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When the AI bots are a close match, then it's human pilot skills and this is what can happen


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MarkoPollo42 #1 Posted 28 June 2020 - 12:37 PM

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Hello pilots. I created the AI bot mismatch thread and we all know that far too often the matchmaking system of WoWP does not do a good job of picking the bot planes and the battle is already won or lost because of the AI imbalance before it has begun. But when the few times that the matchmaking system does happen to get the bot balance just right (just by random chance) then when flying a perfectly specialized plane and with good flying skills WoWP goes from and exercise in frustration to a near perfect super fun to play aerial combat game. This just happened this morning on a 3 sector map (my once in a blue moon perfect bot setup) that allowed me to achieve this:

 

Battle results

My team won 400 to 363 (https://i.imgur.com/07Iri0Fl.jpg)

 

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Conqueror

Marseille Medal (+1 token)

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Kozhedub Medal (+1 token)

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Flying Warrior Badge

 

Expert Pilot

Effective Fire

Subjugator

 

The most important info for feedback to the WoWP developers is that this battle was not totally one-sided with one team of bots totally dominating the other side. This was a near perfect AI bot alignment so it allowed for the human pilot skills to shine through (or not) and determine the outcome of the battle. I could have just as easily lost if I wasn't on my A game as an I-17 pilot.

 

This is what WoWP should be most of the time with nearly even AI bots on both sides and the battle is won or lost based on the human pilots and the planes being flown by them. But sadly far too much of the time we're in battles that are way lopsided in the bots configuration and it's either "yea, I'm on the good bot side and can easily win" or "crap, another bad bot assignment and loss".

 

I'm amazed and super pleased at what Big World has coded for the maps with a super 3D environment  to fly in. The illusion of distance (3D perspective) is perfect, and the handling of the planes using a mouse/keyboard (haven't ever wanted to try a joystick.. no need to) is so smooth and easy that it's super fun to fly here. Now if we could only get the developers to work on the matchmaking system to get us more battles like this one (plus a clan battle match system... another of my threads) that remove the high frustration of playing WoWP because the bot setup is super lopsided then Wargaming would/should have a fantastic flying game with a much larger playerbase.

 

Note: I sure hope that the developers are not totally ignoring our feedback and WoWP is only in "maintenance mode" as others have posted in other threads. That is very sad if true as I just experienced in this 1 battle what should be the norm for playing, that the AI bots are a closer head-to-head balance and let the human pilots abilities come to the forefront and win/lose the battles.


Edited by MarkoPollo42, 02 July 2020 - 01:33 PM.


MarkoPollo42 #2 Posted 28 June 2020 - 01:18 PM

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Next battle in my I-17 and it was over (lost) from the get-go. The matchmaking system once again foobar-ed the AI bot balance and it was no contest.

https://i.imgur.com/ds0EpCEl.jpg

The red team grabbed 3 of the 5 sectors quickly, the one I captured was quickly lost as a flew over to capture another sector, the 2nd sector I captured was lost as I flew to a 3rd sector, I got shot down by a bot as it was super overtuned and I was like a bot plane magnet, and the battle was over before I could get back in. Because this is the norm when flying here it has to have pissed off a huge segment of their playerbase and lost them ("this is b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t-! @#$%... I quit"). I haven't reached that level of frustration with the unbalanced bot matchmaking system just yet (only 4 months of flying time) but it doesn't do my mood any good when I'm put on the side that I have less than zero chance of being able to win.  


Edited by MarkoPollo42, 02 July 2020 - 01:38 PM.


Captain_Underpants53 #3 Posted 28 June 2020 - 01:39 PM

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The game is designed in such a way that NO ONE can win every match.  Think about it.  If you could win every match every time you click the BATTLE button, just how long would you play?  The challenge is the thing that draws us.  Take the challenge away and we would all go somewhere to shoot dice.

 

:coin:


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farquare #4 Posted 28 June 2020 - 03:10 PM

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Underpants is soooo smart... that is how he keeps all those women in his clan!!!!

 

 

 



losttwo #5 Posted 28 June 2020 - 03:24 PM

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First thing you need to do is...oh never mind.

It wont matter what I say.

 

You are convinced that it is all about  per-determined win/ lose.

That it has nothing to do with how you play the game.

 

I find it strange that so many players have win rates above 60% and not all of them flight up.

Even my win rate continues to climb from when I started.

I fly such a variety of planes but yet it keeps climbing.

 

Perhaps what improves my play experience is that I play with no conspiracy theories in my head.

No expectations, no preconceived ideas.

I just simply play a strategic game according to the map and the plane I am flying.

I do not shoot outside the sectors unless I own the sector.

Run away outside the sector if someone is on my tail.

Use terrain.

I target white ADA before red planes. Or red ADA before enemy.

 

Make use of the command keys.

I do not target LOCKED sectors until after they unlock.

I do not enter a locked sector for a kill.

 

That is just the basics of how I play.

Yes i make use of respawn.



Captain_Underpants53 #6 Posted 28 June 2020 - 03:41 PM

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View Postfarquare, on 28 June 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

Underpants is soooo smart... that is how he keeps all those women in his clan!!!!

 

 

 


I believe it is my swavae and deboner personality.


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Ju4mpi #7 Posted 28 June 2020 - 03:54 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 28 June 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

(...)

I target white ADA before red planes. Or red ADA before enemy.1a

I thought this was the other way. Enemy plane give more points to capture than ADA planes.



MarkoPollo42 #8 Posted 28 June 2020 - 04:05 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 28 June 2020 - 08:39 AM, said:

The game is designed in such a way that NO ONE can win every match.  Think about it.  If you could win every match every time you click the BATTLE button, just how long would you play?  The challenge is the thing that draws us.  Take the challenge away and we would all go somewhere to shoot dice.

 

:coin:

I never said that I expected to be able to win every battle. That is neither logical or desirable (no challenge so why am I playing here?) . What I am desiring is that the code that determines what bot planes to assign to each team to fill out the 12 planes on each side, what most call the "matchmaking system", that this code be refined and tweaked to deliver more battles that are not as lopsided as the current matchmaking code does end up creating. When you know that no matter how well you fly, or shoot down opponents and ADA, or understand the map and capture the strategic sectors (like mining plants that provide extra bonus points), the AI bots are such a bad mismatch (one side of the bots is crushing the other side), that being on the team with the inferior bots means you are 99% guaranteed to lose, it is the frequency of these bot unbalanced battles that the WoWP devs need to fix.

 

Let me state the obvious. We're here playing WoWP for fun and not for an accurate realistic combat flight simulation. But we do have personal expectations that the game developers are going to provide as level of a playing field as possible so that we human pilots can and are the deciding factor in a majority of the battles we fly. But when the matchmaking system that sets up the 2 teams of bots creates such an imbalance between the teams such that you know within a couple of minutes which side will win, not because of the human pilots skills, but because the AI bot planes on one side is crushing the other side, that kind of battlefield imbalance (starting conditions) I would like to see eliminated. This serves no useful purpose either. It doesn't make for more enjoyment (just more frustration if on the bad bot side and boredom when on the good bot side) and doesn't motivate me to improve flying/shooting skills (play better) when it's a lost cause for that specific battle. For me it's the complete opposite and when I'm on the "haven't got a snowballs chance in hell of winning" side I feel more like bailing to go to the next map and "what's the point of sticking it out just for the 1000 xp" unless there is a daily mission goal that I'm grinding xp to complete. Otherwise I'm wasting my time in that hopelessly lost battle when I could be in the next one and hopefully having a chance to win (maybe not but at least I'm optimistic that the next match will be a fairer bot balance). Close battles that I win or loss are a hell of lot more fun than any that are blowouts from the get-go even if I'm on the winning side.


Edited by MarkoPollo42, 28 June 2020 - 04:47 PM.


losttwo #9 Posted 28 June 2020 - 04:53 PM

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View PostJu4mpi, on 28 June 2020 - 10:54 AM, said:

I thought this was the other way. Enemy plane give more points to capture than ADA planes.

 

 Try it in match and pay attention.

 Pay attention to the sector circle and what you are shooting.

Watch your replays and see what you did for what.

The hardest sector to capture is the military base because you need both ADA plus red planes or ground targets.

Watch how quickly you can steal a sector focusing on the ADA rather than the red planes.



MarkoPollo42 #10 Posted 28 June 2020 - 05:15 PM

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I agree with losttwo that over time if you are improving your flying skills you are also improving your win/loss percentages. That's a no-brainer. There are battles that can be lost if flown poorly or bad decisions are made on which sector to capture, or even bad bot management (should have sent them to attack/defend a different sector, etc.). That happens all the time. But there are just too many times that the bots don't match up very well and one side blows out the other. With most battles having so few human pilots most of the time (a reflection of WoWP ignoring player feedback and making bad decisions on what features players want in WoWP, resulting in a huge loss of their playerbase) flying with most of the team being AI bots is the norm and as such the bots do make/break which side wins. As I gain experience I can affect the outcome more and more (to be expected) but there are still lots of battles that have nothing to do with human player skills and it's only a matter of the luck of the draw being assigned to the better AI bot team that determines whether I will win or not.   


Edited by MarkoPollo42, 28 June 2020 - 05:15 PM.


losttwo #11 Posted 28 June 2020 - 05:17 PM

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View PostMarkoPollo42, on 28 June 2020 - 11:05 AM, said:

I never said that I expected to be able to win every battle....  edited for brevity... Close battles that I win or loss are a hell of lot more fun than any that are blowouts from the get-go even if I'm on the winning side.

 

When you begin to understand that the match maker simply and RANDOMLY picks

Lets say a tier 6 match : randomly choosing from tier 6 and from tier 5

4 bombers out of a pile of .... what would that be ? something like 7 choices between

4 GA          out of how many tier 5 and 6 GA available.  Something like 5 variable choices

4 jeavies

8 multi-roles

4 fighters

 

How may fighters are there at tier 5 and 6...something like 13 choices per side for bots.

The fighters alone is a random selection of 2 out of 13 possibilities per side.

The matches are not mirror images minus the humans.

 

The match maker is simply random

You as the player have to overcome that randomness.

There are planes that are faster than other and engage faster than others.

It is the simplistic of the entire concept that makes people want to cry foul and unfair.



losttwo #12 Posted 28 June 2020 - 05:23 PM

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View PostMarkoPollo42, on 28 June 2020 - 12:15 PM, said:

I agree with losttwo that over time if you are improving your flying skills you are also improving your win/loss percentages. That's a no-brainer. There are battles that can be lost if flown poorly or bad decisions are made on which sector to capture, or even bad bot management (should have sent them to attack/defend a different sector, etc.). That happens all the time. But there are just too many times that the bots don't match up very well and one side blows out the other. With most battles having so few human pilots most of the time (a reflection of WoWP ignoring player feedback and making bad decisions on what features players want in WoWP, resulting in a huge loss of their playerbase) flying with most of the team being AI bots is the norm and as such the bots do make/break which side wins. As I gain experience I can affect the outcome more and more (to be expected) but there are still lots of battles that have nothing to do with human player skills and it's only a matter of the luck of the draw being assigned to the better AI bot team that determines whether I will win or not.   

 

If you keep improving you will get to a point where you do not lose any " all bot " battles.

UNLESS YOU MAKE A MISTAKE.

  like getting rammed at match start by a bot ADA. For me it is a total match loss.

I have not yet been able to get my bots motivated to win the match after being the first one shot down.

 

 



MarkoPollo42 #13 Posted 28 June 2020 - 05:55 PM

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But losttwo you are dead wrong in stating that the matchmaking system is fair. After my last post a few minutes ago I flew my I-17 on a desert map with 3 sectors, a mining plant and 2 air bases. There were 2 other human pilots. I immediately rushed in and captured the mining plant. I defended it for most of the battle and shot down several human pilots and got shot down only once by a human pilot (only because my hp was low by that time). While defending off a slew of AI bot planes and holding that sector the read team had captured the 2 airfields. Naturally with a 2 sector to 1 the red team was ahead on points. Within 3 seconds of being shot down the mining plant flipped over to the red team. Of course the battle was lost. So where were the other 2 human pilots? I never saw either of them so I guess they could have been AFK and that left me at a severe disadvantage. But more importantly, why was the red team keeping control of the 2 airbases while throwing many bots at me defending the mining plant? What in the world were my bots doing? Certainly not capturing either of the airbases and only 1 of them was flying escort with me over the mining plant. The AI system had set the bot parameters (AI variables) such that my bots were inept against the other teams bots. I was out turning and out gunning the other human pilots but still had no chance of pulling out a win because the AI bots were unbalanced and the deck was stacked against me. This happens with too much frequency and this is the reason the WOWP devs need to rework the bot setup (matchmaking) so that the playing field is more level. It is certainly not that way now.

losttwo #14 Posted 28 June 2020 - 06:18 PM

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View PostMarkoPollo42, on 28 June 2020 - 12:55 PM, said:

But losttwo you are dead wrong in stating that the matchmaking system is fair. After my last post a few minutes ago I flew my I-17 on a desert map with 3 sectors, a mining plant and 2 air bases. There were 2 other human pilots. I immediately rushed in and captured the mining plant. I defended it for most of the battle and shot down several human pilots and got shot down only once by a human pilot (only because my hp was low by that time). While defending off a slew of AI bot planes and holding that sector the read team had captured the 2 airfields. Naturally with a 2 sector to 1 the red team was ahead on points. Within 3 seconds of being shot down the mining plant flipped over to the red team. Of course the battle was lost. So where were the other 2 human pilots? I never saw either of them so I guess they could have been AFK and that left me at a severe disadvantage. But more importantly, why was the red team keeping control of the 2 airbases while throwing many bots at me defending the mining plant? What in the world were my bots doing? Certainly not capturing either of the airbases and only 1 of them was flying escort with me over the mining plant. The AI system had set the bot parameters (AI variables) such that my bots were inept against the other teams bots. I was out turning and out gunning the other human pilots but still had no chance of pulling out a win because the AI bots were unbalanced and the deck was stacked against me. This happens with too much frequency and this is the reason the WOWP devs need to rework the bot setup (matchmaking) so that the playing field is more level. It is certainly not that way now.

 

Your definition of fair is wrong. Not wrong necessarily but when it comes to this game, it is.

You are expecting your definition of fairness or equal part. The concept you are failing to grasp is RANDOMNESS.

You also played the match wrong.

You want to win that map 98% of the time ?

I am going to shoot myself in the foot for saying this in the forums, thus giving away the secret... but.

Cap both airfields and not the mining plant. Unless you are a bomber pilot.

Send your bots to the opposite airfield you are capping. Request a support bot. 

Target the white ADA.

If you cap both airfields then you cut off the " shortcut respawn " to the mining plant.

You then have a team that can attack and cap the mining plant from 3 sides.

If you have not noticed. " Everyone " attacks the mining plant first.

After you cap the airfield you were working on then fly through the middle scoring as you go towards the other airfield to help.

This will at the very least give you the airfield and mining plant.

I noticed that if you hold both airfield and no mining plant. You can still win the match.

But you need both airfields at the very least.

 

Go ahead and try it. Remember it is also dependent on the humans you have in the game.

If you focus on the airfields you will win 98% of the time or at least you should win 98% of the time.

 

Still working on a good bomber strategy for that map.

 

 



losttwo #15 Posted 28 June 2020 - 06:32 PM

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Let me help you out a little bit more.

What are the bot bombers programmed to do per map.

For example : the higher tier map of 2 mining plants and 2 airfields.

The red bot bombers will always attack the mining plant closest to blue spawn.

The 1 mining plant 2 airfield map mentioned in last post.

 They will both attack the mining plant.

What are the heavy bots designed to do and yes it is plane type dependent

What about the bot fighters ? do you know which bot fighters are more proficient at engaging and capping than the others.

Did you know there are actually bots that will camp a sector with out being told to stay.

Does the ME 262 prioritize bombers or ADA ?

When will it prioritize ADA over a bomber.

 

Those are the things that will make the match more as you call it FAIR.

Discover those answers and the only thing left after that is the unknown of what a human will do.

Watch your replays and study them.


Edited by losttwo, 28 June 2020 - 06:42 PM.


trikke #16 Posted 29 June 2020 - 02:36 AM

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View Postfarquare, on 28 June 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

Underpants is soooo smart... that is how he keeps all those women in his clan!!!!

 

but what about the ones in his basement?        not gonna say that, he's a classy dude!


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

blindfoId #17 Posted 29 June 2020 - 09:43 AM

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Dear MarkoPollo42,

 

Here's an article about matchmaking system in World of Warplanes, probably you might find it interesting. One of the points is about bots skill level:

 

Block Quote

 Depending on the battle tier, their skill level will vary: for Tiers I-III, all of them will be beginners, for Tiers IV-V — warriors, and for Tiers VI-X — veterans.

 

Basically, it means that all bots in the battle have the same skill level. Matchmaking doesn't take into account your battle history, your winrate or anything connected to your pervious gaming experience at all. 

 



gerr22 #18 Posted 29 June 2020 - 11:52 AM

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Lostie has a tinfoil helmet

 



GonerNL #19 Posted 30 June 2020 - 08:54 AM

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View PostblindfoId, on 29 June 2020 - 10:43 AM, said:

Basically, it means that all bots in the battle have the same skill level. 

 

That's strange ... how come some bots know exactly what to do and get huge scores, while others just fly around and get themselves killed in inconvenient locations ?

RNG ?


Edited by GonerNL, 30 June 2020 - 08:54 AM.

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losttwo #20 Posted 30 June 2020 - 09:48 AM

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View PostGonerNL, on 30 June 2020 - 03:54 AM, said:

 

That's strange ... how come some bots know exactly what to do and get huge scores, while others just fly around and get themselves killed in inconvenient locations ?

RNG ?

 

I will break it down into old school table top game like squad leader or Luftwaffe. Even Advanced Dungeon and dragons.  

Basically it is all in the roll of the dice.

detection of enemy  is a dice roll.

                 You need a 15 or better on a 20 sided dice to detect.

once detected you need a 15 or better to get a surprise attack roll.

Dogfight you need 10 or better to hit minus enemy maneuvering and speed integers vs the difference of yours.

Damage done you need to roll on a 20 sided dice

Dogfight again until enemy reaches 0 HP.

 

So go ahead and get you a 20 sided dice or even 5 of them.

Heck go buy a table top game and see how lucky your dice rolls are.

 

What about your dice rolls in something as simple as Monopoly and trying to roll to get boardwalk and parkplace.






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