 have identical equipment slots as well so even full Specialized, the 252 remains "lesser Swift"

 

8. As an example I once had a guy in a Specialized Javelin (1200HP) chase down my crippled EF-131 (210HP) and we just traded shots. No maneuvering, nothing. I took him down to less than 100 HP before he finally landed the shots to kill me. The Javelin's gun spread makes the Zwilling look like a C-6.

 

9. The F-84F in particular is really truly painful in terms of handling and responsiveness. I note on the other thread you said that the Thunderbolts are able to easily pull out of their dives - not the F-84F. In fact, in my first ever flight in it, I flew into the Mining Plant I was attacking - twice. The plane responds like its controls are stuck in concrete. Once it begins to maneuver, its good, but its really sluggish going into them and in particular seems to respond really poorly at high speeds. This makes it challenging to maneuver in because you really need to slam on the brakes to get it to respond and like most multiroles, it doesn't really accelerate very well from a cold start. Plus its equipment slots a 1/2/1/0/0/1 so you can't even fix that mediocre acceleration with Turbine because you'll need the engine slot for LPU.

 

10. No nerf. The .50cal are barely competitive at tier 8 and above it they aren't competitive at all. You might point to the XP-72, P-82B and F-82E as counterexamples but the P-82B has fourteen freedom cal and both the XP-72 and F-82E are packing tier 10 M3s. If anything the F-82E and XP-72 kind of prove this point: for freedom cal to be competitive, they need to have performance equivalent to weapons two tiers up. Otherwise they're just too short ranged. You might need to nerf the Sabre a bit to compensate (I'd say nerf its turn from 9.6s to 10.3s) but its a trade I'd happily make. The other American HMG planes are already pretty mediocre anyway so I don't think any nerfs need to be done to them.


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 26 November 2021 - 06:42 AM.

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


Flaming_Fart #16 Posted 26 November 2021 - 04:03 PM

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Mosquito, absolutely. Germans feared and hatet it. They even tried to make their own Moskito

Trauglodyte #17 Posted 26 November 2021 - 06:42 PM

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Buffs are necessary.  But, the problem is that WarGaming has too vanilla of an approach to their games.  The turn fighters are the same as all of the other turn fighters.  Turn radii are generic, as all get out, and do not factor into account history, in the slightest.  And altitude is even worse.  When a bomber, turned Heavy/GAA, has less garbage altitude performance, you know that everything in the world is wrong.


We can talk about buffs.  WarGaming gives two craps about what any of us think.  So, recognize that this will be limited to us just talking things out and having fun.






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