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First win = quitting?

quit quitter tier first mission bonus grind map disconnect

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Leadlooser #1 Posted 01 May 2021 - 10:04 AM

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Daily aircraft specific first win=reason for tapping out of a game?

 

Playing a challenging grind, on an unfavorable map, participant chemistry, lesser tiered, against known (or otherwise) GREATS, etc. may solicit a tap-out to keep the ‘daily victory multiplier’ mission available for those struggling with their flying goals.

 

Of course there are innumerable reasons for players to disconnect, but this question remains.

 

Choosing a specific game result to use as one’s ‘daily-double’ may mitigate this (negating further attempts within the daily time requisites), but how would that play out with the UBER-Players?



SpiritFoxMY #2 Posted 01 May 2021 - 10:51 AM

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No pilot worth his salt would quit, regardless of reason. I take special pride in winning when teammates quit. Hopefully I make them lose their daily X 

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


losttwo #3 Posted 01 May 2021 - 12:24 PM

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I learned years ago not to get emotionally attached to what others do 

 To not allow it to control or affect me 

 Anger comes from failed expectations of others. 

Weather it is from someone not wishing you a Happy Birthday to not being on time 

for work. 

Perhaps their performance in some game is not up to your expectations.

 

It is like that best buddy standing next to you telling jokes all day to cheer everyone up.

While the reality is. His life is falling apart and he is depressed beyond reason. 

Sad and failing he plants a 45 into his soul or a needle into his arm. 

You wake up getting dressed for their funeral. 

 

It is or should or should I say this is a game. IT HAS NO IMPORTANCE IN THE SCHEME OF LIFE.

What others do and others goals are not the same as mine. 

The time they have to play is not the same schedule I have set aside for my play time. 

 

As for me: If I go back to hangar you can be sure the reason I give you will not meet your standards of validity.

 

 

 



trikke #4 Posted 01 May 2021 - 02:39 PM

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excellent post, LT      outta plus 1s      owe ya
Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore       

Sink_Stuff #5 Posted 01 May 2021 - 05:28 PM

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I bailed on three games yesterday. One day, maybe I will be such a great player that I will never bail on games. But right now, I bail on games. It's way less frequent than when I first started playing. The reason I bailed on three games was because of the following reasons

 

1. First game I was grinding a stock plane against a top flight and there were 4 human players on each side. Halfway into the battle I realize that it's going to be a loss no matter what I do. I hit the tab key and I see that all the other human players on my team are doing nothing at all and have 2k or less personal points halfway into the game. I bailed because I didn't want to waste my time anymore trying to win an unwinnable game. Sun Tsu says that you only fight battle that you know you can win.

 

2. Second game I bailed on was me in a bomber plane trying to once again get this garbage bomber mission done for some special equipment. However, there were two specialized enemy bombers on the other side that were owning the map and I was getting shot down repeatedly by bomber hunters on the enemy team. Once again i knew the game was hopeless and because the mission had a win condition I bailed for two reasons. First reason was to try to get into another bomber quickly to dodge these specialized bomber players in the next game (it worked of course). The second reason was it was taking way way too long to try to finish this "win condition" mission and I was getting frustrated. 

 

3. The third bail was much like the first. I had abandoned the stupid bomber mission as not worth it at all. But once again there were a bunch of players on my team doing nothing all game and it was another hopeless battle. 

 

Conclusion: So to answer your question, no, I didn't bail on any games because of a 3X win. That wasn't even a consideration at all. I simply was trying to complete a mission and didn't want to waste more time on losses or I was playing with a bunch of garbage players and the battle was nothing but a complete waste of my time to try and win. So, your idea of a selective choice of which battle to apply the win condition too would have made no difference. Not only that, but people already don't care about winning. So giving them the choice of which battle to post this win condition too will only make the problem of bailing worse, not better. So no, the win condition and bonuses do need to apply to wins and the player should be encouraged to always win and they should not be able to choose which battle to apply the conditions on. 

 

What all wargaming games need is a skill based match maker. The flaw is not the win condition. The flaw with the game is being forced to try to win against top players with speced planes when the only people on your team are total trash. The problem with this game is that the random mode can decide the battle for you before it ever even starts. And yes, I will continue to bail on games occasionally when impossible missions with garbage random fails continue to do nothing but waste my time. Want to blame someone? Blame wargaming for making a totally unbalanced match to begin with. As you can see, I didn't bail on a game because someone else bailed. That was something I used to do because I was new to the game and thought it was hopeless without the other probably better player. Now I don't care if someone else bails early. I often win the game anyway when someone else on my team bails. But sometimes it's hopeless even if they don't bail. 

 

Sun Tsu is right, do not fight battles you know you will lose. It's true in life as well as the game. It's wargaming that is setting up people to fail with this random mode. Don't blame the player for doing the right thing and bailing on a situation that would never have happened in a better game with a proper skill based match maker. 


Edited by Sink_Stuff, 01 May 2021 - 05:38 PM.


Sink_Stuff #6 Posted 01 May 2021 - 06:39 PM

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People don't understand the genius of Sun Tzu when he says, "Don't fight battles that you know you can't win". Most people don't understand that this rule is from hundreds or thousands of years of fighting wars. This rule was passed down and perfected from master to student. Sun Tzu was just the first one to codify it and right it down that we know of. The key points are this:

 

1. It's a personal rule as individual as the person reading it.

2. It's situational.

3. It's information and skill dependent.

 

When I first started playing this game I bailed a lot. I did this because I "thought" the battle was hopeless. I didn't understand Sun Tzu correctly. He says don't fight battles that you KNOW you can't win. I was bailing on battles that I "thought" i couldn't win. I was wrong. So I asked tons of questions, watched videos, and took a ton of advice from people like SpirtFox and others (still do take the advice and thank you for offering it). So I learned to try harder and do more. I started winning more, but I would still bail on games too early. Now, it's almost certainly halfway into the battle before I bail. I never bail anymore just because someone else did. Heck, I've even won battles when two other people on my team bailed. But right now, I'm only a 60% recent win rate player. So even though I bail on battles that are, to me, certain losses, someone like Spirit might not think they are certain losses. Who's right? Well most likely he is. But that doesn't matter does it? Let me explain the genius of Sun Tsu and hundreds or thousands of years of war knowledge. 

 

Do you ever KNOW anything for certain? No, you don't. So how can Sun Tzu say don't fight battles that you know you can't win? Shouldn't you always try if you don't know?

 

The answer my friends is in the mind. If you THINK that you KNOW the battle is a certain loss then that's the reason you don't fight it. You are already defeated in your mind and that alone makes fighting the battle probably a loss. Sun Tzu is not wrong. If you "KNOW" that you are going to lose then that also means that you "Think" you are going to lose, which means, that in your mind you have already lost. This is the genius of Sun Tsu. So it doesn't matter if the battle is a certain win for Spirit. If I think it's a certain loss for me then I should bail on it.

 

So the problem is knowledge and skill. I need to continue to work on getting more knowledge and skill in this game and then maybe I will not 'KNOW" a battle is a loss when it really isn't if I played better. The struggle is trying to be as good a player as you can. This is what I have always continued to do and it is paying off. When I first came to this forum as a 45% player with less than 500 games everyone gave me nothing but crap. People still give me crap. But now, I am doing better than about 40% of the people who regularly post on this forum. Getting better is a process.

 

So don't get mad when people bail. They are doing the right thing for them. They simply may not understand what is winnable and what isn't. But it doesn't matter. If they believe that they know that it's a loss they should bail. That is the way.


Edited by Sink_Stuff, 01 May 2021 - 09:40 PM.


Sink_Stuff #7 Posted 01 May 2021 - 06:57 PM

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Continued from above......

 

Why is it important that they bail if they know it's a loss?

 

It's because the western mindset of fighting till the certain defeat is wrong. It trains people to play badly and not care if they win or how. It's either the 45% player who never bails from a game or the 80% player. The difference is the 80% player knows how to win and will always try to win because they think they KNOW that it can be won. The 45% player simply rushes into everything and either loses or wins based on the enemy they face. That is the difference. But the one who is wrong is not the player who bailed. The one who is wrong is the 45% player who stayed just because they have this idea of never bailing, which is just saying they don't care if they lose.

 

You want people to bail because that means that they are making the calculation on what fights they should take and what fights they should not take. This is central to this entire game. This is a flight game where you are mostly fighting one on one battles. Learning to judge what battles you can and can't win is critical. It's the 45% player who never does this. The guy bailing is making this calculation. They just may not be a good enough player to make a proper calculation. But that is a better player than the 45% player who never makes this calculation. The guy bailing will get better. He will learn. He will understand more what can and can't be won. The 45% player will always be a 45% player after a time because they never bother to learn. 

 

This is the reason why Sun Tzu includes this rule. It is because the judgement of what you can and can't win is central to any true victory. The 45% player who stays just to never bail, is doing it wrong. 


Edited by Sink_Stuff, 01 May 2021 - 06:58 PM.


Sink_Stuff #8 Posted 01 May 2021 - 07:10 PM

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So the real question here isn't about is it right to bail. Sun Tsu answers that question already. The dilemma comes when people feel that I and everyone else has an obligation to see the battle out and not bail because it is a game. People have a problem with others bailing because they believe that the other player has an obligation to continue to fight even though it's a certain loss. So lets address the real monster in the room.

 

If other players have no obligation to learn the game and get better at it then I don't feel that i have any obligation to them to continue to fight a certain loss. You owe me nothing and i owe you NOTHING. 

 

Except.......

 

When i see players on my team that I know are good, contributing, long time players who are trying to win the game, that's when I stay even though I know it's a loss. I don't owe you this. I just do this because i see someone else trying to win and I want to help them. But if I don't know them or recognize them and they are obviously not trying hard to win, then yeah, i',m gone. 

 

No one has an obligation to stay in the battle. Sorry, but that's the truth. I am not going to try to carry losers who are doing way worse than me. But I will try to help players who are obviously busting hump to win. That is why even though I played like 50 games these past two days, I only bailed from 3 yesterday.   


Edited by Sink_Stuff, 01 May 2021 - 07:11 PM.


ItsSubmersible #9 Posted 01 May 2021 - 08:51 PM

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I was in one of those games you bailed on. We had a slow start but made it close at the end. Shoulda stuck around, it may have made the difference in win/loss.

Buddha_13 #10 Posted 01 May 2021 - 10:23 PM

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I always play till to the end unless I got disconnected by the server, even then I'll jump back in.

I don't like to leave my teammates out on a limb by bailing, as I don't want them to do the same to me.  Maybe if the other 11 planes are bots, I might bail but still probably not.

OTOH, I understand people's reasons for playing differ...I play to play & not overly concerned with win/loss.

As in football & basketball, lots of games are won at buzzer or whistle time.

defeat.jpgcase in point, we lost this game, but I did alright, for me, this screen shot is a keepsake.

At the end of the day, each game is around 10 min., just stick it out till the end and do your best.



HoujuuNue #11 Posted 01 May 2021 - 10:30 PM

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You are expected to stay in battle until you can no longer respawn.  It's unfortunate that people think they can just leave the battle because wowp doesn't doesn't penalize you like the other games and only takes actions through player reports.

teeaichsee #12 Posted 02 May 2021 - 12:51 AM

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 2nd time

 

 its only a game,let em kwit. ive smoked since i was 14 im 59 now be 60 may 22 and still going strong, guys half my age will have trouble beating me in a mile footrace,what im tryin ta say here is my momma didnt raise no kwitter.  quiters suck.so i got less sucky players on my team good ridance.      i no know i speel bahd.     got to have alot of kwitters wives cuz they   QUIT!  

me and my WarChicken will never quit.i will go down cursing and flippin u the bird. i promise

 

 


Edited by teeaichsee, 02 May 2021 - 01:03 AM.


Leadlooser #13 Posted 02 May 2021 - 03:44 AM

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Thanks all for the healthy congress.  The original OP regarded the validity of preserving the first win for a specific in-game plane.  It seems as though a nerve has been unwittingly struck.

 

Not well versed in The Art of War – Sun Tzu, winning is an exceptionally flexible term.  What a player’s goals are likely defined as “winning.”  If one thinks the game is un-fun, every battle is a loss.

 

As mentioned at the OP start, “Playing a challenging grind, on an unfavorable map, participant chemistry, lesser tiered, against known (or otherwise) GREATS, etc. may solicit a tap-out to keep the ‘daily victory multiplier,…” - Leadlooser

 

“So, your idea of a selective choice of which battle to apply the win condition too would have made no difference. Not only that, but people already don't care about winning. So giving them the choice of which battle to post this win condition too will only make the problem of bailing worse, not better. So no, the win condition and bonuses do need to apply to wins and the player should be encouraged to always win and they should not be able to choose which battle to apply the conditions on.” – SIC – Sink_Stuff.  Thank you sincerely for that opinion.

 

“What all wargaming games need is a skill based match maker. The flaw is not the win condition. The flaw with the game is being forced to try to win against top players with speced planes when the only people on your team are total trash.” – SIC - Sink_Stuff.  How is ‘skill’ measured?  As aforementioned, the variables in-game occlude generic ‘skill-based matchmaking.’  Furthermore, such an idea may further shatter matchmaking.

 

If one quits a battle, said one can no longer influence that particular battle.  I doubt that Sun Tzu would disagree.

 

losttwo and teeaichsee mentioned something on the line of the transience of gaming – it’s just a game, frivolous and volatile, but not life-wrecking.

 

What is winning – pixels, stats, esteem?  Play to PLAY.  Enjoy it or don’t play.  Summarized: enjoy or quit.

 

 



losttwo #14 Posted 02 May 2021 - 04:00 AM

    which way do we go?

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Sun Tzu never played a Wargasming computer game.

If he had then his philosophy would be different.

 

Failure is an opportunity for learning a lesson. 

 



Captain_Underpants53 #15 Posted 02 May 2021 - 04:00 AM

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View PostLeadlooser, on 01 May 2021 - 10:44 PM, said:

Thanks all for the healthy congress.  The original OP regarded the validity of preserving the first win for a specific in-game plane.  It seems as though a nerve has been unwittingly struck.

 

Not well versed in The Art of War – Sun Tzu, winning is an exceptionally flexible term.  What a player’s goals are likely defined as “winning.”  If one thinks the game is un-fun, every battle is a loss.

 

As mentioned at the OP start, “Playing a challenging grind, on an unfavorable map, participant chemistry, lesser tiered, against known (or otherwise) GREATS, etc. may solicit a tap-out to keep the ‘daily victory multiplier,…” - Leadlooser

 

“So, your idea of a selective choice of which battle to apply the win condition too would have made no difference. Not only that, but people already don't care about winning. So giving them the choice of which battle to post this win condition too will only make the problem of bailing worse, not better. So no, the win condition and bonuses do need to apply to wins and the player should be encouraged to always win and they should not be able to choose which battle to apply the conditions on.” – SIC – Sink_Stuff.  Thank you sincerely for that opinion.

 

“What all wargaming games need is a skill based match maker. The flaw is not the win condition. The flaw with the game is being forced to try to win against top players with speced planes when the only people on your team are total trash.” – SIC - Sink_Stuff.  How is ‘skill’ measured?  As aforementioned, the variables in-game occlude generic ‘skill-based matchmaking.’  Furthermore, such an idea may further shatter matchmaking.

 

If one quits a battle, said one can no longer influence that particular battle.  I doubt that Sun Tzu would disagree.

 

losttwo and teeaichsee mentioned something on the line of the transience of gaming – it’s just a game, frivolous and volatile, but not life-wrecking.

 

What is winning – pixels, stats, esteem?  Play to PLAY.  Enjoy it or don’t play.  Summarized: enjoy or quit.

 

 


:medal:


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Leadlooser #16 Posted 02 May 2021 - 06:09 AM

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Seems like Sink_Stuff plays for affirmation.  Yea!  Sink_Stuff is the best player ever!!

 

"But it's not about his stats as a player. It's the fact that he (who) professes to have a "Never quit" attitude while also never improving." - SIC 

 

"Without improving you might as well quit." - SIC This is where Sink_Stuff evaluates themselves theoretically.  Please play to PLAY.



Captain_Underpants53 #17 Posted 02 May 2021 - 06:22 AM

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View PostLeadlooser, on 02 May 2021 - 01:09 AM, said:

Seems like Sink_Stuff plays for affirmation.  Yea!  Sink_Stuff is the best player ever!!

 

"But it's not about his stats as a player. It's the fact that he (who) professes to have a "Never quit" attitude while also never improving." - SIC 

 

"Without improving you might as well quit." - SIC This is where Sink_Stuff evaluates themselves theoretically.  Please play to PLAY.

He dumps on players at every opportunity.  Not many listen to him.


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losttwo #18 Posted 02 May 2021 - 01:00 PM

    which way do we go?

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View PostSink_Stuff, on 02 May 2021 - 02:53 AM, said:

. It's the            fact that I am NOT               going to bust my butt            trying to carry players            like him when I know the game is a loss no matter what.

 

And yet you want to claim that i should not bail on games when it's a total loss because I am supposed to have some obligation to someone who never gets better at this game? Hell no. I owe him nothing and he owes me nothing. 

 

Stop trying to play other peoples games, play your game.

Stop allowing people to own you emotionally. 

 

When you do this you will find a new happiness and joy about playing the game. 

You might even learn how to carry a match 

 



losttwo #19 Posted 02 May 2021 - 01:17 PM

    which way do we go?

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Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over other players. 

             our gaming had become unmanageable. 

Step 2: Came to believe that We can only change the way we play

Step 3: Made a decision to play my own game and not worry about others.

Step 4 : Made a fearless and searching inventory of our gaming habits.

Step 5: Admitted to ourselves and posted in the forum the exact nature of our wrongs.

Step 6 : We were ready to remove these defects. 

Step 7: We tried harder in games and kept our mouth shut,

Step 8 : Made a list of all players that actually dominate the game

Step 9 : Started watching my replays to see my mistakes and began trying to emulate the dominate players. 

Step 10: Continued to watch my replays and find my faults, 

Step 11: Continued to learn different planes and play styles towards improving. 

Step 12 : Having had an epiphany as a result of these steps and discovered it is a game

                ONLY A GAME. It has no emotional value or attachment.  



teeaichsee #20 Posted 02 May 2021 - 02:15 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 02 May 2021 - 08:17 AM, said:

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over other players. 

             our gaming had become unmanageable. 

Step 2: Came to believe that We can only change the way we play

Step 3: Made a decision to play my own game and not worry about others.

Step 4 : Made a fearless and searching inventory of our gaming habits.

Step 5: Admitted to ourselves and posted in the forum the exact nature of our wrongs.

Step 6 : We were ready to remove these defects. 

Step 7: We tried harder in games and kept our mouth shut,

Step 8 : Made a list of all players that actually dominate the game

Step 9 : Started watching my replays to see my mistakes and began trying to emulate the dominate players. 

Step 10: Continued to watch my replays and find my faults, 

Step 11: Continued to learn different planes and play styles towards improving. 

Step 12 : Having had an epiphany as a result of these steps and discovered it is a game

                ONLY A GAME. It has no emotional value or attachment.  

hello my name is dennis and im an warplaneaholic! hic!     now wheres the donuts and coffee?     thats was good your funny

 


Edited by teeaichsee, 02 May 2021 - 02:16 PM.





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