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Tilted mechanics "The Bends" are necessary

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Leadlooser #1 Posted 17 November 2019 - 05:09 PM

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We all feel dissatisfaction when we have good personal point games though we try to be strategic, too, and lose.  It happens over and over.  The average player covers their team’s goals as best they can and scores well only to suffer a leeching loss.

 

“Gosh darn ‘bots’!”  ‘Why can’t they take/defend a sector?’

 

I guess even if we try HARD, the game bends/tilts the odds.  THIS IS NECESSARY!

 

If the ‘tilt’ exists naught, the masters of the game would squash all us underlings EVERY TIME!  The tilt makes the overlords and the menial to compete from time to time - sometimes it’s a cake walk and other times like dragging donkeys to drink.  I think there are a rare few games in which we find our teams AND BOTS well balanced.

 

Certainly the best players will have the advantage, but occasionally the lesser players may receive a ‘handicap,’ to bolster their chances, and oppositely there are games in which the stars align for the elite.

 

When you have a ‘face-palm game,’ consider this.



legoboy0401 #2 Posted 18 November 2019 - 02:54 AM

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View PostLeadlooser, on 17 November 2019 - 09:09 AM, said:

We all feel dissatisfaction when we have good personal point games though we try to be strategic, too, and lose.  It happens over and over.  The average player covers their team’s goals as best they can and scores well only to suffer a leeching loss.

 

“Gosh darn ‘bots’!”  ‘Why can’t they take/defend a sector?’

 

I guess even if we try HARD, the game bends/tilts the odds.  THIS IS NECESSARY!

 

If the ‘tilt’ exists naught, the masters of the game would squash all us underlings EVERY TIME!  The tilt makes the overlords and the menial to compete from time to time - sometimes it’s a cake walk and other times like dragging donkeys to drink.  I think there are a rare few games in which we find our teams AND BOTS well balanced.

 

Certainly the best players will have the advantage, but occasionally the lesser players may receive a ‘handicap,’ to bolster their chances, and oppositely there are games in which the stars align for the elite.

 

When you have a ‘face-palm game,’ consider this.


Yup. Then there are the cursed planes, you know the ones. You know the ones, the ones that are in your hangar but you always hesitate to play, that you don’t enjoy playing, because no matter how well on average in them you might do, you still can’t get a win in them to save your life, and getting a win in them happens about once in a blue moon.

 

You know the ones, the ones that takes AGES to grind through, because no matter how well you do, you always make very little XP because you are almost never able to take advantage of their first wins of the day XP multipliers.


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


Captain_Underpants53 #3 Posted 18 November 2019 - 03:15 AM

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View PostLeadlooser, on 17 November 2019 - 12:09 PM, said:

We all feel dissatisfaction when we have good personal point games though we try to be strategic, too, and lose.  It happens over and over.  The average player covers their team’s goals as best they can and scores well only to suffer a leeching loss.

 

“Gosh darn ‘bots’!”  ‘Why can’t they take/defend a sector?’

 

I guess even if we try HARD, the game bends/tilts the odds.  THIS IS NECESSARY!

 

If the ‘tilt’ exists naught, the masters of the game would squash all us underlings EVERY TIME!  The tilt makes the overlords and the menial to compete from time to time - sometimes it’s a cake walk and other times like dragging donkeys to drink.  I think there are a rare few games in which we find our teams AND BOTS well balanced.

 

Certainly the best players will have the advantage, but occasionally the lesser players may receive a ‘handicap,’ to bolster their chances, and oppositely there are games in which the stars align for the elite.

 

When you have a ‘face-palm game,’ consider this.


:medal:

 

I have learned not to expect much from the blue bots.  But it is maddening when human team mates just don't seem to have a clue about the relative values of various targets.


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Bluegoose02 #4 Posted 18 November 2019 - 03:53 AM

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To be honest with you they ( WarGame )said everyone would have a 50/50 chance of winning with the bots. I just don't see that happening.

Zigfreid #5 Posted 18 November 2019 - 04:58 AM

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Lead hi ya doing buddy the game is far from being perfect.

But when i see you fly you are always solo never flighted.

You are also without clan tags, so are missing a lot of good info.

Our clan had 58 fly yesterday and averaged 65% win rate.

So get some comms a wingman or a clan, all will bring up your wins.

If nothing else you will have more fun when playing, its all about having fun!

Yesterday a new pilot joined our clan and we flighted up we laugh and joked

had a great time 3 hours and 20+ games later we were holding 80% wins.

The new pilot was Bamablitz he said the comms and flighted made it so much fun!


Edited by Zigfreid, 18 November 2019 - 01:57 PM.


SpiritFoxMY #6 Posted 18 November 2019 - 05:32 AM

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I was talking to Rei about this after a particularly heartbreaking defeat that the game feels more unfair than it probably is because of the whole "bots lost the game for me" feel. Whereas if it had been a human player who scored that last clutch shot, it would have been more a case of "he got lucky/he played well/he made the right call", when you lose a game because of a bot (or bots) the outcome feels especially unjust because you were denied that win by a line of code that just happened to trigger at an inopportune time. There's no element of a game well played - it's just that the game literally decided to nope you at that exact moment.

 

The bots probably don't have any kind of complex algorithm weighting for or against players (if it did then its doing a pretty poor job of it), it just feels that way because when they DO roll up a particularly toxic combination, it feels doubly unfair of being kicked by both the matchmaker and the game's AI.

 

Also Ziggy has a point - flight up. At worst, misery loves company. 


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And a laurel to crown each end


CorvusCorvax #7 Posted 18 November 2019 - 06:09 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 18 November 2019 - 05:32 AM, said:

I was talking to Rei about this after a particularly heartbreaking defeat that the game feels more unfair than it probably is because of the whole "bots lost the game for me" feel. Whereas if it had been a human player who scored that last clutch shot, it would have been more a case of "he got lucky/he played well/he made the right call", when you lose a game because of a bot (or bots) the outcome feels especially unjust because you were denied that win by a line of code that just happened to trigger at an inopportune time. There's no element of a game well played - it's just that the game literally decided to nope you at that exact moment.

 

The bots probably don't have any kind of complex algorithm weighting for or against players (if it did then its doing a pretty poor job of it), it just feels that way because when they DO roll up a particularly toxic combination, it feels doubly unfair of being kicked by both the matchmaker and the game's AI.

 

Also Ziggy has a point - flight up. At worst, misery loves company. 

The mis-matched behavior is what makes me crazy.  The blue bots spend all game trying to take a mining plant.  The red bots use a coordinated GA/bomber pair that flips a plant in seconds.  

 

Work hard to take a military base, then lose it in seconds when your bots can't seem to be able to shoot anything down.

 

The red bomber flight makes it to their target unmolested,  while the blue bomber flight is harrassed by two MRF and a HF, and gets mostly shot down.  

 

I sometimes wonder exactly how the bots and their skill level is chosen for any particular battle.  Random?  Yeah, types are matched, but the skill levels are pretty random.  Sometimes, you get bots that seem to have a clue, and it's a ROFTLstomp.  Other times, it seems to take everything you've got to have any effect.  Especially if you have chosen a plane that can't hard carry.



Leadlooser #8 Posted 18 November 2019 - 02:02 PM

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High fellas –

 

Thanks for all the input.  I think my post may have come across as a whinge, but I meant it not to be such.  I just wanted to describe the circumstance that Spirit mentions above, “when [the MM, AI teammates, AA and ADA] DO roll up a particularly toxic combination, it feels doubly [or quadrupley(nw)] unfair.”  The ‘toxic combination’ is indeed necessary to keep game outcomes in doubt, (though less so for the better players, flights and clan members – but this is the way it should be, right)?

 

Both Zig and Spirit mentioned flighting and clanning-up.  They are parts of this game and are designed to boost the satisfaction of the players who use these elements.  However, when I flight-up, my UI freezes my controls, kicks me into the garage or makes my plane get stuck with jammed rudder that puts me into a perma-spin.  I also suffer from an unstable Internet connection and less than optimum hardware.  These are personal problems and have nothing to do with the game itself.  The blame for these shortcomings falls squarely on me. 

 

I DO feel responsibility to my teammates, and I really hate to let them down, so I suspect this would be amplified with the responsibilities requisite of clan membership.  I do miss out on the wisdom of the collective clan consciousness, yet I’m grateful to you for your comments in the forum, in game, post-game PMs, and from getting slapped out of the skies for my piloting errors.

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 November 2019 - 06:09 AM, said:

I sometimes wonder exactly how the bots and their skill level is chosen for any particular battle.  Random?  Yeah, types are matched, but the skill levels are pretty random.  Sometimes, you get bots that seem to have a clue, and it's a ROFTLstomp.  Other times, it seems to take everything you've got to have any effect.  Especially if you have chosen a plane that can't hard carry.

 

I agree with Corvus here, but I realize the game is flawed.  This particular flaw of the ‘stars aligning,’ or the converse 'train wreck,' is necessary.  We need the pain to balance the pleasure.  We need the worst pilots to have a chance from time to time and give the best pilots a real challenge as well occasionally.

 

Win rate is not important to me, but helping my team is.  It is odd though when the train wreck seems perpetual over a gaming session in which one scores reasonably well and loses consistently when trying to finish “The battle only counts if you win” missions.  I understand the rationale behind the requirement – to keep pilots contributing to the rest of the team instead of selfishly fulfilling their personal daily mission requirements to the detriment of that team.

 

In the end, I hope my post wasn’t read as a complaint, but rather a theory about why games swing so wildly independent of PPs.  After all it’s only a game, and if I didn’t enjoy it I’d stop playing.  Thanks to our predominately amicable community of pilots, I do like this game and I very much enjoy mixing it up with you.  Cheers, and see you in the skies solo but not irresponsible!

 

Regards



yyt_hero #9 Posted 18 November 2019 - 03:40 PM

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im sorry to comment off topic but I can not post a topic, when I go in to put in the topic it kicks me out I don't have no time to post topic or post what my question is. Can any one hslp me out . Like I said im sorry for posting this off topic but its the only way I can get this across. Thanks

Leadlooser #10 Posted 18 November 2019 - 04:03 PM

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Go to the "General Game Play Discussion."  "Important Information," and "Subtopics" will appear and to the bottom right of those will be a black "start new topic" button.

 

I hope this hslp(s) [SIC] you. GL



crzyhawk #11 Posted 18 November 2019 - 04:43 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 18 November 2019 - 12:32 AM, said:

I was talking to Rei about this after a particularly heartbreaking defeat that the game feels more unfair than it probably is because of the whole "bots lost the game for me" feel. Whereas if it had been a human player who scored that last clutch shot, it would have been more a case of "he got lucky/he played well/he made the right call", when you lose a game because of a bot (or bots) the outcome feels especially unjust because you were denied that win by a line of code that just happened to trigger at an inopportune time. There's no element of a game well played - it's just that the game literally decided to nope you at that exact moment.

 

The bots probably don't have any kind of complex algorithm weighting for or against players (if it did then its doing a pretty poor job of it), it just feels that way because when they DO roll up a particularly toxic combination, it feels doubly unfair of being kicked by both the matchmaker and the game's AI.

 

Also Ziggy has a point - flight up. At worst, misery loves company. 


From another perspective, the bots make me less salty.  In ships, I struggle to manage my expectations of human players.  In this game, when the bots act dumb it just is what it is.  It bothers me MUCH less than humans who should know better just suck starting the leaf blower.  As much as old timers drone on and on about Human only PvP mode, I'm not interested.  I don't want to be continually mad at players worse than me stinking up the joint, and I don't want to have players better than me mad about /me/ stinking up the joint.


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Trauglodyte #12 Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:10 PM

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This is an interesting discussion.

 

First, I'd like to admit that I didn't realize that there were bots, in the game, until like 50 games in.  I kept seeing this mentioned, on the forum, but thought that it was just people slinging mud at other bad players but referring to them, as bots.  After all, why would one bot talk to another?  Why would a bot tell me that my kung fu was stronger than his?  Anyway, it was embarrassing to realize that, in single human player games, I was asking for help, in chat, only to get nothing but invisible crickets.

 

To the point, I don't think that the bot AI is rigged.  Rather, I think that it is a combination of plane type and AI.  Furthermore, I do think that there is an issue with how the bot AI prioritizes and works, with players.  Case in point, pressing the F3 button ("calling for support") ALWAYS results in a Multi-Role Fighter responding unless all MRFs are played by humans, in which case this reverts to a Light Fighter.  So, when I'm in a bomber/GAA and I need bomber/GAA help, my only option is to follow the bot bomber/GAA, otherwise I'm getting nothing.

 

The bot AI further complicates things when the AI sends a heavy blood hound all the way across the map after a bomber player, at the back end of the battle.

 

Then, there is the problem when you've got two GAA going after a node, by themselves, and the cap never gets flipped, until you go all of the way across the map to help.  I don't understand why this occurs but it is never an issue caused by enemy interaction.  For whatever reason, they'll get it to half and then get stuck on stupid.

 

At the end of the day, I'd rather have every plane be a human.  But, I think that, as long as bots exist, the AI could be tweaked to be more supportive.  I also think that team controlled base defense aircraft should interact with control commands, like the bots - if I'm defending a node and am asking for assistance on a target, all friendlies should at least go through the decision tree to help!



Captain_Underpants53 #13 Posted 19 November 2019 - 03:09 PM

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View PostTrauglodyte, on 19 November 2019 - 09:10 AM, said:

This is an interesting discussion.

 

First, I'd like to admit that I didn't realize that there were bots, in the game, until like 50 games in.  I kept seeing this mentioned, on the forum, but thought that it was just people slinging mud at other bad players but referring to them, as bots.  After all, why would one bot talk to another?  Why would a bot tell me that my kung fu was stronger than his?  Anyway, it was embarrassing to realize that, in single human player games, I was asking for help, in chat, only to get nothing but invisible crickets.

 

To the point, I don't think that the bot AI is rigged.  Rather, I think that it is a combination of plane type and AI.  Furthermore, I do think that there is an issue with how the bot AI prioritizes and works, with players.  Case in point, pressing the F3 button ("calling for support") ALWAYS results in a Multi-Role Fighter responding unless all MRFs are played by humans, in which case this reverts to a Light Fighter.  So, when I'm in a bomber/GAA and I need bomber/GAA help, my only option is to follow the bot bomber/GAA, otherwise I'm getting nothing.

 

The bot AI further complicates things when the AI sends a heavy blood hound all the way across the map after a bomber player, at the back end of the battle.

 

Then, there is the problem when you've got two GAA going after a node, by themselves, and the cap never gets flipped, until you go all of the way across the map to help.  I don't understand why this occurs but it is never an issue caused by enemy interaction.  For whatever reason, they'll get it to half and then get stuck on stupid.

 

At the end of the day, I'd rather have every plane be a human.  But, I think that, as long as bots exist, the AI could be tweaked to be more supportive.  I also think that team controlled base defense aircraft should interact with control commands, like the bots - if I'm defending a node and am asking for assistance on a target, all friendlies should at least go through the decision tree to help!


I quit asking for support when I am going after a Mining Plant.  I get a LF every time.  And that cute little bot heavy trick of streaking across the map and one shot killing me at the exact second the storm front hits is really getting old.  It happens way too frequently.


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Trauglodyte #14 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:04 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 19 November 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:


I quit asking for support when I am going after a Mining Plant.  I get a LF every time.  And that cute little bot heavy trick of streaking across the map and one shot killing me at the exact second the storm front hits is really getting old.  It happens way too frequently.

 

It is exactly why I'm hanging up the mid-late tier Bombers.  If it is going to take a 10+ skill crew, to get anywhere close to being able to adequately defend myself, there is no reason to nuke my win rate and, most importantly, fun level.



Captain_Underpants53 #15 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:44 PM

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Some bombers do a pretty adequate job of defending themselves.  The A 26B, the B-17G. the B-32. and the RB-17 come to mind.

 

:great:


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Trauglodyte #16 Posted 19 November 2019 - 06:58 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 19 November 2019 - 05:44 PM, said:

Some bombers do a pretty adequate job of defending themselves.  The A 26B, the B-17G. the B-32. and the RB-17 come to mind.

 

:great:

 

He 111 H-2 isn't bad, for its tier.  But, jeez, that Do 217 M just makes me cringe.  A single 7.92 and a 13 mm isn't enough to do jack squat (and Jack left town).






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