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balance, let us know what you want.

balance MM

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losttwo #1 Posted 11 November 2021 - 12:44 PM

    which way do we go?

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So the common game and MM is suppose to make a match consisting of :

             2 fighters

             2 heavies

             2 bombers

             2 ga

             4 multi-roles. 

 

We have all add that 10% game that just doesn't fit that pattern

but for the most part that is how simple the Match Maker works. 

 

It also choose from 2 separate tiers for that list

       Tier : 1-2 : 2-3 : 3-4 : 4-5 : 5-6 : 6-7 : 7-8 : 8-9 : 9-10 

 

That is the basics of Wargamings random system. 

 

Now tell us how you would go beyond that and improve or make it even more simple

for fast matches shorter than a 1 minute 50 second queue time. 



Trauglodyte #2 Posted 11 November 2021 - 01:14 PM

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This is what I think:

 

  • Single tier games should be the priority, as it especially helps new and poor players; I can't remember the last time that I was in a single tier game and that is a travesty
  • The MMer should NEVER EVER create a game, with imbalanced tiers; would tie in nicely to point #1
  • There should be a special MMer, for players under a combined certain number of games and winning percentage (done in WoT); it is hard to maintain new players, if they're constantly losing (should also have a Pilot Academy, like WoT)
  • No game should EVER allow a team to have more of one class type than the opposing team (often a problem as a result of flights but it also does randomly happen in non-flight games)
  • 3 node maps should be the outlier, especially for tier 5 and 6 games, as that allows the stronger top tier planes to more easily dominate
  • The MMer should take into account the number of games that a player has been bottom tier and correct that (WoT has this, so that players aren't constantly bottom tier); would tie in nicely to point #1
  • The MMer should 100% mirror the planes that humans are playing, so that matchups are fair; would tie in nicely to point #1
  • Class make-up should be changed from 2 LF/4 MRF to 3 LF/3 MRF (at least for specific maps)
  • Queue time should be shortened to 60 seconds, max; would tie in nicely to point #1
  • Heavy bot behavior needs to be tweaked, so that they don't go streaking across the map to kill unspotted bombers after Squall Line
  • Heavy bot ADA behavior needs to be tweaked, so that they don't hunt in packs (Light ADA don't do this), AND so that they stay up at the higher elevations (outside of maps where they are the only ADA or where all other ADA are dead)
  • Flights should have a higher percentage chance of seeing +1 tier games (so that they're bottom tier more often), to lessen the impact of flight power

 

I'm sure that I'll think of other things later.


Edited by Trauglodyte, 11 November 2021 - 01:19 PM.


cobra_marksman #3 Posted 11 November 2021 - 01:56 PM

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View PostTrauglodyte, on 11 November 2021 - 08:14 AM, said:

This is what I think:

 

  • Single tier games should be the priority, as it especially helps new and poor players; I can't remember the last time that I was in a single tier game and that is a travesty
  • The MMer should NEVER EVER create a game, with imbalanced tiers; would tie in nicely to point #1
  • There should be a special MMer, for players under a combined certain number of games and winning percentage (done in WoT); it is hard to maintain new players, if they're constantly losing (should also have a Pilot Academy, like WoT)
  • No game should EVER allow a team to have more of one class type than the opposing team (often a problem as a result of flights but it also does randomly happen in non-flight games)
  • 3 node maps should be the outlier, especially for tier 5 and 6 games, as that allows the stronger top tier planes to more easily dominate
  • The MMer should take into account the number of games that a player has been bottom tier and correct that (WoT has this, so that players aren't constantly bottom tier); would tie in nicely to point #1
  • The MMer should 100% mirror the planes that humans are playing, so that matchups are fair; would tie in nicely to point #1
  • Class make-up should be changed from 2 LF/4 MRF to 3 LF/3 MRF (at least for specific maps)
  • Queue time should be shortened to 60 seconds, max; would tie in nicely to point #1
  • Heavy bot behavior needs to be tweaked, so that they don't go streaking across the map to kill unspotted bombers after Squall Line
  • Heavy bot ADA behavior needs to be tweaked, so that they don't hunt in packs (Light ADA don't do this), AND so that they stay up at the higher elevations (outside of maps where they are the only ADA or where all other ADA are dead)
  • Flights should have a higher percentage chance of seeing +1 tier games (so that they're bottom tier more often), to lessen the impact of flight power

 

I'm sure that I'll think of other things later.

Sounds like a Christmas :teethhappy: .. " Wish List

But the last report was, they are not giving out gift this year, and only stocked up on  " Black Coal  "  :B



CoreyPMc #4 Posted 11 November 2021 - 02:17 PM

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How about using win percentage as a factor. Noobies hate being fodder and bad pilots ruin what could be a good match. Keep pilots flying within 5 percentage points of their win percentage and there should be a noticeable difference.

Additionally, having four human heavies on one side vs two heavies + not two heavies = a predictable outcome. Like a match I admittedly lost this morning in my IL-2.



RoIand #5 Posted 11 November 2021 - 02:22 PM

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Again and again I read the suggestion here that the games should only be compiled in "single-tier".
I have not yet formed my own final opinion on this. Because then the super players will never sit in the inferior plane and dominate more violently with their playing strength. On the other hand, of course, a weak player will never be additionally punished by an inferior plane. Somewhere here in the forum I read the suggestion to try this single-tier MM for a limited time - e.g. for a weekend special - and to collect the feedback of the players.
I find this suggestion just ideal and would welcome if WG would tackle it.

 

Then there is the problem with the squadrons. Should they also only get one enemy squadron with the same tier level or can it be +/- 1 again? If +/- 1 applies there, they would be at a disadvantage (sometimes also at an advantage) compared to the solo players. If the single-tier rule is also applied there, a longer waiting time or a very high proportion of bot-only games is to be expected. Is that good? I can't find a fairer solution myself.

 

To avoid the seal-clubber in low-tier there are also already many suggestions here in the forum. My opinion is, you should not forbid even experienced players to fly any low-tier aircraft. Of course, the experienced players must be "somehow" separated from the beginners. If you bring the number of games into the calculator, the seal clubbers would get back into bot-only battles and that would certainly suit them just fine. Maybe it would be enough to rate only battles from T4 upwards in the hall of fame. Again, I personally don't see a silver bullet solution.

 

That's probably lost2's intent on this thread as well.
You can grumble about the MM very well, but no one has a generally accepted better solution so quickly at hand. :(


Edited by RoIand, 11 November 2021 - 02:41 PM.

I have no idea about this game and just shoot down as many red and white planes as possible.


TeamTerrence #6 Posted 11 November 2021 - 04:02 PM

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Alright !! fair match making with equal sides of player skill/winrate and aircraft selection

 

Sounds great and then some jerk posts a video of it

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=_lMhTjCx0Ns

 

 

Splitting teams down the middle in any game only gets it started ....... from there it comes down to the human game plan.

 

Here its all humans but with 2.0 you have bot programming to factor in which can make things interesting.

 



12_inch_Hawk #7 Posted 11 November 2021 - 08:16 PM

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Single tier match making.  Good players play other good players at high tier for higher rewards bad/ new players play bad players at low tier for low reward.  Daily missions for example; 1 token for low tier, 4 token for mid tier, 10 token for high tier.  Everybody can find a tier that is right for them based on their skill level without good players being forced to play low tier and bad players being encouraged to move up the tech tree  before they are ready and aggravating their team by dying more than they kill..  

 

1  vs 1 matches with the rest bots are far better than 4 vs 4 matches with people being carried, unequal tiers, etc.



Dennez #8 Posted 11 November 2021 - 08:53 PM

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i like the idea of matching players according to their win ratio.

 seems like simple and easy to implement idea.

 

and if no one is in your ratio of wins the MM gives you an all bot battle

 

great idea trauglodyte


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CorvusCorvax #9 Posted 12 November 2021 - 03:24 AM

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Well, to start with, the simpler the coding, the better.  Frankly, if it gets too complicated, there is way too much stuff to break, for limited benefit.

 

1.)  Try make the incidence of top tier/bottom tier reasonably even.  This means that there are going to be times when the MM forces T7 to be a top-tier match, potentially artificially.  The other tiers seem to be OK about this, but because of the population in T8, being bottom tier at T7 happens more often than it should. 

2.)  Try and balance the planes by type AND by specialization level, with teams being picked by randomizing which humans get put on red or blue.  Stretches where the same two humans face the same two humans battle after battle after battle is unacceptable.

3.)  It's OK to not have bombers in every battle.  After all, T1/T2 get by just fine with no bombers, so if no human bombers show up, go ahead and put 4 GAA in instead.  Mix it up.  Heck, if one human bomber shows up, go ahead and put in one bot bomber on the other side, and three GAA per side.  But never more than two bombers per side.

4.)  Flights should never get preferential matchmaking.  They are already a multiplier, and they should end up bottom tier at least as often as top tier.  They should never end up as top tier in a tier-mismatched battle.  If there are two single T9 humans, and a single T10 human, a T10 flight plus a T9 human is NOT an appropriate match.  That T10 flight needs to get an all-bot battle, and the T10 + T9 should oppose the two T9s.

 

If those parameters are met, then the matchmaker is complicated enough, without getting crazy.  Yes, it might be nice to see qualifiers like time played or win rate factored in.  But the population is WAY too low for that.

 

It might be nice for the first 500 battles be played with folks who are also less than 500 battles.  The kiddy pool would be separate from the rest of the population - that way, if I am flying my FW-57 for tokens, and I see an Ar-80 on the other team, I know for a fact that I am not clubbing.  The kiddy pool would only be accessible for T1-T3, and only for the first 500 games.  Buy a T4 plane, and you're out of the kiddy pool forever.  Reach 501 battles, you're out of the kiddy pool forever.

Again, that might be nice, but not necessary, while the stuff above it is really sort of a bare minimum to make the MM a bit more equitable.  Not fair, because life and war aren't fair.  But equitable, such that each human that presses the Battle button knows they at least have a shot at seeing a win, won't have a giant string of bottom tiers, and won't end up playing against (and with) the same humans battle after battle.



opala73_leandro #10 Posted 12 November 2021 - 11:29 AM

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in my opinion matchmaker is the worst flaw in this game, it should be exactly as scheduled, 

if there are no compatible players they should just add boots.
this is an example of a battle from yesterday.



opala73_leandro #11 Posted 12 November 2021 - 11:32 AM

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CorvusCorvax #12 Posted 12 November 2021 - 04:48 PM

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View Postopala73_leandro, on 12 November 2021 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yikes.



trikke #13 Posted 12 November 2021 - 04:49 PM

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let me guess        you took their lunch money and left them crying, sitting on the curb

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Trauglodyte #14 Posted 12 November 2021 - 08:01 PM

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View Postopala73_leandro, on 12 November 2021 - 11:32 AM, said:

 

Good thing that XP-54 nerf is ensuring that tier 5s don't see it, with such frequency.  If that change didn't solve it, I might hurt myself!!!

 

/sarcasm



trikke #15 Posted 12 November 2021 - 10:24 PM

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well, i guess we now have the answer to the MM issue, somewhere in this thread

 

and since WG is not at all gun-shy after the 1.x MM debacle the last time they took our suggestions...

 

they'll spend many months contemplating and implementing all our ideas and fix everything perfectly     

 

are we good?   can we just walk away from all this now?      please


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