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What is 'unfair' in WoWP?

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Captain_Underpants53 #1 Posted 26 October 2020 - 04:25 AM

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I see folks complaining about many things.  The topic of unfairness comes up very often. 

 

'No fair, your bots were better than mine!'  'No fair, you rammed me!'  'No fair, you were in a flight!'  'No fair, you had a higher tier plane than me!'  'No fair, you had more Spec planes on your side!'  'No fair, you were using Gold Consumables!'  'No fair, you were camping the spawn point!'  'No fair, you were flying a (fill in the plane class you hate to fly)!  'No fair, the MM loves you best!'  'No fair, you shot a noob!'

 

I admit, some of these things are irritating but unfair?  I think not.  As long as they are within the rules of the game and available to all, there is no unfairness here.  I probably forgot some of the complaints I've seen but feel free to add to the list.


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Captain_Rownd #2 Posted 26 October 2020 - 04:28 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 25 October 2020 - 06:25 PM, said:

 As long as they are within the rules of the game and available to all, there is no unfairness here.  

 

The rules and format are unfair by design.  WG wants you motivated to grind advantages until you drop.  

 


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WhoaBlackBetty #3 Posted 26 October 2020 - 04:41 AM

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It is not easy grinding up the tiers fighting humans and bots and AAs, but none of it is UNFAIR. It is a challenging game, you are thrown situations you must be prepared to counter.  You do that by learning how to fly.  You get your [edited]kicked, you learn how to kick [edited].

 

This "fair" word I absolutely despise.  So many of you equate fair to winning, and if you do not win, you blame some kind of unfairness.  You say obstacles are unfair because they are obstacles,  You say losing to other humans, and bots for goodness sake, is unfair.  IT AIN'T UNFAIR.  It is a game requiring you to put forth the effort to learn.

 

You do not want to fly enough to git gud, you get your [edited]kicked.  You do not or cannot come up with gold, it is NOT unfair to you when those who can kick your [edited], although wallet warriors still cannot whup a skilled pilot.

 

LOSING is not UNFAIR.   It is losing. L2P. Git gud, and GROW A PAIR.

 

DERN I git tired of hearing the fair word used by sissy minded spoiled sports who do not have the maturity to BE A MAN.

 

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Also: J311yfish: " 'Seal clubbing' and 'head hunting' are an inseparable part of the competitive nature of the game, and both provide a valuable service."

                                                                                                                     

       


Captain_Underpants53 #4 Posted 26 October 2020 - 04:46 AM

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View PostWhoaBlackBetty, on 25 October 2020 - 11:41 PM, said:

It is not easy grinding up the tiers fighting humans and bots and AAs, but none of it is UNFAIR. It is a challenging game, you are thrown situations you must be prepared to counter.  You do that by learning how to fly.  You get your [edited]kicked, you learn how to kick [edited].

 

This "fair" word I absolutely despise.  So many of you equate fair to winning, and if you do not win, you blame some kind of unfairness.  You say obstacles are unfair because they are obstacles,  You say losing to other humans, and bots for goodness sake, is unfair.  IT AIN'T UNFAIR.  It is a game requiring you to put forth the effort to learn.

 

You do not want to fly enough to git gud, you get your [edited]kicked.  You do not or cannot come up with gold, it is NOT unfair to you when those who can kick your [edited], although wallet warriors still cannot whup a skilled pilot.

 

LOSING is not UNFAIR.   It is losing. L2P. Git gud, and GROW A PAIR.

 

DERN I git tired of hearing the fair word used by sissy minded spoiled sports who do not have the maturity to BE A MAN.

 

WBB (Whoppin'BigBalls) and his pair


LOL, while I do agree, I was hoping for a gentler kinder machine gun hand.

 

:hiding:


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WhoaBlackBetty #5 Posted 26 October 2020 - 04:50 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 25 October 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:


LOL, while I do agree, I was hoping for a gentler kinder machine gun hand.

 

:hiding:

 

Heh. It is what it is. Imagine what Whiskey woulda said.


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Also: J311yfish: " 'Seal clubbing' and 'head hunting' are an inseparable part of the competitive nature of the game, and both provide a valuable service."

                                                                                                                     

       


SpiritFoxMY #6 Posted 26 October 2020 - 04:51 AM

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I think two things cross the line for me:

 

1. Deliberate split-tiering for a matchmaking advantage. I would define that as deliberately picking a dominant top tier (a plane that is overwhelmingly superior when top tier) and a competitive bottom tier (picking a plane that remains competitive when lower tier). Examples are: Bristol 146- Spitfire I, P-38F-B-17G, Emil-Ki-102, Ki-102-Tu-1, Tu-1-RB-17 etc. Some split tiers aren't inherently advantageous (like a F4F-Bf109F or tier 9-10 for example which is just handicapping yourself tbh) but some comps are just clearly intended to crutch bad players' win rates by stacking the deck and its those comps that really get my goat and it is a matter of great delight to crapon players who do this regularly.

 

2. Deliberate sealclubbing. That is loading up an overpowered plane with the best equipment possible with pilots with 7+ skill points and just flying tiers 1 - 3. Personally it really doesn't affect me (most people like this are complete trash players anyhow) but it strikes me as fundamentally disgusting: like a way to both cheat the system and self-fellate at the expense of new players.

 

Everything else... Eh, whatever. Imbalances in classes, maps and bots are frustrating but they exist in every game and aren't fundamentally "unfair" so much as they are "issues" to be fixed. Like the current bomber imbalance at tiers 9 and 10. It's "unfair" insomuch as it is extremely easy and likely for a bomber player to rack up wins against opponents that have little chance of fighting back but it isn't "unfair behaviour" since its just, really, part of the game and the only way to avoid it is to just not play entire airplane types.

 

I guess then what I would define as "unfair" is simply deliberate exploiting of broken mechanics for selfish gain when you have a clear and simple alternative that would be "fairer". 


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Captain_Rownd #7 Posted 26 October 2020 - 05:21 AM

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View PostWhoaBlackBetty, on 25 October 2020 - 06:41 PM, said:

 

 

DERN I git tired of hearing the fair word used by sissy minded spoiled sports who do not have the maturity to BE A MAN.

 

WBB (Whoppin'BigBalls) and his pair

 

Dude, it's a game.  Save the chest-thumping "grow a pair" nonsense for meatspace where real blood and sweat is involved.  Then you'll get ample opportunity to stroke your "pair".  

 


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WhoaBlackBetty #8 Posted 26 October 2020 - 05:32 AM

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View PostCaptain_Rownd, on 25 October 2020 - 11:21 PM, said:

 

Dude, it's a game.  Save the chest-thumping "grow a pair" nonsense for meatspace where real blood and sweat is involved.  Then you'll get ample opportunity to stroke your "pair".  

 

LOL Kiss off.  I feel like I feel dude.


De-arse your bunks! Man the planes! The Fokkers are in sight! BAM ba LAMMM!

 

Also: J311yfish: " 'Seal clubbing' and 'head hunting' are an inseparable part of the competitive nature of the game, and both provide a valuable service."

                                                                                                                     

       


Captain_Underpants53 #9 Posted 26 October 2020 - 05:37 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 25 October 2020 - 11:51 PM, said:

I think two things cross the line for me:

 

1. Deliberate split-tiering for a matchmaking advantage. I would define that as deliberately picking a dominant top tier (a plane that is overwhelmingly superior when top tier) and a competitive bottom tier (picking a plane that remains competitive when lower tier). Examples are: Bristol 146- Spitfire I, P-38F-B-17G, Emil-Ki-102, Ki-102-Tu-1, Tu-1-RB-17 etc. Some split tiers aren't inherently advantageous (like a F4F-Bf109F or tier 9-10 for example which is just handicapping yourself tbh) but some comps are just clearly intended to crutch bad players' win rates by stacking the deck and its those comps that really get my goat and it is a matter of great delight to crapon players who do this regularly.

 

2. Deliberate sealclubbing. That is loading up an overpowered plane with the best equipment possible with pilots with 7+ skill points and just flying tiers 1 - 3. Personally it really doesn't affect me (most people like this are complete trash players anyhow) but it strikes me as fundamentally disgusting: like a way to both cheat the system and self-fellate at the expense of new players.

 

Everything else... Eh, whatever. Imbalances in classes, maps and bots are frustrating but they exist in every game and aren't fundamentally "unfair" so much as they are "issues" to be fixed. Like the current bomber imbalance at tiers 9 and 10. It's "unfair" insomuch as it is extremely easy and likely for a bomber player to rack up wins against opponents that have little chance of fighting back but it isn't "unfair behaviour" since its just, really, part of the game and the only way to avoid it is to just not play entire airplane types.

 

I guess then what I would define as "unfair" is simply deliberate exploiting of broken mechanics for selfish gain when you have a clear and simple alternative that would be "fairer". 

I disagree on the split-tier thing.  As long as it is available for anyone to use it seems fair to me.  In addition I believe is is as much a disadvantage at times as it is an advantage.

 

The noob clubbing does seem unfair, at least if it is a consistent habit.  Not cricket.

 

I disagree on the higher tier bombers of course.  You listed several OP planes that are not bombers or Tier IX and X.  Is it fair for pilots to fly them?


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WhoaBlackBetty #10 Posted 26 October 2020 - 05:48 AM

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Bunch of bunk.  Unfair is not the same as unfortunate. That right there is a concept lost on too many.

De-arse your bunks! Man the planes! The Fokkers are in sight! BAM ba LAMMM!

 

Also: J311yfish: " 'Seal clubbing' and 'head hunting' are an inseparable part of the competitive nature of the game, and both provide a valuable service."

                                                                                                                     

       


SpiritFoxMY #11 Posted 26 October 2020 - 05:53 AM

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1. Split-tiering is an absolute advantage if done properly. People have explained this often enough and if you can't already understand it, its because you don't want to. One last time - some planes are overpowered at their tiers and are thus competitive at the tier above them. Some planes are overpowered for their tiers and completely stomp people of that tier or lower. You seem to agree on this statement. So when you use split-tiering to rig the matchmaker to ensure you are never matched against the tier above by picking a plane that is competitive as your "fixer" then the overpowered plane can run riot while the downtiered plane can hold its own. More importantly, it requires that people knowingly choose to do this and coordinate this kind of tactic. This is "rigging the system" and is different from simply choosing to fly an overpowered plane. Why not fly two tier 6 overpowered planes and let the matchmaker decide? Why choose instead to rig it to ensure you get the best possible matchmaking for the plane on top? As I have explained in detail in the past, you are basically stacking the deck to ensure you never get an unfavorable match. Only neutral and favorable matches. The only time its "unfavorable" is when the players are so bad that even playing with a loaded dice, they are unable to perform. I can name two such players and I had a great deal of entertainment bombkilling one of them recently.

 

2. The issue is that there is no response to high tier bombers other than "fly heavies". This is the problem with most bombers but really becomes a problem at tier 9 and 10. You literally cannot play anything else. Against a decently capable bomber player, you either play heavy or lose. This is a little less so against the EF-131/Ju-287 because there are one or two map layouts that are pure garrison/airfields but in a Specialized Su-10, it takes a superior skill and a lot of luck to beat one of those things flown well. You either outnumber him and outskill him or he has to have the deck so badly loaded against him that he can't do anything in order to beat him. That is the issue with the high tier bombers - they make entire classes (Light Fighters, Multiroles and Ground Attackers) obsolete just by existing. As bad as they are, the Ki-102, Me-410, Tu-1 and P-38Fs can be beaten either at their own games or by simply avoiding them and playing around them. You simply cannot do that to bombers in 9 out of 10 maps at period III.


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So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


losttwo #12 Posted 26 October 2020 - 06:14 AM

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Unfair is an emotional response based on imaginary feelings.

Fair is playing within the parameters of the rules and using any advantage available.

  Split tiering is FAIR play.

  Flying OP planes is fair play.

 

Oh wait I just remembered now.

 

I really wanted to state that playing in a flight is unfair play.

Us solo pilots are punished and picked on by you OP flight jockeys

BAN FLIGHTS



Captain_Underpants53 #13 Posted 26 October 2020 - 06:14 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 26 October 2020 - 12:53 AM, said:

1. Split-tiering is an absolute advantage if done properly. People have explained this often enough and if you can't already understand it, its because you don't want to. One last time - some planes are overpowered at their tiers and are thus competitive at the tier above them. Some planes are overpowered for their tiers and completely stomp people of that tier or lower. You seem to agree on this statement. So when you use split-tiering to rig the matchmaker to ensure you are never matched against the tier above by picking a plane that is competitive as your "fixer" then the overpowered plane can run riot while the downtiered plane can hold its own. More importantly, it requires that people knowingly choose to do this and coordinate this kind of tactic. This is "rigging the system" and is different from simply choosing to fly an overpowered plane. Why not fly two tier 6 overpowered planes and let the matchmaker decide? Why choose instead to rig it to ensure you get the best possible matchmaking for the plane on top? As I have explained in detail in the past, you are basically stacking the deck to ensure you never get an unfavorable match. Only neutral and favorable matches. The only time its "unfavorable" is when the players are so bad that even playing with a loaded dice, they are unable to perform. I can name two such players and I had a great deal of entertainment bombkilling one of them recently.

 

2. The issue is that there is no response to high tier bombers other than "fly heavies". This is the problem with most bombers but really becomes a problem at tier 9 and 10. You literally cannot play anything else. Against a decently capable bomber player, you either play heavy or lose. This is a little less so against the EF-131/Ju-287 because there are one or two map layouts that are pure garrison/airfields but in a Specialized Su-10, it takes a superior skill and a lot of luck to beat one of those things flown well. You either outnumber him and outskill him or he has to have the deck so badly loaded against him that he can't do anything in order to beat him. That is the issue with the high tier bombers - they make entire classes (Light Fighters, Multiroles and Ground Attackers) obsolete just by existing. As bad as they are, the Ki-102, Me-410, Tu-1 and P-38Fs can be beaten either at their own games or by simply avoiding them and playing around them. You simply cannot do that to bombers in 9 out of 10 maps at period III.

!;  Everyone can freely use this tactic.  Therefore I think it fair.

 

2;  Everyone can get to the Ju 287 and EF 131 and fly them.  Therefore I think it fair.  By no means are all the bombers 'carry' planes.  The Tier IX and X are.


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SenatorTH #14 Posted 26 October 2020 - 07:39 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 25 October 2020 - 10:14 PM, said:

!;  Everyone can freely use this tactic.  Therefore I think it fair.

 

2;  Everyone can get to the Ju 287 and EF 131 and fly them.  Therefore I think it fair.  By no means are all the bombers 'carry' planes.  The Tier IX and X are.

 

Everyone can earn money and buy whatever he wants. Hence poverty doesn't exist.

Everyone can be elected and become a president. Hence, all people are equal.

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KAIM_INVICTUS #15 Posted 26 October 2020 - 08:52 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 26 October 2020 - 01:51 PM, said:

what I would define as "unfair" is simply deliberate exploiting of broken mechanics for selfish gain when you have a clear and simple alternative that would be "fairer". 

 

Best Answer.



losttwo #16 Posted 26 October 2020 - 11:25 AM

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I think we should start testing for game enhancing steroids and ban players using them.

trikke #17 Posted 26 October 2020 - 02:11 PM

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the NFL changes many rules each year...  to prevent injuries to players and equalize unfair advantages that teams have developed during previous years

 

WG could do the same here, but is somewhat hands-off about it in all of their games       concepts like fairness and balance are low priorities in some countries 

 

war, on the other hand, is about gaining all the unfair advantages that you can         

 

so you can imagine how hard it would be for WG to build a game that would satisfy western sensibilities       

 

they're certainly not going to change anything now, since NA is such a small percentage of overall users

 

new pilots will continue to get shelled by vets, and only a few will stick around        it is what it is


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore       

jack_wdw #18 Posted 26 October 2020 - 04:43 PM

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SpiritFoxMY's replies are spot on (like always).

Someone should make those posts sticky

SkyWolf__WM #19 Posted 26 October 2020 - 06:03 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 25 October 2020 - 11:25 PM, said:

I see folks complaining about many things.  The topic of unfairness comes up very often. 

 

'No fair, your bots were better than mine!'  'No fair, you rammed me!'  'No fair, you were in a flight!'  'No fair, you had a higher tier plane than me!'  'No fair, you had more Spec planes on your side!'  'No fair, you were using Gold Consumables!'  'No fair, you were camping the spawn point!'  'No fair, you were flying a (fill in the plane class you hate to fly)!  'No fair, the MM loves you best!'  'No fair, you shot a noob!'

 

I admit, some of these things are irritating but unfair?  I think not.  As long as they are within the rules of the game and available to all, there is no unfairness here.  I probably forgot some of the complaints I've seen but feel free to add to the list.

 

It's unfair when I lose.   :hiding:


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WhoaBlackBetty #20 Posted 26 October 2020 - 06:05 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 25 October 2020 - 11:53 PM, said:

1. Split-tiering is an absolute advantage if done properly. People have explained this often enough and if you can't already understand it, its because you don't want to. One last time - some planes are overpowered at their tiers and are thus competitive at the tier above them. Some planes are overpowered for their tiers and completely stomp people of that tier or lower. You seem to agree on this statement. So when you use split-tiering to rig the matchmaker to ensure you are never matched against the tier above by picking a plane that is competitive as your "fixer" then the overpowered plane can run riot while the downtiered plane can hold its own. More importantly, it requires that people knowingly choose to do this and coordinate this kind of tactic. This is "rigging the system" and is different from simply choosing to fly an overpowered plane. Why not fly two tier 6 overpowered planes and let the matchmaker decide? Why choose instead to rig it to ensure you get the best possible matchmaking for the plane on top? As I have explained in detail in the past, you are basically stacking the deck to ensure you never get an unfavorable match. Only neutral and favorable matches. The only time its "unfavorable" is when the players are so bad that even playing with a loaded dice, they are unable to perform. I can name two such players and I had a great deal of entertainment bombkilling one of them recently.

 

2. The issue is that there is no response to high tier bombers other than "fly heavies". This is the problem with most bombers but really becomes a problem at tier 9 and 10. You literally cannot play anything else. Against a decently capable bomber player, you either play heavy or lose. This is a little less so against the EF-131/Ju-287 because there are one or two map layouts that are pure garrison/airfields but in a Specialized Su-10, it takes a superior skill and a lot of luck to beat one of those things flown well. You either outnumber him and outskill him or he has to have the deck so badly loaded against him that he can't do anything in order to beat him. That is the issue with the high tier bombers - they make entire classes (Light Fighters, Multiroles and Ground Attackers) obsolete just by existing. As bad as they are, the Ki-102, Me-410, Tu-1 and P-38Fs can be beaten either at their own games or by simply avoiding them and playing around them. You simply cannot do that to bombers in 9 out of 10 maps at period III.

 

No.  Sounds great as usual, but no.

 

Game dynamics that require one to think, to strategize, to improve, are not the gaming of a system. They are to be discovered and used by pilots interested enough to make use of them because that is what they are there for.  

 

There is no OP plane in any tier unless there is a pilot who knows how to make it so.  It is up to the rest of us to learn who can fly what and how our strategy needs to adjust, and how our skills need to be developed.

 

MM for us is a throw of the dice mostly with some effort in MM programming to attempt to construct even matches.  There is just no way, mostly because of almost no human population, matches can be evenly matched due to different pilot skills, how much any of them has had to drink, and our separate reasons to fly what we are flying, and how we are flying the chosen plane.  Is it our goal to win, to just kill AAs and/or GTs, is it simply to take down planes?  No, MM cannot adjust for any of this.

 

What I see described here are not unfair things, but simply obstacles to try to overcome with improved skills, simple as that.  You are gonna win, you are gonna lose, you are in the MM dice throw gonna come up against two excellent pilots in 131s.  You are gonna face split tier flights, you are gonna face higher and lower tiers, and you are gonna face pilots who will exploderate you without even trying.  The better you get, the more often you will out fight these obstacles.

 

You two 131s, I am trying to learn how to be dangerous in the Javelin.  You will still whip me, but less easily AS I IMPROVE.  At some point, if I persevere, I will finally defeat you, at least once, but not for a while.  I do not see this as unfair, I see this as a challenge. I intend to, where the Javelin is concerned, to L2P, git gud.

 

WBB


De-arse your bunks! Man the planes! The Fokkers are in sight! BAM ba LAMMM!

 

Also: J311yfish: " 'Seal clubbing' and 'head hunting' are an inseparable part of the competitive nature of the game, and both provide a valuable service."

                                                                                                                     

       






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