15 replies to this topic

[losttwo]

Match Maker is always a valid point of frustration for many players. 

Like a game of Tic-Tac-Toe or Microsoft's original Minesweeper. 

Frustration is not necessarily a bad thing since it can reveal problems in a persons

ability to do well in a particular plane. 

It does become a bad thing when it begins weighing on the emotional state of a person. 

Causing them to rage quit, uninstall or just create a feeling of despair that effects daily life. 

Frustration can be revealed in many ways. 

Such as in game chat, hangar PM's. Posting in the forums. 

 

How do you overcome this frustration? 

 

First you have to realize that the Match Maker is a completely random system of ______

( please fill in the blank ) 

What are the unknown factors of match maker :

           You do not know who is playing what tier

           You do not know what aircraft they are flying. 

           You do not know if they are in a flight. 

           You do not know WHEN a human is clicking the battle button. 

     THE BIGGEST UNKNOWN FACTOR :

           You do not know how to fly your plane versus the enemy plane. 

 

How to overcome the frustration of Match Maker : 

          In order not to get back to back matches versus the same player

                       Wait 2 or 3  minutes before clicking battle button.

                       Select a different tier and plane.

                             If they are in a tier 5 then select a tier 3 or tier 7 aircraft. 

                               ( HOPE they do not change tiers ) 

 

BUT what about the biggest unknown factor ? 

          Learning the plane you are flying is the most difficult to overcome. 

          Since you are tossed into a match with UNKNOWN enemy

          The unknown enemy can become narrower when you learn 

          That Match Maker only has a small list of planes to choose from. 

                 How many fighters could you possibly face in a tier 4 battle? 21  ( not including premiums between tier 3-5 ) 

           So you need to learn how to fly your particular plane against 21 various enemy

                 Which of those can you out turn ? 

                 Which of those can you out fly with speed ? 

                 Which of those can you or should you avoid in battle? 

                 Which of those 21 planes can you take in a head on engagement ?

           Something so simple as using a BF-109-B and not turn fighting an I-17

           Spotting the I-17 and being able to attack it from a diving angle and then escaping its turn with your energy and speed.

           Attacking a plane that is already engaged. ( I think they call it " clearing a tail " ) 

 

You also have to realize that there are some planes, such as bombers, that are just designed to be frustrating.

Yet there are ways to limit this frustration. Such as go into a boosting dive out of sector as fast as possible.

My experience with bombers is very limited and FRUSTRATINGLY SO.

 

TO help ease the frustration of Match Maker and the game play an individual needs to realize that 

there are just some planes that are difficult to carry a match towards a win and you are at the mercy of 

either a human player( s) that is also added to your side or THE BOTS. 

 

More about the bots and influencing a positive outcome in a different thread. 

 

There are only 17 possible fighters ( non premium ) if you are flying a tier 10 fighter.

You can look up the heavies, multi-roles, bombers and GAA yourself. 

 

So a recap of the post is : If you are getting frustrated and feel Match Maker is lubing you up for a 

                                          prostate exam. 

                                          take a break 

           

 

 

Edited by losttwo, 14 July 2021 - 11:20 AM.

[InfiniZ3ro]

MM was mean to me today.  Attempting for the thunder achievement this morning and out of 5 matches in bombers and GAA, most of which were T10,  no mines....none at all.  In fact, I mostly got all garrisons or garrisons and airfields.  It was mostly map selection issue but I did manage to lose an all not battle in my Su-10 while scoring double the next highest bot.  Ah well,  enjoy MM when it's agreeable and try not to toss your cpu out the window when it's not.  I have heard that taking a wider stance can make it less painful.  Good post, +1

[Captain_Underpants53]

When I feel picked on by the matchmaker I get irritated and stubborn.  I actually fly, and bomb more, as a result.

[jack_wdw]

When I get angry at MM, i quit playing for the day.
tomorrow will bring a bright new chance to play.

That being said, following adjustments to MM should be fair and easy:

- Take notice of specialist planes, don't go stackin all specialist planes at one side, all potatoes at the other side;
   (this happens a lot, i see a lot of people disconnecting because of this reason)

- Don't go stacking humans in different tiers (eg: blue team has 3 humans all downtiered, red team has 3 humans all uptiered)

- Give the harder-to-fly planes a higher chance to be upper tier in the battle, the more powerful-for-its-tier planes get a higher chance to be lower tier.
- Make flights lower-tier by default, unless there is a flight that can match it at the other side;

Edited by jack_wdw, 14 July 2021 - 01:49 PM.

[Martymart1976]

Sometimes I try and find the weak link on the red team and exploit it. Instead of turning and burning with the red team human specialized top tiered flight, I look elsewhere. If I am seeing the red team constantly circling around one cap, I go where they aren't...I pick out the bots and eliminate them first if possible, they are predictable.  When MM stinks, you have to be more opportunistic and look for and exploit openings.  If you can cap faster than the other side, you win normally. Sometimes yes, they may have top rate planes, but the pilots aren't the smartest...I can usually tell how good a flier that are by keeping an eye on their personal points in battle.  If halfway through the battle, no cheverons, low personal points I may engage.  If the two pilots aren't working together and aren't supporting each other, I may attack if the conditions are right.  You have to think more but you CAN win when your dealt a crappy game.

[losttwo]

jack_wdw, on 14 July 2021 - 08:39 AM, said:

When I get angry at MM, i quit playing for the day.
tomorrow will bring a bright new chance to play.

That being said, following adjustments to MM should be fair and easy:

- Take notice of specialist planes, don't go stackin all specialist planes at one side, all potatoes at the other side;
   (this happens a lot, i see a lot of people disconnecting because of this reason)

- Don't go stacking humans in different tiers (eg: blue team has 3 humans all downtiered, red team has 3 humans all uptiered)

- Give the harder-to-fly planes a higher chance to be upper tier in the battle, the more powerful-for-its-tier planes get a higher chance to be lower tier.
- Make flights lower-tier by default, unless there is a flight that can match it at the other side;

 

This is one of the biggest points of frustration for many people. 

They wish upon a star and have a better chance of winning the lotter than 

changing the Match Maker to fit their expectations. 

Yes we can petition WG to make all the changes we wish for but until then we should adapt overcome and improvise. 

WG has made several changes to match maker over the course of several years. 

Some of those changes have been good to great. 

       No more 3 tier spread ( tier 4-5-6 ) in the same battle. 

       No more 3 man flights. 

       Most recently the elimination of split tier flights. 

Some changes have been disasters. Resulting in 1 hour wait time in the queue. 

1.5.0 I am talking to you. 

 

Martymart1976, on 14 July 2021 - 09:05 AM, said:

Sometimes I try and find the weak link on the red team and exploit it. Instead of turning and burning with the red team human specialized top tiered flight, I look elsewhere. If I am seeing the red team constantly circling around one cap, I go where they aren't...I pick out the bots and eliminate them first if possible, they are predictable.  When MM stinks, you have to be more opportunistic and look for and exploit openings.  If you can cap faster than the other side, you win normally. Sometimes yes, they may have top rate planes, but the pilots aren't the smartest...I can usually tell how good a flier that are by keeping an eye on their personal points in battle.  If halfway through the battle, no cheverons, low personal points I may engage.  If the two pilots aren't working together and aren't supporting each other, I may attack if the conditions are right.  You have to think more but you CAN win when your dealt a crappy game.

 

That is the point of my post and hope others follow suit and add how they adapt, overcome and improvise. 

Good response Marty. 

This game is all about capturing sectors and holding them. 

WG has even supplied a cheat sheet at the beginning of battle on what you should be doing with the current plane. 

How to earn those chevrons. 

For example a tier 9 IL-40 simple rules:

                                  #1 Attack ground targets with forward firing weapons. 

                                  #2 Destroy ground targets with bombs and rockets. 

                                  #3 Avoid engagements and stay at low altitude. 

 Heck if you can stay alive through an entire sortie and get 400 capture points you can even get a medal. 

 How do you stay alive ? avoid the human pilots that are head hunting you. 

 

One of the biggest mistakes I see humans make is that they will focus on destroying another red human player to 

the point that they chase them out of sector and across the map. Only to have the red team capture the sector. 

Sure you got he kill but lost the sector. 

Now that red plane will respawn with full health. Go to a different sector and work on capturing it. 

Even worse is that they respawn above the airfield and to defend it and engage you as you try to recapture the airfield. 

[WhoaBlackBetty]

Losty, what you have done here is very, very good.  Thanks for taking the time to post this.

 

This thread, losty's words, is a working definition of:

 

L2P. GitGud.

[ItsSubmersible]

I started in WOWs so 2/3 tier spreads where not uncommon. I learned to scan what is out there at the start and either avoid, or change up tactics to try to win. I also learned you can't fight MM or RNG. They are what they are so you better just deal with it somehow. I actually don't even look at the tiers now. I just look to see WHO it is and how badly they are going to kick my @ss.

[CorvusCorvax]

WhoaBlackBetty, on 14 July 2021 - 06:38 PM, said:

Losty, what you have done here is very, very good.  Thanks for taking the time to post this.

 

This thread, losty's words, is a working definition of:

 

L2P. GitGud.

So true.  Also true are his words about how to help defeat the matchmaker itself - move two tiers away, take a break.  Even a small break breaks the cycle of playing with/against the same people.  It is nice to have line and/or specialization grinds that are widely separated by tier, so you can switch up when you want.

 

For example, I have five lines and three specialization grinds I'm currently running in T9.  Sigh.  BUT, I have several specialization grinds in T7, and even a couple in T6, if I cared to work on them.  So, if I have trouble in T9, move to T6, maybe.  Or do bomber/HF stuff in Tier X.  Something completely different.

 

If the matchmaker is not making you a good match, switch it up. 

 

All the rest of the stuff losttwo says is ALSO valuable, especially to those climbing the tiers.  But the matchmaker?  No amount of learning can help you avoid the utter stupidity that is sometimes the WG matchmaking system.

[trikke]

far too often, i repeatedly headhunt the uptiered uberguy, rather than work the objectives.     

 

SFMY and IntellectualZ3ro both say to just ignore him

 

i cannot     my brain sez "keep him occupied and it will lessen his impact"       it always ends up with him just getting a bunch of free kills

 

but it also keeps him occupied       i will hurt him if he's not continually scanning for me      i can be a decent pest       sometimes

 

and if he kills me outside a cap, i've lessened his impact       a bit         ubers really dislike being constantly headhunted       a bit

 

today, i squalled two in 10 seconds        because both of them ignored me after my earlier feeble attempts      ftw

 

but it's those very few battles like that, that reinforces what i want to do, rather than what i should be doing     

 

flighting with me should come with combat pay, because of my choices

Edited by trikke, 15 July 2021 - 09:55 PM.

[Wrongway_Corrigan]

losttwo, on 14 July 2021 - 11:17 AM, said:

Match Maker is always a valid point of frustration for many players. 

 

... First you have to realize that the Match Maker is a completely random system of ______

( please fill in the blank ) 

 

I can't "fill in the blank" with my preferred choice of words as that would incur me another chat ban (too many already).

 

Tic-tac-toe is a no-win game that all little kids quit quickly as there is no way to ever win if played correctly. At least in Mind Sweeper there is some logic to the numbers and you can win that one. Here in WoWP there is no real "logic" to the way the MM creates battles. It is simply looking for human players (up to 8 humans per side is what I am told) to fill the 12 pilot roster for both teams and if none are available uses bots to round out the roster. Then the code randomizes the bot "flight parameters" (all the bot AI variables) and starts the battle.

 

But this part of the WoWP code (that which is referred to as the "match maker") is way, way too oversimplified and combined with the huge range on the bot AI flight parameters end up creating more unbalanced battlefield conditions most of the time. Here-in is where most of the frustration lies in the MM. Just knowing that the MM is creating unbalanced battles is the whole crux of the problem with this game. The frustration gets amplified by the fact that with some simple changes this problem can be greatly minimized. And without requiring a ton of costly programming coding... such as:

 

1. Use our profile statistics when assigning human players to a side to not place all the very good pilots all on 1 team. If nothing else just use the win/loss as a basic way for the MM to rank any player's skill. Ideally the Aircraft Type Efficiency should be a factor in deciding which players should be teamed up, but if that gets too complicated code-wise then at least use our win/loss percentage.

2. Decrease the min/max values of the bot flight parameters. A major part of my personal frustration stems from the knowledge that I can take a plane (for discussion sake a fully spec'd out mid-tier fighter), fly a battle, and get HoTS and over 15K personal experience and win. Then in the next battle with the same exact plane, I'm completely massacred by the bots and lose. The range of the bot variables (randomness) is in my opinion (and many other pilots for sure) just too high to be enjoyable. I understand the need for volatility (randomness) in the bot behavior but when it's too great from one battle to the next it is super frustrating.

3. With the understanding of point #2 Wg should be scaling the randomness from tier I on up. What that means to me is that at tier I the bots flight parameter should very greatly from one team to the other (randomness) but then as we move up in tiers the min/max range of the bot variables would decrease so that by tier X the two bot sides would be pretty close to even. Not exactly even but much closer to even than what we get now. Knowing that in every battle I can either do well and blow out the red team and win easily or get massacred by the red bots and lose is a huge source of playing frustration. Reducing this game from a "may the best pilots win" to a "may the best bots win" feeling is fueling our frustration with WoWP and if Wg cared about this they could easily fix this.

 

I've heard from many pilots that Wg insists that we like super high randomness of the bots but based on my own experience here (from a 3-3-20 starting date) I can't understand how Wg arrived at this conclusion. None of my clan members that routinely fly (I fly every day to get a weekly crate on Sunday) have ever stated that having high bot randomness has made this game more enjoyable. None!

 

I do agree with Losttwo that if you matched up against 2 flighted top players, or even just 1 top player, and suffer a devastating defeat to wait 1.5 minutes before jumping in again with the same plane. Probably the plane matchup is no good going up against that pilot. Also, it is standard procedure to move from high to low (and visa-versa) if you lose a few battles in a row at a specific tier. Finally, as Losttwo accurately states if even doing tier shifting is still not getting you any wins and you are stuck in a losing streak then by all means quit and take a 15 or 20 minute break. Some players have commented to me that the server will reset your account in some way and you will have a better chance of winning (no way to confirm... just speculation). Finally, I find certain times of the day better to be playing this game as there are fewer ace pilots to be pitted up against. Early morning works best for me with later in the evening (after 10:00 pm in my time zone... DST right now) not too bad either on the NA server.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wrongway_Corrigan, 27 August 2021 - 01:41 PM.

[losttwo]

Wrongway_Corrigan, on 27 August 2021 - 08:25 AM, said:

 

 

1. Use our profile statistics when assigning human players to a side to not place all the very good pilots all on 1 team. If nothing else just use the win/loss as a basic way for the MM to rank any player's skill. Ideally the Aircraft Type Efficiency should be a factor in deciding which players should be teamed up, but if that gets too complicated code-wise then at least use our win/loss percentage.

2. Decrease the min/max values of the bot flight parameters. A major part of my personal frustration stems from the knowledge that I can take a plane (for discussion sake a fully spec'd out mid-tier fighter), fly a battle, and get HoTS and over 15K personal experience and win. Then in the next battle with the same exact plane, I'm completely massacred by the bots and lose. The range of the bot variables (randomness) is in my opinion (and many other pilots for sure) just too high to be enjoyable. I understand the need for volatility (randomness) in the bot behavior but when it's too great from one battle to the next it is super frustrating.

3. With the understanding of point #2 Wg should be scaling the randomness from tier I on up. What that means to me is that at tier I the bots flight parameter should very greatly from one team to the other (randomness) but then as we move up in tiers the min/max range of the bot variables would decrease so that by tier X the two bot sides would be pretty close to even. Not exactly even but much closer to even than what we get now. Knowing that in every battle I can either do well and blow out the red team and win easily or get massacred by the red bots and lose is a huge source of playing frustration. Reducing this game from a "may the best pilots win" to a "may the best bots win" feeling is fueling our frustration with WoWP and if Wg cared about this they could easily fix this.

 

 

 

 

 

 1) That takes away the randomness of match maker and makes a skill based match system. 

      It would create a system of 50% pilots across the board and or some very lonely all bot battles for the higher skilled.

      Resulting in an 80% pilot being able to maintain an 80%  WR  because he would never face a lower skilled pilot and only bots. 

      This is where CHAOS THEORY is most comes into play.

     

2) There is already a limit on the bots for max and min values. 

     The values for the bots are the fully upgraded " elite " type of plane

      Skill level of either " Standard " Warrior " or " Veteran "  and not sure of the tier separation. 

 

3) As you increase your tier level your playing should improve.

    As your tier level and amount of games  increases your understanding of the game should improve 

   By tier 10 you should understand enough of how to beat any all bot match based on your plane type, map knowledge and function key ability. 

   By tier 10 you should know instinctively what each bot will do. 

   BUT all of it is based on frequency of playing and muscle memory

 

You mention a 15K battle but still losing to the red team. 

This game is not about gaining 15K to win. 

This game is about capturing sectors and holding them the longest. 

That is where you are failing to understand the game. 

It is not about high score

 

 

[CorvusCorvax]

Wrongway_Corrigan, on 27 August 2021 - 01:25 PM, said:

 

Then the code randomizes the bot "flight parameters" (all the bot AI variables) and starts the battle.

 

Quote, from the developer notes or other official WG sources, that this particular thing happens.  Because if you can't, it's just another lie.

The bots are filled out according to three skill levels.  T1-3, beginner.  T4-5, warrior.  T6-10, veteran.  That's it.  There are no subclass of uber-bots within these three skill classes.  They are all flying elite planes, and have a specific composition per side, per battle type.

 

Instead of fabricating stuff and spewing nonsense, you could actually read about how it is done.  Ready to read something?

https://wiki.wargami...tchmaking_(WoWP)

 

There.  Now, unless you have insider programmer knowledge about how the MM works, and can prove it, stop telling the stupid lie about bot parameters.

 

There aren't too many folks who play the game that are wholly satisfied with how the MM works.  But starting from a position of facts would be a good start to the discussion.  If you can't do that, you're headed for another account ban.  Are you even curious as to why your alt accounts keep getting nuked?  It's not because you are an edgelord, bro.
 

[wylleEcoyote]

trikke, on 15 July 2021 - 04:47 PM, said:

far too often, i repeatedly headhunt the uptiered uberguy, rather than work the objectives.     

 

SFMY and IntellectualZ3ro both say to just ignore him

 

i cannot     my brain sez "keep him occupied and it will lessen his impact"       it always ends up with him just getting a bunch of free kills

 

but it also keeps him occupied       i will hurt him if he's not continually scanning for me      i can be a decent pest       sometimes

 

and if he kills me outside a cap, i've lessened his impact       a bit         ubers really dislike being constantly headhunted       a bit

 

today, i squalled two in 10 seconds        because both of them ignored me after my earlier feeble attempts      ftw

 

but it's those very few battles like that, that reinforces what i want to do, rather than what i should be doing     

 

flighting with me should come with combat pay, because of my choices

Trikke has a point here.  A dangerously Good player can flip a cap in less than a minute. 
This would imply that odds are they will kill you in one pass that should take maybe less than 10 seconds to complete from "Oh, there's a target" to "now, whos next?".  Like one deals with any other bot.
And if that is the case when so and so deleted you ... then the best thing to do is to be more mindful of the minimap and be elsewhere. 
 Buuuuut ....
If you manage to make them work for it and take 15 20 or even 30 seconds before they kill you then you have actually reduced their overall effectiveness to a certain degree. That is at least 2 other planes or ground strikes that they did Not manage to get around to doing even if they inevitably kill you. 

Those are 20 seconds where they arent really doing anything useful. Heck the cap they were fighting in may have been flipped by something else and the red team is already going elsewhere...
Its like they were stuck in a re-spawn the moment they chose to engage you. 
(On the plus side: without the time spent on the return trip. On the negative side: without the full reset of boost meter, less hit points than when they started. Some of their consumables are on cooldown and they may be stuck with a not quite fully repaired module or two.)  Whereas you have a fresh plane at the cost of earning that all-the-kills-no-death-and-win epic achievement medal you probably weren't going to get in this battle anyway.

Another take away from that is, "Oh geez if it took Wylle THAT long to kill me!"
Maybe i dont suck so hard at this after all. 
If I tune up my equipment in this plane a little bit ... . Heck if i remember to Zig when i should Zigging and to Zag when im supposed to Zag ; it will be Wylle going down in flames. 
Heck ill be able to take on anyone!   
<a wild desert786 appears> ....  "ok. maybe not everyone  "

Edited by wylleEcoyote, 29 August 2021 - 12:41 AM.

[trikke]

wylleEcoyote, on 28 August 2021 - 08:40 PM, said:

Trikke has a point here.  

 

we don't really see that all typed out in black and white very often, do we...

 

printed and framed and hung

[ItsSubmersible]

trikke, on 09 September 2021 - 03:32 PM, said:

 

we don't really see that all typed out in black and white very often, do we...

 

printed and framed and hung

Now the bots are going to start using it!