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My thoughts on split-tiering

My thoughts split-tiering

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Captain_Underpants53 #1 Posted 01 June 2020 - 01:10 PM

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I was flighted with a good stick (SkyPilot, I'm lookin' at you) this morning and we did swell.  But he is a fan of split-tier and I am not.  But, since I fly solo almost all the time, I've never really thought about the benefits and drawbacks.  So I got to thinkin'.  (UH OH)  

 

:ohmy:

 

Anyway, the game, as hard as it is to believe some days, balances out the battles you encounter as high tier or low tier.  For me, it turns out that right around 20 battles I will find a 50% balance of high/low.  I know this because I have gotten suspicious that I was getting shafted too much and I tracked it with pencil and paper at least half a dozen times.

 

What does this have to do with split-tier?  I'm glad you asked (even though you didn't).  If you continually fly as the high tier player in that split-tier flight you will build up a backlog of being low tier when you go solo or same tier flight.  Conversely, if you continually fly the low tier player in that flight you will build up a backlog of being high tier when you go solo or same tier flight.  The only way to avoid this backlog effect that I can see is to alternate who is high and who is low.

 

But then you still run into the problem of being 1 & 1/2 players in battle so I am still not a fan of split-tiering.

 

BTW, I would assume, but don't know, that this backlog effect would also take effect if you flew a bunch of Tier I or Tier X battles.

 

:unsure:

 

 

 


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SkyWolf__WM #2 Posted 01 June 2020 - 03:08 PM

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Interesting.     :medal:
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The_real_Gouldy #3 Posted 01 June 2020 - 03:10 PM

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Sounds like a lot of speculation on your part that the MM fairy will balance out your up tier/down tier battles while in a flight later when you are not in a flight.

 

True facts:  The MM treats a flight different from solo players.

                   The only reason a flight would split tier is to guarantee that one of them would be top tier, it's gaming the MM in your favor

                   & anybody that tries to say different is not being honest.

 

 



WhoaBlackBetty #4 Posted 01 June 2020 - 03:52 PM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 01 June 2020 - 09:10 AM, said:

Sounds like a lot of speculation on your part that the MM fairy will balance out your up tier/down tier battles while in a flight later when you are not in a flight.

 

True facts:  The MM treats a flight different from solo players.

                   The only reason a flight would split tier is to guarantee that one of them would be top tier, it's gaming the MM in your favor

                   & anybody that tries to say different is not being honest.

 

 

 

I disagree, but am not being dishonest.  If one member of the flight is high tier, the other is low tier so this "gaming" of the system is not gaming it at all.  The flight is gambling on what MM will throw at them both bot and human-wise, and that the low tier plane has been well enough selected to deal with the MM assembled higher tiered.battle. There is no system gaming here, nothing dishonorable, no cheating anything or anyone except perhaps the low tiered flight mate.  It is certain there will not be a higher tier than the high tier flight mate, but it guarantees the low tier flight mate will have to flight a tier above. How is this gaming anything to absolutely guarantee half of the flight will be lower tier against you know not what till the battle is assembled?  That is silly to me.

 

And no, I do not think MM has a backlog of hardly anything.  There are too many exceptions to that.  I think you would have to do the pencil thing for several thousand battles per plane grade and still have a wide margin of error.

 

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wylleEcoyote #5 Posted 01 June 2020 - 03:53 PM

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I will say this much about Split-tiering.

It absolutely tips the scales. Sometimes this is a good thing.

A 7-6 split tier would certainly make flying a tier 7 tolerable. Even a joy.
Tier 7 seems rather evenly balanced. Possibly the most balanced of tiers depending on whom you ask.
Until you have to factor in its performance vs Tier 8.

Perhaps you have a desire to embrace a challenge. so you hop into a plane that you particularly Love to fly and take the low end of a split tier.
Maybe you can combine your desire for a challenge with an ability to help out a friend that is going up a not so OP line of aircraft. 
(you in a german light fighter and your friend in an american multirole). 
 
Sometimes this is a bad thing.
Split-tier Spitfire flights where the participants swap positions between battles is just the first toxic pairing that comes to mind. Dont worry; there are others. 

In the end what will happen with this is entirely up to us, the players.
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The_real_Gouldy #6 Posted 01 June 2020 - 04:02 PM

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View PostWhoaBlackBetty, on 01 June 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

 

I disagree, but am not being dishonest.  If one member of the flight is high tier, the other is low tier so this "gaming" of the system is not gaming it at all.  The flight is gambling on what MM will throw at them both bot and human-wise, and that the low tier plane has been well enough selected to deal with the MM assembled higher tiered.battle. There is no system gaming here, nothing dishonorable, no cheating anything or anyone except perhaps the low tiered flight mate.  It is certain there will not be a higher tier than the high tier flight mate, but it guarantees the low tier flight mate will have to flight a tier above. How is this gaming anything to absolutely guarantee half of the flight will be lower tier against you know not what till the battle is assembled?  That is silly to me.

 

And no, I do not think MM has a backlog of hardly anything.  There are too many exceptions to that.  I think you would have to do the pencil thing for several thousand battles per plane grade and still have a wide margin of error.

 

WBB

 

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You just said it, you know for a fact that the higher tier plane in the flight will be top tier. That is exactly the reason for a split tier flight.

The people that are doing this know exactly what they are doing & yes it is gaming the MM.


Edited by The_real_Gouldy, 01 June 2020 - 04:02 PM.


WhoaBlackBetty #7 Posted 01 June 2020 - 04:09 PM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 01 June 2020 - 10:02 AM, said:

 

You just said it, you know for a fact that the higher tier plane in the flight will be top tier. That is exactly the reason for a split tier flight.

The people that are doing this know exactly what they are doing & yes it is gaming the MM.

 

It guarantees what the top tier is, and guarantees half the flight will be low tier.  That is what the split tier flight knows, so yes, they know exactly what they are doing.  :teethhappy:  There is the OTHER half your line of logic you are not progressing down.  Look at what you highlighted for goodness sake!  You left out the part that, to me, proves my point and disproves yours.  But this is all a matter of opinion, even what you called "true facts". :teethhappy:

 

WBB

 

 


Edited by WhoaBlackBetty, 01 June 2020 - 04:11 PM.

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The_real_Gouldy #8 Posted 01 June 2020 - 04:22 PM

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View PostWhoaBlackBetty, on 01 June 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

 

It guarantees what the top tier is, and guarantees half the flight will be low tier.  That is what the split tier flight knows, so yes, they know exactly what they are doing.  :teethhappy:  There is the OTHER half your line of logic you are not progressing down.  Look at what you highlighted for goodness sake!  You left out the part that, to me, proves my point and disproves yours.  But this is all a matter of opinion, even what you called "true facts". :teethhappy:

 

WBB

 

 

 

I am guessing since you are making such a fuss that you like to split tier flight & if that is the case then you are in fact being dishonest.

I could explain all the factors that determine why split tier flights are more successful but I am also guessing that you already know them.

As I have already said the people that do it know exactly what they are doing & why.



WhoaBlackBetty #9 Posted 01 June 2020 - 04:43 PM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 01 June 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

 

I am guessing since you are making such a fuss that you like to split tier flight & if that is the case then you are in fact being dishonest.

I could explain all the factors that determine why split tier flights are more successful but I am also guessing that you already know them.

As I have already said the people that do it know exactly what they are doing & why.

 

Cool, diff of opinions, me with logic and you with .... whatever. I respect your opinion and why you have it, I do, I get it. :honoring:

 

WBB


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losttwo #10 Posted 01 June 2020 - 04:44 PM

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Split tier flights have no honest/ dishonest factor involved.

It is with in the rules.

It is a legitimate legal game design to insure that 1 player is high tier.

A flight team of 6+7 will not see a 7+8 match.

However a solo pilot flying a tier 7 has a 50% chance of a tier 8 match.

No rule violation, no gaming, no dishonesty, no exploit.

Simple fact is that is how the system was designed to work.

If there was something wrong with it then would not Wargaming change the algorithm to not allow it.

 

As for the " KARMA " influenced match maker theory revolving around FLIGHTS vs SOLO for winning matches.

No there are no influential integers tossed into your personal profile to determine if your next match will be super bots or stupid bots.

High tier or low tier.

 

Like playing the lottery. You pick a plane and click battle.

You get tossed into a hat until the MM picks you out of the line up.


Edited by losttwo, 01 June 2020 - 04:48 PM.


Silence6966 #11 Posted 01 June 2020 - 04:54 PM

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split tiering is annoying and is totally an exploit, its also allowable under the rules and therefore is not wrong or bad or dishonest.

the most annoying ones are when you see teams purposefully choosing a topflight plane that is competitive with one tier above and a toptier plane that is dominant, they usually alternate. deepfry and I almost never split tier because even though we are flighted, both of us are always competing with eachother for #1 in the game lol and nobody wants to give the other the advantage. as for the MM I think its garbage, out of 12 games yesterday we were low tiered in 8 in a row. in 2 of them, there was only one human on the other team and he was top tiered, how does that even make sense?
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SkyWolf__WM #12 Posted 01 June 2020 - 04:57 PM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 01 June 2020 - 11:22 AM, said:

 

I am guessing since you are making such a fuss that you like to split tier flight & if that is the case then you are in fact being dishonest.

I could explain all the factors that determine why split tier flights are more successful but I am also guessing that you already know them.

As I have already said the people that do it know exactly what they are doing & why.

Guaranteeing that one plane in your flight is always LOW tier is "gaming" the system. I love how you think. In that, you do not.  :teethhappy:


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The_real_Gouldy #13 Posted 01 June 2020 - 05:02 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 01 June 2020 - 11:57 AM, said:

Guaranteeing that one plane in your flight is always LOW tier is "gaming" the system. I love how you think. In that, you do not.  :teethhappy:

 

It's understandable that you would do split tier flights to game the MM, you need all the advantage that you can get.

I guess the only problem for you would be finding a competent flight mate to carry you.



WhoaBlackBetty #14 Posted 01 June 2020 - 06:25 PM

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Some of you still ignore that the "exploit" is offset by the lower tier flight mate.  This makes it not an exploit.

 

OK. Circle made again, I'm out!

 

WBB


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losttwo #15 Posted 01 June 2020 - 06:31 PM

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View PostWhoaBlackBetty, on 01 June 2020 - 01:25 PM, said:

Some of you still ignore that the "exploit" is offset by the lower tier flight mate.  This makes it not an exploit.

 

OK. Circle made again, I'm out!

 

WBB

 

A far cry from when this game had a 3 tier difference and people whined about flying a tier 4 against tier 6.

Wargaming solution was to split tier and place limit on highest tier in flight.

 

I actually miss the 3 tier battles.

As well as the medal that went with it.



Captain_Underpants53 #16 Posted 01 June 2020 - 06:31 PM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 01 June 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

Sounds like a lot of speculation on your part that the MM fairy will balance out your up tier/down tier battles while in a flight later when you are not in a flight.

 

True facts:  The MM treats a flight different from solo players.

                   The only reason a flight would split tier is to guarantee that one of them would be top tier, it's gaming the MM in your favor

                   & anybody that tries to say different is not being honest.

 

 


Gonna have to disagree then.  If you want to call that being dishonest, go for it.  I don't care.  As far as the speculation and the 'MM fairy'  check it out for yourself.  Note every game that you are high tier and every game that you are low tier and you will find the same thing I did.  The MM pushes you to a 50% high/low split.

 

This would not work if you flight with someone who has a big backlog of flights being the high tier plane.


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The_real_Gouldy #17 Posted 01 June 2020 - 07:42 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 01 June 2020 - 01:31 PM, said:


This would not work if you flight with someone who has a big backlog of flights being the high tier plane.

 

Yes it works every time you split tier, high tier plane is always top tier no matter what, it's coded into the MM.

 

Now show me data from the whole server  that the MM has a memory & will balance you 50/50 low tier to high tier. Also how does that work out for people that spam tier 10?

I think that tier, time & plane selection has more to do with MM putting you top/low tier. That's just an opinion because even if WG has data on it they will never release it.

 

 



Captain_Underpants53 #18 Posted 01 June 2020 - 07:49 PM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 01 June 2020 - 02:42 PM, said:

 

Yes it works every time you split tier, high tier plane is always top tier no matter what, it's coded into the MM.

 

Now show me data from the whole server  that the MM has a memory & will balance you 50/50 low tier to high tier. Also how does that work out for people that spam tier 10?

I think that tier, time & plane selection has more to do with MM putting you top/low tier. That's just an opinion because even if WG has data on it they will never release it.

 

 


You enjoy cherry-picking, don't you.  Read the whole post.  I was referring to you actually tracking the # of high tier flights you get VS the # of low tier flights.

 

But kudos on figuring out that the MM will never put you in a battle with planes of a higher tier than your split-flight highest tier plane.


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Captain_Underpants53 #19 Posted 01 June 2020 - 07:51 PM

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View PostThe_real_Gouldy, on 01 June 2020 - 12:02 PM, said:

 

It's understandable that you would do split tier flights to game the MM, you need all the advantage that you can get.

I guess the only problem for you would be finding a competent flight mate to carry you.


So you resort to insult when your logic is non-existent?


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qu33kKC #20 Posted 01 June 2020 - 08:35 PM

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I would like to point out another benefit of a split-tier flight:  helping a new player.  Say I'm trying to help a newbie get some better results.  They get to be top tier, and hopefully can learn some things along with way, without running the risk of getting clobbered by uptier bots/humans.  And as long as I choose my down-tier plane to be able to stay in roughly same envelope, I can help keep said newbie alive by clearing their six.  I don't see the game mechanic as being a bad OR a good thing, it merely IS.  Depends on how you use it.




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