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The matchmaking does NOT tell the whole story.


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SkyWolf__WM #41 Posted 14 December 2021 - 01:36 AM

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View Postcrzyhawk, on 13 December 2021 - 05:26 PM, said:

When you have a high alitiude bomber with a forest full of PVE targets to attack, that a team of light fighters can't flip...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the light fighter team isn't going to win regardless of what the humans do.  The only hope is to get heavy fighter bots on the bomber, and 90% of the time you get some low altitude MR saying "I'll go get him!" and spent teh whole game stalling out. your heavy fighter bots do nothing productive.

 

As a former intelligence analyst whose job was to analyze data patterns, we'll have to disagree on my qualifications to determine whether a pattern is established or not.

 

Then maybe you should be the one flying the heavies? No one is forcing you to fly light fighters. Or fly the hated bomber sometimes. :hiding:


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Trauglodyte #42 Posted 14 December 2021 - 01:39 PM

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In defense of Crzy, I think we all can appreciate the angst.  The one thing, that I have always felt with WarGaming games, is that sense of "loneliness".  It was a weird feeling, especially in WoT where every game had 30 live humans in it.  But, you realize that, unlike physical games (e.g. basketball), people just care less and do less.  I approach my gaming the same exact way that I'd approach a pick-up game, on the court.  I strive, for perfection while knowing that I'm FAR from it.  But, I want everyone to try to win because winning is fun and fun is what matters.  You can have fun and lose.  But having fun and winning is so much more satisfying.  Now, imagine if you got into a game and your team was 5 people just like you versus 5 Michael Jordans.  How much would that suck?  Taking that a bit further, what if you had 4 in-their-prime Hall of Fame players on your team but all 4 played at 1% of their ability and cared more about looking at their iWatch during the game.  THAT is the loneliness, to which I speak.  The randomness, in on-line games, creates an atmosphere where you're wasting time in queue, wasting time in loading in, and then possibly wasting time playing because you rolled double 1s and the opposing team rolled a natural 20.  I had a game the other night where I had a specced EF on my side.  5 minutes into the battle and the dumbo EF player STILL hadn't flipped the garrison to which they went, at the start of the game.  Said player finished with less than 2k PPs.

 

There is enough random stupidity, in this game, that it'll drive us all into an early grave.  There should be tighter controls around it but there aren't.  Hence, we deal with what we're given and try our best to change the course of the inevitable.  What I take, from this conversation, is that it is possible and you should try until there is no more avenue left.  I'm all for people leaving the impossible "It has been 2 minutes and we got 5 capped for *reasons*" games.  But, I'm also all for people digging down deep, reassessing what is going on, and making moves to try to turn the tables.  It CAN be done and there isn't anyone on this board that hasn't done it.  So, keep trying!  Gnash your teeth in the  process but keep trying.



CorvusCorvax #43 Posted 06 August 2022 - 06:35 PM

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Necro!


Flying with ItsSubmersible today, me in my MiG-15, and he in his IL-40.  On the other team, P.1102 and SeaHawk.  Central Airbase, single Mining Plant, Command Center, two Garrisons on an Albion map.  SeaHawk guy drops immediately.

We win, but only barely - I hold the Airbase while ItsSubmersible runs around capping.  The poor P.1102 guy plays a whale of a battle - HotS, Winged Legend, 19k PP - he's a machine.  My strategy for the battle was to own the middle so that the red MRF would beat their heads against the Airbase, and not bug a certain Russian GAA flyer.  Also, since our MRF aren't goofing around trying to take the central Airbase, they are free to cap stuff in the interminably slow way that they do.

If I had been the Seahawk guy, I would have left the middle to the MiG-15 dude, and headhunted the IL-40  If they aren't capping with him, my P.1102 can run around the outside doing that ABC thing that German GAAs do so well.  Holding the Mine and the Command Center would have made the battle pretty much over.

Don't give up.  The battle is only lost when it's lost.  But if you don't even try, well, for you, the battle was lost before you even loaded in.
 


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jack_wdw #44 Posted 09 August 2022 - 08:48 AM

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I never quit at the beginning of a battle, I never quit before first respawn, but like crzyhawk states sometimes you really don't have to be a rocket scientist to see where the battle is heading.
These days i tend to sit out those battles a lot more, because they removed the win-conditions for a lot of the daily missions.

So when i get shot down for the first time, i do a little assessment (how does my score hold up vs those of the other human teammates, what's the current capping status of our team, how many AFK's in my team?, what impact can my plane/other teammates  have on this map)
Nowadays, i mostly stay in lopsided battles and try and focus to work on the daily missions, but before (when win-conditions were still there for daily missions) i would bail (leave to Hangar, not leave my plane afk in battle )at first respawn.
The only time I might bail now, is when i get MM'ed for a couple of games in a row (+3) with the same sorry lot at my side.
I know i can sit out the battle and then wait for 2 minutes before hitting battle or go 2 tiers higher or lower for the next battle to achieve the same, but imo it takes too much time to achieve the same result.

Edited by jack_wdw, 09 August 2022 - 08:49 AM.

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lnnokenity #45 Posted 09 August 2022 - 01:51 PM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 09 August 2022 - 08:48 AM, said:


The only time I might bail now, is when i get MM'ed for a couple of games in a row (+3) with the same sorry lot at my side.
 

I have noticed this a few times.  Is there a reason that the same group of players are put on the same side game after game?  Random matchmaker would probably not do this.


Edited by lnnokenity, 09 August 2022 - 01:54 PM.

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SkyWolf__WM #46 Posted 09 August 2022 - 08:20 PM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 09 August 2022 - 03:48 AM, said:

I never quit at the beginning of a battle, I never quit before first respawn, but like crzyhawk states sometimes you really don't have to be a rocket scientist to see where the battle is heading.
These days i tend to sit out those battles a lot more, because they removed the win-conditions for a lot of the daily missions.

So when i get shot down for the first time, i do a little assessment (how does my score hold up vs those of the other human teammates, what's the current capping status of our team, how many AFK's in my team?, what impact can my plane/other teammates  have on this map)
Nowadays, i mostly stay in lopsided battles and try and focus to work on the daily missions, but before (when win-conditions were still there for daily missions) i would bail (leave to Hangar, not leave my plane afk in battle )at first respawn.
The only time I might bail now, is when i get MM'ed for a couple of games in a row (+3) with the same sorry lot at my side.
I know i can sit out the battle and then wait for 2 minutes before hitting battle or go 2 tiers higher or lower for the next battle to achieve the same, but imo it takes too much time to achieve the same result.

 

I NEVER QUIT. I'm enough of a liability for my team without bailing on them like a little female hound. 


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neverqwit #47 Posted 09 August 2022 - 08:54 PM

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Never quit !    Its just not attractive. I personally would never quit a battle.

When I can see that my team is going to lose,Thats when I go into-- I'm going headon with every gun blazing and ram the heck out of every red plane I see mode--Or make it to the red teams spawn point and just start harvesting points.Another thing is use the rest of the battle like a training room and just practice stuff.But hey If quiting is your thing then by all means quit,Whatever makes the game fun to YOU is all that matters.



XBK #48 Posted 10 August 2022 - 12:19 PM

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View Postlnnokenity, on 09 August 2022 - 03:51 PM, said:

I have noticed this a few times.  Is there a reason that the same group of players are put on the same side game after game?  Random matchmaker would probably not do this.

Yet it is completely random. The reason is simple - that same group enters the queue at about the same time, and gets matched together repeatedly. Same thing as entering lobbies on a count, which allows people to get into the same match together in many other games.



CorvusCorvax #49 Posted 10 August 2022 - 01:53 PM

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View PostXBK, on 10 August 2022 - 04:19 AM, said:

Yet it is completely random. The reason is simple - that same group enters the queue at about the same time, and gets matched together repeatedly. Same thing as entering lobbies on a count, which allows people to get into the same match together in many other games.

I think the issue isn't that folks all get put into the same battle.  That one actually makes sense.  It's that the team make-ups, from a human standpoint, remain the same, battle after battle.  For example, Sam, Fred, Joe, Bob, Mary and Ann all click about the same time.  Red gets Sam, Joe, and Bob.  Blue gets Fred, Ann, and Mary.

The next battle, Red gets Sam, Joe, and Bob, again.  And the battle after that, Sam, Joe, and Bob on red yet again.  I, personally, was opposite the same guy for 10 battles in a row when I was grinding my Tempest for specialization - and we were not the only humans playing.  So, it is not that these 6 humans are in the same battle, it is that they somehow get sorted onto the same teams battle after battle after battle.  Which is nice if your team has the larger talent pool, but it is SUPER frustrating when you're a potato, and you're still the most talented of the humans on your team.

I will suggest to you that this particular MM quirk leads to fewer overall battles played - people get tired of repeatedly trying to carry the potatoey-est of potatoes, so they find something better to do, like clean a toilet or watch paint dry.  You get the idea.

The priority that the MM decides for any individual player must have some sort of coding, because that is the only way out of 6 Tier VIII human players, three of them get assigned to one team, three the other team, and it happens that way over and over and over again, with no variation.  If I am doing my math right, there should be 6 different team configurations, if the MM was random.  The odds of the very same combo happening even twice in a row is pretty low.  Three times?  Exceedingly low.  Yet this thing happens often.


Edited by CorvusCorvax, 10 August 2022 - 01:55 PM.

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tdave1953 #50 Posted 10 August 2022 - 04:18 PM

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Corvus: about repeated teams/opponents--do you think factors such as specialization, aircraft type are involved in the repetition?

CorvusCorvax #51 Posted 10 August 2022 - 08:50 PM

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View Posttdave1953, on 10 August 2022 - 08:18 AM, said:

Corvus: about repeated teams/opponents--do you think factors such as specialization, aircraft type are involved in the repetition?

I do not.  Often enough, all the spec birds will be on one team.  Specialization is obviously not a factor.

But the idea that the same two guys can be assigned opposite teams 10 battles in a row when they aren't the only humans playing - how does that happen without some sort of programming?  That's not a rhetorical question, but a real one - if there is a way it happens due to something other than programming, I'd love to hear it.  Because if I know what that "thing" is, I can do something to circumvent it (other than waiting another three minutes to avoid that batch of players altogether...)


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tdave1953 #52 Posted 11 August 2022 - 12:55 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 10 August 2022 - 03:50 PM, said:

But the idea that the same two guys can be assigned opposite teams 10 battles in a row when they aren't the only humans playing - how does that happen without some sort of programming?  That's not a rhetorical question, but a real one - if there is a way it happens due to something other than programming, I'd love to hear it.  Because if I know what that "thing" is, I can do something to circumvent it (other than waiting another three minutes to avoid that batch of players altogether...)

 

One of the ongoing mysteries of this game for me (among many) is how my experience often doesn't line up with what others are dealing with. I've never really experienced an extended run of "same team" humans like that. Certainly I've had a number of consecutive battles with the same humans but both the good players and the potatoes are typically swapping teams. Yes, there are certainly times when I get a run of two or three games against one opponent--who is typically an excellent pilot in a specialized plane. There are a couple of players, for example, who I don't think have ever been teammates.

 

I almost always fly specialized planes, though, hence my question about what might account for why my experience isn't matching what others' describe. I wondered if the "same team" issue may be more frequent for players who fly unspecialized planes as they grind the lines.

 

 

 



CorvusCorvax #53 Posted 11 August 2022 - 04:54 PM

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View Posttdave1953, on 11 August 2022 - 04:55 AM, said:

 

One of the ongoing mysteries of this game for me (among many) is how my experience often doesn't line up with what others are dealing with. I've never really experienced an extended run of "same team" humans like that. Certainly I've had a number of consecutive battles with the same humans but both the good players and the potatoes are typically swapping teams. Yes, there are certainly times when I get a run of two or three games against one opponent--who is typically an excellent pilot in a specialized plane. There are a couple of players, for example, who I don't think have ever been teammates.

 

I almost always fly specialized planes, though, hence my question about what might account for why my experience isn't matching what others' describe. I wondered if the "same team" issue may be more frequent for players who fly unspecialized planes as they grind the lines.

 

 

 

I re-read my response, and let me apologize - I did not mean to sound dismissive,  I was trying to be succinct.  I do not think specialization is factored in because way too many times does one team get all the spec planes.

 

I have had runs during line grinds and even tier grinds where the same humans get put on the same team.  I have a tier grind I'm doing - Attacker, J7W2, Yak-19 and F-94D.  All T9 planes that are either line grinds or spec grinds.  When I cycle through these planes on a particular play session, I will often times be playing opposite a human bomber pilot in a Tu-12 or a Ju-287.  He and I, for whatever reason, will always be on opposite teams, and the likelihood of that outcome, in a random MM scenario, is very, very low.  And this happens repeatedly. 

 

Yes, the other non-performers might switch teams, but he and I are opposite every battle, until I wait for 3 minutes before clicking in again.

 

I am beginning to think that the only way to break this is to just not click battle until over two minutes has passed, and people are already matched up, so I can get a different crappy matchup.


I might not be King of the Hill, but I am the Prince of Potatoes.

tdave1953 #54 Posted 11 August 2022 - 05:06 PM

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Corvus: I never read your response as dismissive at all, but as simply offering your helpful thoughts on the question I raised.

I understood what you were saying far better than I understand the matchmaking! lol



CorvusCorvax #55 Posted 11 August 2022 - 05:18 PM

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I think I just thought of a non-programming answer to this question.

Computer and connection speed.  The MM is not sophisticated. It will drop players into teams by twos - one red, one blue.  Next two players,  one red, one blue.  I suspect in order of connection.

Now me, I have a computer I like to call Mr. Potato Head.   Why?  It is a 12-year-old i5 box that was screaming fast when I built it back in the olden days.  Now it is slow AF.  If Mr. Red Dude has a faster box, he might get dumped in first when he immediately clicks on "Battle".  I get in second because my old PC is slower to do all the tasks.  This happens battle after battle after battle, since the planes I'm trying to fly are all selected as favorites for that day, there's no lag in plane selection.

I am going to test this out by timing the wait between load out and clicking "Battle", then varying the amount of time spent in-hangar.
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tdave1953 #56 Posted 11 August 2022 - 06:19 PM

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That's an interesting thought. I'd be curious about what you discover.

I mentioned I don't really have the "team repeat" problem. I have a new and fast system and excellent internet connection.



RenamedUser__1052125994 #57 Posted 11 August 2022 - 07:27 PM

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I had 32 striaght wins.What kind of story is MM telling me with that?

The story MM is telling me is that it loves me more than the rest of YOU.

 

Not bragging but 32 victories in a row. Come on MM what are you trying to say? LOL

 

 

 

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CorvusCorvax #58 Posted 17 September 2022 - 02:40 PM

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Loaded in last night in the Me-329.  On my team was another Me-329 and a MRF of some kind - didn't pay much attention.


The other team had a B-29C and a Me-262 HGII.

Asymmetric map with two garrisons, central Airbase, and the offset Mining Plant to the north. West spawn for the blue team.

So, from appearances, this is a loss.  Not even two Me-329s have the capping power of a B-29C, because he can one-pass a Plant pretty much every time it flips, and thus deny those extra cap points to the GAA for the whole battle.  The Me-262 HGII can cycle between the garrisons and the Airbase, and cap, cap, cap.

But, because I didn't drop at the beginning of the battle, I discovered that the B-29C driver was an utter potato, and the HGII pilot just couldn't carry hard enough to make up for it.  In almost every outing lately, I have had a battle that looks like this.  When I see the results of the MM, and think, "oh, well.  Next battle will be better" then win because all I do is concentrate on doing the best job my plane can do, regardless of the circumstances.

 

What also happens is that the MM deals a hand like this, and one of my other team mates drops, and we go on to lose a very close battle, which *might* have been won, if the human would have stayed and actually been more competent than a few of the blue bots.  You never know if that other team is just chock full of potatoes, or having a bad day - heck, I've been on teams that have won when KAIM INVICTUS has been on the red team.  He just had more potatoes than he could carry - it happens, folks.
 


I might not be King of the Hill, but I am the Prince of Potatoes.

Captain_Underpants53 #59 Posted 17 September 2022 - 04:32 PM

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I had an extremely odd battle yesterday with 7 players on a side.  I happened to win but it was only because I was the only player who belonged at that tier.  How 13 players in one battle could be so inept is completely beyond me.  The bots had a field day though.
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Corsair4790805 #60 Posted 18 September 2022 - 12:46 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 17 September 2022 - 06:40 AM, said:

Loaded in last night in the Me-329.  On my team was another Me-329 and a MRF of some kind - didn't pay much attention.


The other team had a B-29C and a Me-262 HGII.

Asymmetric map with two garrisons, central Airbase, and the offset Mining Plant to the north. West spawn for the blue team.

So, from appearances, this is a loss.  Not even two Me-329s have the capping power of a B-29C, because he can one-pass a Plant pretty much every time it flips, and thus deny those extra cap points to the GAA for the whole battle.  The Me-262 HGII can cycle between the garrisons and the Airbase, and cap, cap, cap.

But, because I didn't drop at the beginning of the battle, I discovered that the B-29C driver was an utter potato, and the HGII pilot just couldn't carry hard enough to make up for it.  In almost every outing lately, I have had a battle that looks like this.  When I see the results of the MM, and think, "oh, well.  Next battle will be better" then win because all I do is concentrate on doing the best job my plane can do, regardless of the circumstances.

 

What also happens is that the MM deals a hand like this, and one of my other team mates drops, and we go on to lose a very close battle, which *might* have been won, if the human would have stayed and actually been more competent than a few of the blue bots.  You never know if that other team is just chock full of potatoes, or having a bad day - heck, I've been on teams that have won when KAIM INVICTUS has been on the red team.  He just had more potatoes than he could carry - it happens, folks.
 

 

Yep, one of the few games that I've been on the winning side by points when time is called was against KAIM.   I was shocked and surprised to be on the winning side against KAIM.   The handful of times I've been opposite him I usually don't even see him before the battle is wrapped up (usually in minutes).

 






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