37 replies to this topic

[Commodore_Sailracer]

I've read the various old posts on here and other forums and watched Youtube videos that on the whole conclude mouse/keyboard players have an advantage over joystick (or gamepad) players.  I'm curious if that holds up in scores.  For those on this forum that consider yourselves an excellent or top notch player, do you use a keyboard/mouse or Joystick?  Edit to add- if you placed in the top 5 in Mastery of any of the Fall Campaigns, I consider that excellent.

 

I am not a top notch player, and may never be one, but I also will not give up flying with a joystick if that is what it takes.  I tried with a mouse for awhile and did not like it.  A HOTAS is much more fun to fly, but I couldn't tell how much harder it was to land shots with it.  I do know that when I go head on with a similar plane (human piloted) at similar health I end up dead about 75% of the time while they survive, so I suspect they have an aim advantage.

 

Also, if any joystick players are interested, I have gone through an Logitech Extreme 3D, Saitek X-52 pro Hotas and now an Thrustmaster T16000m FCS HOTAS in the past few months and could write up a review post.

Edited by ebp_si, 15 November 2019 - 12:53 PM.

[SkyWolf__WM]

I'm not that good. Use a joystick. 

[GonerNL]

I doubt that in headons the mouse users have an advantage ... 

But when you're on someone's six the joystick user is at a disadvantage because he loses sight of his prey (only forward view), while mouse player gets aa up&forward view and still sees the moves of the enemy plane.

Now playing with T.16000 after wrecking 3 Extreme 3D's.

Edited by GonerNL, 14 November 2019 - 01:57 PM.

[Commodore_Sailracer]

GonerNL, on 14 November 2019 - 08:56 AM, said:

 

But when you're on someone's six the joystick user is at a disadvantage because he loses sight of his prey (only forward view), while mouse player gets aa up&forward view and still sees the moves of the enemy plane.

I map snap to target to a button on the joystick and hit it occasionally in a turn fight to keep an eye on what the target is doing.  it's not ideal, but better than nothing.

[HANNIBAL_LECTER_1]

I prefer joystick, I don't think one device is better than the other, joystick always worked well for me. 

 

ebp_si, on 14 November 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

I map snap to target to a button on the joystick and hit it occasionally in a turn fight to keep an eye on what the target is doing.  it's not ideal, but better than nothing.

 

Yes, exactly. I use "snap to target" and the Hat switch to look around too. You can see how it works here. This was a practice run that I made for some friends 

 

[Captain_Rownd]

 

Been rocking the joystick since the Atari 2600 came out, baybee.  I only gotta see what is about to feel the pain. 

[White_Widow18]

Mouse/Keyboard. Been rocking that combination since Wolfenstein 3D in first person shooters. Always found joysticks to be horrifically inaccurate at landing shots on any FPS that doesn't have some -serious- aim assist to it.

[cobra_marksman]

Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas 4 Flight Stick

This is the premo of all joysticks for it price which goes for between $45 to $65.

This stick comes with 4 axis, w/ 2 possible throttle controls, 4 buttons on stick, 5 buttons on throttle, & 2 on base. - ( total 11 buttons )

Having 5 buttons on throttle assy,  put you in better control of aircraft secondary controls & allows you split controls between stick & throttle.

Throttle & stick are connected together, ( better control of stick ) but can be separated and mounted 18" apart.

Probably one of the best joystick for comfort & control, 2nd to none.

For the cost of this joystick, you won't find a better buy.

[SkyWolf__WM]

cobra_marksman, on 14 November 2019 - 04:10 PM, said:

Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas 4 Flight Stick

This is the premo of all joysticks for it price which goes for between $45 to $65.

This stick comes with 4 axis, w/ 2 possible throttle controls, 4 buttons on stick, 5 buttons on throttle, & 2 on base. - ( total 11 buttons )

Having 5 buttons on throttle assy,  put you in better control of aircraft secondary controls & allows you split controls between stick & throttle.

Throttle & stick are connected together, ( better control of stick ) but can be separated and mounted 18" apart.

Probably one of the best joystick for comfort & control, 2nd to none.

For the cost of this joystick, you won't find a better buy.

 

I don't have room on my desk for a HOTAS so I'm on my 4th 3d Extreme stick. I used to have a gaming chair with a CH Products Combat stick and throttle on each arm and a set of rudder pedals.

Also had on a TrackIR for viewing. I was flying much more complicated Sims and games. Air Warrior, Aces High, Warbirds. My wife would kill me if I dropped that kind of money now. 

[Commodore_Sailracer]

cobra_marksman, on 14 November 2019 - 04:10 PM, said:

Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas 4 Flight Stick

This is the premo of all joysticks for it price which goes for between $45 to $65.

This stick comes with 4 axis, w/ 2 possible throttle controls, 4 buttons on stick, 5 buttons on throttle, & 2 on base. - ( total 11 buttons )

Having 5 buttons on throttle assy,  put you in better control of aircraft secondary controls & allows you split controls between stick & throttle.

Throttle & stick are connected together, ( better control of stick ) but can be separated and mounted 18" apart.

Probably one of the best joystick for comfort & control, 2nd to none.

For the cost of this joystick, you won't find a better buy.

 

Based on the deterioration of the pots in my Extreme 3D pro over time, I wanted a hall-effect based stick.  I was reasonably pleased with the performance of the Saitek X52 Pro, but it wasn't perfect.  Ultimately the spring that keeps the yaw axes centered broke.  Luckily I was only ~80 days into the 90 day return window Amazon offers for refurbished products so I could get my money back.  It also had a lot of wear issues- plastic would wear off where the spring plate rubbed on it and accumulate on the base.  The ergonomics were excellent and it had enough buttons and hat switches to do everything I needed.  I used the pinkie trigger on the joystick as a shift button to load alternate functions onto most buttons.  The software wasn't great, and the display on the throttle was useless.  It was supposed to display the key functions you type into the software, but it never did that for me.  The stick also has a selector for configurations, so I had one setup for most planes and a separate setup for bombers/attack aircraft that moved some of the roll and rudder keyboard controls to a hat switch that I could use when in turret mode to jink around a little bit.  The LEDs on it are cool too- you can change the color for individual buttons and adjust brightness.

 

I've only been using the T16000M Stick and Throttle a few days now.  The ergonomics on the throttle aren't anywhere near as good as the Saitek.  Many of the buttons and switches are placed awkwardly to reach.  The stick itself has nice movement, but suffers from a lack of buttons compared to the Saitek.  Use of a shift key or two is imperative.  Somehow the awkwardness of the shift key on the throttle compared to the pinkie button on the Saitek has led me to a number of accidental bomb drops.  I need to get my muscle memory better trained for this new setup.  The stick seems a bit sensitive around center- I probably need to play with the settings to tune that better.  The Thrustmaster TARGET software seems very powerful, though it wasn't obvious how to use it.  I had to consult the manual!  It is also going to be a little hard to mount to my "cockpit".  The Saitek allowed for bolts to go all the way through the base, so I could use whatever I wanted.  The Thrustmaster requires specific bolts to thread into holes on the bottom.  I haven't checked if I have anything that will fit laying around.

[WildAnge11us]

Keyboard/mouse gives NO benefit over joystick. The aim point when flying is the same. How you move your plane and where you lead your target to land hits is the same. Regardless of the device used, the aim point and lead needed to land hits does not change because the movement of the plane is the same. some people may have their mouse speed and sensitivity turned up for tighter movements but that can also be done with any decent joystick where you adjust it to tighten up the movement area and sensitivity of the joystick through use of the software provided with most decent joysticks. I have seen and felt no difference (once a joystick was installed and I set it's adjustment up with the software provided) in either control type. I do have to replace my joystick though since it fell off the desk and broke (my fault on that one) so I have been using keyboard/mouse for now.
Hope the answer helps you.

[WildAnge11us]

cobra_marksman, on 14 November 2019 - 09:10 PM, said:

Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas 4 Flight Stick

This is the premo of all joysticks for it price which goes for between $45 to $65.

This stick comes with 4 axis, w/ 2 possible throttle controls, 4 buttons on stick, 5 buttons on throttle, & 2 on base. - ( total 11 buttons )

Having 5 buttons on throttle assy,  put you in better control of aircraft secondary controls & allows you split controls between stick & throttle.

Throttle & stick are connected together, ( better control of stick ) but can be separated and mounted 18" apart.

Probably one of the best joystick for comfort & control, 2nd to none.

For the cost of this joystick, you won't find a better buy.

What is the exact name of that joystick for PC please? I was looking that one up and they list 3 or 4 different models when I copy pasted the name you gave in your post. some are windows some are ps4 some xbox some say pc. youre post with it's information was good and I want to look up that stick and order one.

[Commodore_Sailracer]

WildAnge11us, on 15 November 2019 - 02:24 PM, said:

Keyboard/mouse gives NO benefit over joystick.
Hope the answer helps you.

Thanks for the feedback.  It's another datapoint.  What I'd really like to know is if there are any joystick pilots finishing in the top 5 Mastery categories of the Fall campaign (or similar events that track points rather than wins)  Or if it is the other way around and no M/K pilots are doing well.  The data should be able to point to whether there is an advantage to one over the other.

[White_Widow18]

Mouse offers some advantages, not least of which is camera control. Then there's the fact the game's primary selling point is that it's designed around a mouse/keyboard and they've always supported them -way- better than Joysticks. The JS bug fiasco of last year comes to mind. I've always assumed they were roughly equal with actually shoving the reticules around the screen, with the natural advantage of mouse movement precision because the muscles involved in moving the mouse being the only real upshot of difference there. You'll find some people think a joystick is a magic device that makes it all real and has amazing and magical properties that make the plane perform better, but truthfully to my understanding.. most of the best/better players rock mouse/keyboard. (kinda hoping some top echelon JS players pop up and correct me on that last bit. The rest is pretty well agreed on through many conversations and screaming matches. JS users tend to look down on m/kb users as well)

 

Edited by Stygian_Alchemist, 15 November 2019 - 08:09 PM.

[hoom]

Block Quote

 if you placed in the top 5 in Mastery of any of the Fall Campaigns, I consider that excellent.

 

I am not a top notch player, and may never be one

 Exqueeze you...

blindfoId, on 16 November 2019 - 12:08 AM, said:

5

ebp_si

27650

 

 

Mouse/Keyboard here.

 

I did find my old joystick relatively recently & gave it a go for a few battles, loss of situational awareness is massive & you actually have to do stuff to bring your plane on-target.

 

With the mouse you just move your mouse cursor to where you want the lead to be, auto-pilot manoeuvres the plane until the boresight indicator is where the mouse is, it means a massive situational awareness improvement since you're nearly always essentially on Snap to Target & you have a lot less things to deal with to get guns on target.

You can hold right & free look without turning or often just flick the mouse round for a quick look without much impact.

 

The Keyboard isn't really used much.

If I mapped Boost to one of my mouse thumb-buttons I could play not too far below same level without the keyboard, I do a bit of pre-roll & brakes but I don't think it makes a huge impact overall, nor gun-turret mode in most planes.

 

[Commodore_Sailracer]

hoom, on 15 November 2019 - 04:06 PM, said:

 Exqueeze you...

 

 

 

 

That was in perseverance, not mastery.  I apparently excel at sitting on my [clan name here]

Edited by ebp_si, 15 November 2019 - 09:22 PM.

[hoom]

Oh lol, I used to have really good reading comprehension...

 

 

[cobra_marksman]

WildAnge11us, on 15 November 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:

What is the exact name of that joystick for PC please? I was looking that one up and they list 3 or 4 different models when I copy pasted the name you gave in your post. some are windows some are ps4 some xbox some say pc. youre post with it's information was good and I want to look up that stick and order one.

That joystick has a switch for either playstation or PC. 

With a flick of a switch it can do either, I left that out  as to not confuse players.

Going back to original post, I left out 1 outstanding control on that Joystick. 

It has dual throttle controls on axis 4.  Now this may not sound like a big deal, but it really is.

You can lock the fwd & aft throttle control, and use the slider ( located on the front of throttle ) to control your speed.

Setting 100% throttle speed at middle of slider gives you full speed control .." 0 to full boost " with 2 finger.

Your thumb and index finger are " now ".. next to 5 control buttons, which are next to that slider.

Now my fire button ( for guns ), is set on fwd button on that throttle.

Right hand is controlling flight of plane, left hand is controlling guns and all secondary controls of the plane.

Separating the gun firing button from the joystick allows a smooth & accurate time on  Air & Ground target .

The 4 other buttons( on throttle ) are with- in thumb reach, and are … set up for flaps - speed brakes - sniper mode -  marking selected targets.

When this joystick is set up correctly ( to your selected choice ) is really a good joystick to fly with.

 

Edited by cobra_marksman, 15 November 2019 - 11:43 PM.

[CorvusCorvax]

WildAnge11us, on 15 November 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

Keyboard/mouse gives NO benefit over joystick. 

Wrong.

 

You can see your current target better with the mouse.

 

In a cartoon game, with cartoon physics, M/K works just the same as a joystick, except you can see better in the direction of pitch.

[Captain_Rownd]

cobra_marksman, on 15 November 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

The 4 other buttons( on throttle ) are with- in thumb reach, and are … set up for flaps - speed brakes - sniper mode -  marking selected targets.

 

 

"speed brakes" are something i only just learned about and haven't been able to try yet.  What is "sniper mode"?  (got a portable bush to hide in, lol?)  and what is "marking selected targets"?