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What is 'unfair' in WoWP?

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SkyWolf__WM #21 Posted 26 October 2020 - 06:18 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 26 October 2020 - 12:53 AM, said:

1. Split-tiering is an absolute advantage if done properly. People have explained this often enough and if you can't already understand it, its because you don't want to. One last time - some planes are overpowered at their tiers and are thus competitive at the tier above them. Some planes are overpowered for their tiers and completely stomp people of that tier or lower. You seem to agree on this statement. So when you use split-tiering to rig the matchmaker to ensure you are never matched against the tier above by picking a plane that is competitive as your "fixer" then the overpowered plane can run riot while the downtiered plane can hold its own. More importantly, it requires that people knowingly choose to do this and coordinate this kind of tactic. This is "rigging the system" and is different from simply choosing to fly an overpowered plane. Why not fly two tier 6 overpowered planes and let the matchmaker decide? Why choose instead to rig it to ensure you get the best possible matchmaking for the plane on top? As I have explained in detail in the past, you are basically stacking the deck to ensure you never get an unfavorable match. Only neutral and favorable matches. The only time its "unfavorable" is when the players are so bad that even playing with a loaded dice, they are unable to perform. I can name two such players and I had a great deal of entertainment bombkilling one of them recently.

 

Most Split tier flights that I see or fly in aren't "strategically" using aircraft that are "the best" at tier. It's simply a way to make sure the one pilot isn't out tiered by making sure that the other pilot is out tiered. I fly whatever I need to fly. I flew 2 flights today split tiered with me in a tier 5 German Bomber. One with a tier 4 P-36 tech tree plane and one with a tier 6 KI whateverthehellitis heavy.  Is the tier 5 German bomber the "best"? No. It's a POS.

 

2. The issue is that there is no response to high tier bombers other than "fly heavies". This is the problem with most bombers but really becomes a problem at tier 9 and 10. You literally cannot play anything else. Against a decently capable bomber player, you either play heavy or lose. This is a little less so against the EF-131/Ju-287 because there are one or two map layouts that are pure garrison/airfields but in a Specialized Su-10, it takes a superior skill and a lot of luck to beat one of those things flown well. You either outnumber him and outskill him or he has to have the deck so badly loaded against him that he can't do anything in order to beat him. That is the issue with the high tier bombers - they make entire classes (Light Fighters, Multiroles and Ground Attackers) obsolete just by existing. As bad as they are, the Ki-102, Me-410, Tu-1 and P-38Fs can be beaten either at their own games or by simply avoiding them and playing around them. You simply cannot do that to bombers in 9 out of 10 maps at period III.

 

Can I have some of whatever it is that you are injecting (unless it's Bleach)? I've been stuck in bombers due to joystick issues and there are PLENTY of bot heavies around to allow YOU to fly whateverthehellyouwant. You say stuff with SUCH conviction however!  

:teethhappy:

 


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trikke #22 Posted 26 October 2020 - 09:19 PM

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what could WG do about split-tiering that wouldn't cause a riot...  it would have to be a stealth nerf       and it's certainly a possibility 

 

what is the average point value of voice communication in battle, without having to type anything other than gg?     1000 PP each?   2000 each?   

 

so, 10% wider cone of fire for the uptiered plane?       higher pings?        10% wider bomb drop circles?     20%?         all of these?

 

what would equate to about 1500-2000 PP for the average pilot?       no penalty at all for new-ish players?       somewhat higher than average penalties for superpilots?

 

the ultimate question is...   what would it take to retain new pilots?       

 

there's nothing even close to the importance of that


Edited by trikke, 26 October 2020 - 09:20 PM.

Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore       

The_real_Gouldy #23 Posted 26 October 2020 - 11:49 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 26 October 2020 - 04:19 PM, said:

what could WG do about split-tiering that wouldn't cause a riot...  it would have to be a stealth nerf       and it's certainly a possibility 

 

what is the average point value of voice communication in battle, without having to type anything other than gg?     1000 PP each?   2000 each?   

 

so, 10% wider cone of fire for the uptiered plane?       higher pings?        10% wider bomb drop circles?     20%?         all of these?

 

what would equate to about 1500-2000 PP for the average pilot?       no penalty at all for new-ish players?       somewhat higher than average penalties for superpilots?

 

the ultimate question is...   what would it take to retain new pilots?       

 

there's nothing even close to the importance of that

 

Simply don't allow a flight to enter a battle until both are in same tier planes( kinda like the change wot implemented).

 

While they are at it only put a flight into a game with an opposing flight on the other team, you know simple changes to help balance games.

 

Funny how much more fun a video game is when it's balanced & yes retain more players.



SkyWolf__WM #24 Posted 26 October 2020 - 11:54 PM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 26 October 2020 - 06:49 PM, said:

 

Simply don't allow a flight to enter a battle until both are in same tier planes( kinda like the change wot implemented).

 

While they are at it only put a flight into a game with an opposing flight on the other team, you know simple changes to help balance games.

 

Funny how much more fun a video game is when it's balanced & yes retain more players.

 

Funny how I don't want to wait 30 minutes for a flight NPC.  :teethhappy:


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The_real_Gouldy #25 Posted 27 October 2020 - 12:12 AM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 26 October 2020 - 06:54 PM, said:

 

Funny how I don't want to wait 30 minutes for a flight NPC.  :teethhappy:

 

So either no flights at all or put your flight into a all bot game when the one minute timer runs out. That way you won't need to split tier & you can pad your stats all you want.



SkyWolf__WM #26 Posted 27 October 2020 - 12:20 AM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 26 October 2020 - 07:12 PM, said:

 

So either no flights at all or put your flight into a all bot game when the one minute timer runs out. That way you won't need to split tier & you can pad your stats all you want.

 

Says the NPC "expert" of WoWP.  :teethhappy:


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trikke #27 Posted 27 October 2020 - 02:49 AM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 26 October 2020 - 07:49 PM, said:

Simply don't allow a flight to enter a battle until both are in same tier planes( kinda like the change wot implemented).

 

absolutely the easiest fix         did tank guys throw a fit?


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Captain_Underpants53 #28 Posted 27 October 2020 - 03:05 AM

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No 'fix' needed.
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The_real_Gouldy #29 Posted 27 October 2020 - 04:05 AM

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View Posttrikke, on 26 October 2020 - 09:49 PM, said:

 

absolutely the easiest fix         did tank guys throw a fit?

 

Mixed tier platoons were not able to game the matchmaker like in planes as the lower tier tanks were treated the same as high tier in the platoon.

Doing so just handicapped the team & pizz'd off the other 12 or 13 players on the team.

 

So it was a welcomed change when they prevented split tier platoons.



WhoaBlackBetty #30 Posted 27 October 2020 - 07:28 AM

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The freakin' fix is for WG to get HUMANS IN THE GAME.

De-arse your bunks! Man the planes! The Fokkers are in sight! BAM ba LAMMM!

 

Also: J311yfish: " 'Seal clubbing' and 'head hunting' are an inseparable part of the competitive nature of the game, and both provide a valuable service."

                                                                                                                     

       


losttwo #31 Posted 27 October 2020 - 04:07 PM

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What is unfair ?

 

Wargaming will not give any of it's player base a free premium for their IRL birthday.

 

Come on. Seriously.

 

What would it hurt to give a pixelized toon plane to players to celebrate another year of living.

 

Even more so if they have spent over $100 in this game.


Edited by losttwo, 27 October 2020 - 04:08 PM.


BigBadWolf #32 Posted 27 October 2020 - 04:55 PM

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WG should remove all the planes and leave just one tier VI SpitFire airplane in the game, so everyone would fly same plane and have a fair and equal playing field. 
​"Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't"

losttwo #33 Posted 27 October 2020 - 05:49 PM

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View PostBigBadWolf, on 27 October 2020 - 11:55 AM, said:

WG should remove all the planes and leave just one tier VI SpitFire airplane in the game, so everyone would fly same plane and have a fair and equal playing field. 

 

But then SOMEONE would complain about the unfair advantages some players have.

 Distance from sever

 Hops between them and server.

Server giving advantages to certain players,

Better computer systems.

Should I go on....:ohmy::teethhappy:



vcharng #34 Posted 28 October 2020 - 12:37 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 26 October 2020 - 04:25 AM, said:

 As long as they are within the rules of the game and available to all, there is no unfairness here. 

Well things don't work that way.

At the very least, there are meta planes, and there are non-meta planes.

Plane/map balancing are never perfect after all.



CorvusCorvax #35 Posted 28 October 2020 - 01:42 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 28 October 2020 - 12:37 AM, said:

Well things don't work that way.

At the very least, there are meta planes, and there are non-meta planes.

Plane/map balancing are never perfect after all.

You should really look up the word.  You obviously have no idea what the word "fair" means.



Deltavee #36 Posted 28 October 2020 - 02:53 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 25 October 2020 - 11:25 PM, said:

I see folks complaining about many things.  The topic of unfairness comes up very often. 

 

'No fair, your bots were better than mine!'  'No fair, you rammed me!'  'No fair, you were in a flight!'  'No fair, you had a higher tier plane than me!'  'No fair, you had more Spec planes on your side!'  'No fair, you were using Gold Consumables!'  'No fair, you were camping the spawn point!'  'No fair, you were flying a (fill in the plane class you hate to fly)!  'No fair, the MM loves you best!'  'No fair, you shot a noob!'

 

I admit, some of these things are irritating but unfair?  I think not.  As long as they are within the rules of the game and available to all, there is no unfairness here.  I probably forgot some of the complaints I've seen but feel free to add to the list.

 

viz.

"Fair" is subjective.

Life is objective.

Life won't change to suit your subjective-coloured glasses.

If you don't want to put in the work, don't complain because things aren't going your way.

It's on you to learn the lessons needed to progress.

Energy spent whining is a waste of a resource you could be using to improve.

 


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CorvusCorvax #37 Posted 28 October 2020 - 04:05 AM

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View PostDeltavee, on 28 October 2020 - 02:53 AM, said:

 

viz.

"Fair" is subjective.

Life is objective.

Life won't change to suit your subjective-coloured glasses.

If you don't want to put in the work, don't complain because things aren't going your way.

It's on you to learn the lessons needed to progress.

Energy spent whining is a waste of a resource you could be using to improve.

 

I would argue that a server-side computer game is about as "fair" as life gets.  Each person that plays has exactly the same access to assets in-game, and for each person, those assets act exactly the same.  

 

That some people choose not to use those assets does not make the game unfair.



vcharng #38 Posted 28 October 2020 - 05:34 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 28 October 2020 - 01:42 AM, said:

You should really look up the word.  You obviously have no idea what the word "fair" means.

https://www.merriam-...ctionary/unfair

 

Definition of unfair

 

1marked by injustice, partiality, or deception UNJUST
2not equitable in business dealings
 
 
and then 

Definition of equitable

 

1having or exhibiting equity
 

Definition of equity

 

1ajustice according to natural law or rightspecifically freedom from bias or favoritism

https://www.merriam-...ry/advantageous

Definition of advantageous

 

giving an advantage FAVORABLE
 

At first I thought it could be my mother language standing in the way, as "fair" and "equality" (including equity) is basically the same word in my first language, but then I saw this.

So basically, "unfair" means the two sides are not free from bias or favoritism, while advantageous means one side is being favored.

And that's just saying the same sentence in a different way. as proven by this:

According to trichotomy of math, when we compare the favoritism of two objects, referred to as F(a) and F(b), one and only one of the following must be true:

F(a)<F(b)

F(a)=F(b)

F(a)>F(b)

and since "unfair" means they are not free from favoritism, F(a)=F(b) is eliminated, therefore, only the following possibility remains:

F(a)<F(b)

F(a)>F(b)

And that, in normal language, is called "one side is being favored".

 

I know you most likely want to go with definition 1 of unfair, but hey, if there exists a definition 2 then I can definitely go with it.

and, in the event that you insist in going for def. 1, fine, it's even easier. Having favorable win rate for flighted players is unjust.


Edited by vcharng, 28 October 2020 - 05:39 AM.


msu_mark #39 Posted 28 October 2020 - 02:20 PM

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Life is seldom fair. Sometimes you have it easy and sometimes you're screwed. Deal with it. I don't like head hunting or teaming when seal clubbing but that's how it is. If you don't like it, design your own game or start playing another.

 



Commodore_Sailracer #40 Posted 28 October 2020 - 02:54 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 26 October 2020 - 04:19 PM, said:

what could WG do about split-tiering that wouldn't cause a riot...  it would have to be a stealth nerf       and it's certainly a possibility 

 

 

They should get rid of multi-tier battles.  Only allow one tier of plane.  Then if a flight wants to split, they get put into a battle with the higher tier flight partner.  The lower tier partner can still battle, but will be at a disadvantage of their own choosing.

 

As for fairness- I would say the MM creating battles where one team has, say 2 humans in the higher tier and the other team has 2 humans in the lower tier is unfair matchmaking.  This would also be solved by going to a single tier per battle.







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