72 replies to this topic

[SkyWolf__WM]

crzyhawk, on 01 November 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

Saw alot of people split-tiering today.  My respect levels drops when I see people do it regularly.

 

 

Oh Boo hoo. I still don't see how making sure one of your flight is not up- tiered by making sure the other flight member is ALWAYS up-tiered is an exploit. Do these flights kick your keester all the time or something?   

 

EDIT: I see you fly premium planes a lot. That's unfair and an exploit and stuff.   

Edited by SkyWolf__WM, 01 November 2020 - 07:38 PM.

[crzyhawk]

You have nothing to worry about.  I won't lose any respect for you when I catch you split tiering.

[WhoaBlackBetty]

crzyhawk, on 01 November 2020 - 01:37 PM, said:

You have nothing to worry about.  I won't lose any respect for you when I catch you split tiering.

 

[GeorgePatton]

losttwo, on 01 November 2020 - 02:10 PM, said:

First one must understand that an exploit can be either positive or negative.

 

Exploitation is, last I checked, the act of making use of a situation to gain an unfair advantage for oneself.

 

Second, one must understand that every individual in this game has the ability to flight up.

 

This is actually not a part of the real argument - this is a red herring. It's cleverly disguised though, so I give you credit for that.

 

It is an individuals choice on how they play this game with in the confines of the rules.

 

​There was a certain community event that I hosted years ago where the intentions of my ruleset were very clear. The event ended up turning into people trying to play the rulebook rather than play the game. Accusations of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of things outside the game were thrown about by people looking to find loopholes in the rules to avoid getting their butts handed to them in the game. My point is that there are often ways that you can 'play the rules' to gain an unfair edge. Look at Mercedes' interesting steering mechanism in the Constructor's Cup and how that has forced the governing body to re-write the rules for next year.

 

Fair and unfair is kind of beating a dead horse.

 

World of Warplanes is kind of beating a dead horse at this point. Hopefully that will change soon. If it does, then fair and unfair is no longer beating a dead horse.

 

You can either look at the game as being unfair as a whole for the SOLO pilot or fair if the pilot takes advantage of all opportunities or exploits.

 

So you're saying that the game will only be fair if you learn all of the ways to exploit the game mechanics. Now it's not about playing the game, it's about beating the game so that you can then use that knowledge to clobber other people. Anyone who has this attitude about World of Warplanes is not here for the right reasons.

 

The fact is that some planes are meta others are lacking.

The player has the option to fly as he chooses.

 

The fact is that the developers have a responsibility to their community to continuously evaluate the performance of aircraft and maintain a BoP just like we see in racing where fuel levels, car weights, etc are set to maintain a fair field.

 

The choices are : Solo, flight , tier, plane

 

There are some other choices (read exploits) that are available that I'm not going to go into here because not many people are aware of them and don't need to be made aware.

 

Would the game be " MORE FAIR " if Wargaming changed to single tier with a dual mode of Solo mode / flight mode. ?

 

In the context of the game as it is today, yes - there should only be 1 tier per battle. Flights should be forced to fly the same tier regardless of whether the battle is a 1 or 2 tier spread.

 

What if Wargaming re-balanced the teams to be Nationally oriented versus.

 

This wouldn't be in line at all with the 'World of' philosophy.

 

Sorry for replying in a quote, I'm kinda busy right now and didn't have time to separate everything out.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

[CorvusCorvax]

GeorgePatton, on 01 November 2020 - 06:22 PM, said:

 

Corvus, your lack of logic is amusing. Just because I personally don't usually have any issues with split-tiered flights doesn't mean that I should believe they're fair. My thoughts on what is fair or unfair are based mainly on how I perceive the new player experience to be. I've talked with a lot of new players, joined flights with them, and tried my best to keep them in the game. The biggest discouraging factor I encountered while doing this was seal clubbers in specialized, higher tier planes blocking them from really getting out of tier 4. That is obviously exacerbated by split tiering that happens there as well.

 

I've laid out evidence to support my argument, including knowledge of the game's design process. All you've put up are red herrings and 'it's in the game duh huhuhu'. If you're not going to show some actual reasoning to counter my supported arguments, just admit that you don't care if it's fair or not and move on.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

You haven't proven any logic flaws.  Just claiming it is a flaw doesn't make it one - you have to PROVE it.  Just like calling it an exploit doesn't make it one - you have to PROVE it.  All you've shown with the evidence is that the matchmaker is crappy.

Really?  Great news, everyone - Glenn has shown us a brand new problem with WG programming!  [applause]

 

If seal clubbing is your issue, that has zero to do with split-tiering.  That is a whole other problem, and combining the two shows a certain, how shall we say, lack of logic on your part.  I don't recall flights of three and T6 planes going easy on me when I was flying my Bf-110B back in the old days.  I recall a flight pair doing some huge clubbing in the low tiers when I was first flying.  Paired FW-57s just crushing it battle after battle.  Nobody was crying about it then.

Frankly, it doesn't really matter what other blather you lay down - you've already admitted that split-tiering is acceptable.  That you feel you must delineate the proper circumstances outside of the framework of the game itself means your "exploit" argument is a loser.

 

 

[GeorgePatton]

CorvusCorvax, on 01 November 2020 - 04:34 PM, said:

You haven't proven any logic flaws.  Just claiming it is a flaw doesn't make it one - you have to PROVE it.  Just like calling it an exploit doesn't make it one - you have to PROVE it.  All you've shown with the evidence is that the matchmaker is crappy.

 

"It's in the game so it's fair," does not hold up in a logical argument. Let's break that down.

 

• "It's in the game..." That's a statement - it could be true, it could be false. In this case, we all agree that it is a true statement.
• "...so it's fair." This is a conclusion that is not sufficiently supported. You show nothing to support the idea that there is a legitimate connection between your statement and your conclusion.

 

Block Quote

 If seal clubbing is your issue, that has zero to do with split-tiering.  That is a whole other problem, and combining the two shows a certain, how shall we say, lack of logic on your part.  I don't recall flights of three and T6 planes going easy on me when I was flying my Bf-110B back in the old days.  I recall a flight pair doing some huge clubbing in the low tiers when I was first flying.  Paired FW-57s just crushing it battle after battle.  Nobody was crying about it then.

 

The whole idea of split tiering is to bring the higher tier aircraft into the lowest tiered battle possible to gain an advantage. When you're doing that at period I and the splits between period I & II or II & III you're likely attempting to seal-club. Especially when both pilots are flying specialized 'meta' planes for their respective tiers. The two are very much connected, although you can also separate them. A discussion on the 'fairness' of split-tiering must include a conversation regarding seal-clubbing as an aspect of split-tiering.

 

I don't know if you were around long enough to have experienced it or not - when the game was released, there was a gang of players who considered themselves to be 'the best' who flew nothing but Bf.110 C-6 and trolled the entire game during that 'race to the top' event. I believe they may have also been involved in the FW.57 trolling you mentioned. There was a lot of heated debate about whether that was OK or not, ultimately the developers did not punish them as they had purchased the C-6. That was a mistake on Wargaming's part to release the C-6 prior to establishing a healthy user base above tier 4.

 

Block Quote

 I don't recall flights of three and T6 planes going easy on me when I was flying my Bf-110B back in the old days.

 

People whined and complained about this all day long and Wargaming responded by removing three-player flights. Your argument is invalid as Wargaming themselves declared this behavior 'unfair'.

 

Block Quote

 Frankly, it doesn't really matter what other blather you lay down - you've already admitted that split-tiering is acceptable.

 

Show me where I said split-tiering is acceptable and we'll have a good laugh.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

[CorvusCorvax]

GeorgePatton, on 01 November 2020 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

 

So, looking at the design of MM and changes that have been made to 'limit the effectiveness' of flights, it can be logically concluded that split-tiering, while it is certainly possible in the game, is an exploit of the system. I do make an exception for helping people grind a plane that isn't effective, but here's my take on that - the junk plane has to be the low tier. Y'all can figure out why I say that. 

 

---

 

 

Here you go.  You say it's acceptable.  I do not recognize your authority to draw the line.

[CorvusCorvax]

GeorgePatton, on 01 November 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

 

"It's in the game so it's fair," does not hold up in a logical argument. Let's break that down.

 

• "It's in the game..." That's a statement - it could be true, it could be false. In this case, we all agree that it is a true statement.
• "...so it's fair." This is a conclusion that is not sufficiently supported. You show nothing to support the idea that there is a legitimate connection between your statement and your conclusion.

 

 

The whole idea of split tiering is to bring the higher tier aircraft into the lowest tiered battle possible to gain an advantage. When you're doing that at period I and the splits between period I & II or II & III you're likely attempting to seal-club. Especially when both pilots are flying specialized 'meta' planes for their respective tiers. The two are very much connected, although you can also separate them. A discussion on the 'fairness' of split-tiering must include a conversation regarding seal-clubbing as an aspect of split-tiering.

 

I don't know if you were around long enough to have experienced it or not - when the game was released, there was a gang of players who considered themselves to be 'the best' who flew nothing but Bf.110 C-6 and trolled the entire game during that 'race to the top' event. I believe they may have also been involved in the FW.57 trolling you mentioned. There was a lot of heated debate about whether that was OK or not, ultimately the developers did not punish them as they had purchased the C-6. That was a mistake on Wargaming's part to release the C-6 prior to establishing a healthy user base above tier 4.

 

 

People whined and complained about this all day long and Wargaming responded by removing three-player flights. Your argument is invalid as Wargaming themselves declared this behavior 'unfair'.

 

 

Show me where I said split-tiering is acceptable and we'll have a good laugh.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

I didn't make the argument that "if it was in the game, it's fair".  My contention was smaller than that.  That's what's called a strawman argument - a logical fallacy.  Flights create an advantage.  The specialization system creates an advantage.  The pilot skill points system creates an advantage.  The special pilots create an advantage.  These are all unfair, by your broad use of terms.

Heck, I can be top tier all day long if I want - I can fly Tier X aircraft to the exclusion of all others.  Unfair?

If you can prove, with actual data and developer notes, that the flighting mechanic is being used in contravention of its intention, I'll admit that you're right.

Otherwise, you are drawing a personal line, which I do not recognize as having any authority, no matter how many time you reiterate it, or under what circumstances or permutations.  If WG decides to scrap the mechanic as it exists, then I am also happy to admit I'm wrong.

Edited by CorvusCorvax, 02 November 2020 - 12:18 AM.

[SenatorTH]

Block Quote

 The whole idea of split tiering is to bring the higher tier aircraft into the lowest tiered battle possible to gain an advantage

 

In fact, the whole idea of split-tiering is to avoid a possible disadvantage given by broken-logic-MM. Statistically, split-tiered flight ALWAYS plays inside its average tier. While same-tier flight gets that only 1/3rd of all possible cases. Btw, getting lower-tier opponents is also a disadvantage if you didn't know.

[CorvusCorvax]

SenatorTH, on 02 November 2020 - 12:17 AM, said:

 

In fact, the whole idea of split-tiering is to avoid a possible disadvantage given by broken-logic-MM. Statistically, split-tiered flight ALWAYS plays inside its average tier. While same-tier flight gets that only 1/3rd of all possible cases. Btw, getting lower-tier opponents is also a disadvantage if you didn't know.

This is what bugs me about the who argument.  Yes, a flight of a Vampire and a Ju-287 is a serious pain in the neck.  Two VERY STRONG planes at tier, but I will say this - the Me-262 HGII is more than enough to rock both of those planes.  A flight of an I-250 and an HGII can be pretty tough.  There are a lot of permutations, but it comes down to this - the rudimentary MM is pretty cruddy.  It doesn't take a lot of stuff into consideration during the matchmaking, and essentially throws everything into the pot and sometimes makes great soup, but often just spews out swill.  So, players *will* do what they can to mitigate cruddy matchmaking.  I got downtiered 10 of 15 battles today.  One of my top tier battles was at T10, so I shouldn't count that.  But dang, after a day of getting outrun and outgunned, maybe it might be nice to flight with some top-tier guy so at least I have a shot at getting a few pieces of salvage...

 

[HoujuuNue]

Mudguts_, on 01 November 2020 - 10:02 AM, said:

 

We never had the population to support this, and never will.

 

You don't need a population. Just 3 friends

[SenatorTH]

There is a very simple way to remove sealclubbing almost completely.

Who are the sealclubbers? The majority of them are simple WR%-ores, right?

Then just redo (not even remove, just modify) existing Hof and, possibly, clan pages. Currently HoF has a condition of 1000 battles to be included in "Overall" and no limitations in other tabs.

Let's add a condition: period I (t1-t4) is called "educational". Nothing changes at all in playstyle. Just the battles done in period I planes doesn't add to HoF statistics, winrate/killrate/whatever counting starts at t5+. Wouldn't that work? No changes in-game, I repeat.

[Captain_Underpants53]

But then those 'seals' would never add to their stats either.  It would be another incentive to get to Tier V as quickly as possible which is a big mistake for the majority.

[SenatorTH]

Captain_Underpants53, on 01 November 2020 - 04:57 PM, said:

But then those 'seals' would never add to their stats either.  It would be another incentive to get to Tier V as quickly as possible which is a big mistake for the majority.

Then there's a question - what are they playing for? For the stats? Anyway 1000 battles is an entry condition ))

[SpiritFoxMY]

I voted unfair and I still think its unfair under most circumstances but since everyone is autistically screeching about how it is almost certainly fair and balanced I've convinced a few people to... "test split tiering" for its "fairness". I myself will be "testing" it to see why people would consider it "fair". I have already gotten some preliminary thoughts (and they mostly revolve around people being terrible pilots to begin with) 

[Captain_Underpants53]

SenatorTH, on 01 November 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:

Then there's a question - what are they playing for? For the stats? Anyway 1000 battles is an entry condition ))

Maybe I'm hard hearted but I believe in 'sink or swim'.  20 years of Military Service are probably responsible for that attitude.  You give advice, encouragement, and a swift kick in the posterior when needed.  Those who put effort into it, listen to experienced advice, and endeavor to persevere will succeed.  Works for most boots.

[SenatorTH]

SpiritFoxMY, on 01 November 2020 - 05:03 PM, said:

I voted unfair and I still think its unfair under most circumstances but since everyone is autistically screeching about how it is almost certainly fair and balanced I've convinced a few people to... "test split tiering" for its "fairness". I myself will be "testing" it to see why people would consider it "fair". I have already gotten some preliminary thoughts (and they mostly revolve around people being terrible pilots to begin with) 

I voted "fair" as I fly 98% of my battles solo, am a terrible pilot, and it's easier for me to fight against one my-tier and one upper-tier opponent that two upper-tier's ))

[Silence6966]

split tiering is lame and its allowed so people will do it. its that simple. it is lame and cheesy, and its not against the rules. when I see a split tier flight I focus on ruining their game. it makes it more fun for me

[The_real_Gouldy]

SenatorTH, on 01 November 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

I voted "fair" as I fly 98% of my battles solo, am a terrible pilot, and it's easier for me to fight against one my-tier and one upper-tier opponent that two upper-tier's ))

 

By your own admission you say you're a terrible pilot so you need someone else to carry you for wins & by split tiering ensuring your carry guy is top tier makes that easier.

Now take two capable players who can already carry games when top tier split tier in meta planes at their respective tiers. How much easier will wins come for them when one of them is guaranteed to be top tier? (Not talking about you corvus)

 

By split tiering you are gaming the MM to receive a known outcome to gain an advantage which is fundamentally an exploit & therefore unfair play.

[Mudguts_]

The_real_Gouldy, on 01 November 2020 - 09:48 PM, said:

 

By your own admission you say you're a terrible pilot so you need someone else to carry you for wins & by split tiering ensuring your carry guy is top tier makes that easier.

Now take two capable players who can already carry games when top tier split tier in meta planes at their respective tiers. How much easier will wins come for them when one of them is guaranteed to be top tier? (Not talking about you corvus)

 

By split tiering you are gaming the MM to receive a known outcome to gain an advantage which is fundamentally an exploit & therefore unfair play.

It's hard to follow what he said, not sure why he mentioned bad pilot, but I think he's saying he'd rather face a split tier so he knows at least one of them will be his tier, versus say a flight of two planes a tier above....I think that's what he's saying...

 

Cap should add a "Lame and worthy of ridicule" category to the poll...I'd vote for that.

Edited by Mudguts_, 02 November 2020 - 03:02 AM.