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Is MM now forbidding certain human combinations from going mano-a-mano? (criteria unknown)

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vcharng #1 Posted 01 November 2019 - 09:08 AM

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Well basically I just got this (it seems that the forum disallows picture link from imgur?)

https://imgur.com/KScpcSb

 

Two human, both Tier IV, but on the same side against full bot team.

(P.S. I know it's pointless to black myself out, lol)

 

I have 3K battles, the other human has 7K, so it's not about new player protection.

 

So we have two (or maybe more) possibilities:

1. I am Specialized, he isn't, the MM forbids 1v1 battle when one is specialized and the other isn't.

2. I am flying a HF, he is flying a bombers, MM forbids certain combinations like HF vs. bomber where one aircraft is the direct hard-counter against the other. (For reference, yesterday I encountered a Ki-84 in my Me 265, so LF vs. GAA seems to not fit the criteria, if this is the case)

 

Does anyone (preferably from a dev or mod) knows how this works?



hoom #2 Posted 01 November 2019 - 09:17 AM

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I've seen that a couple of times first battle after server reset.

 

To get imgur to paste inline remove the s at end of https://


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SpiritFoxMY #3 Posted 01 November 2019 - 09:19 AM

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I'm pretty sure there's nothing forbidden given the kind of impossible combinations that show up (Yes, I'm looking at the Spec Vampire, Spec BVP203 vs unspec La11, RB17 matchup).

 

The most plausible answer to me is if the game populates a 2v2 matchup but one member of the opposing team drops. MM will then force drop the solo player (because you cannot be in a 2v1 anymore) who will then be punted into his own bot match and the 2 man will face all bots as well.

 

The fact it happens more often at times of low pop would then be an artefact of the low pop since the mm cannot find a substitute in time. 


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losttwo #4 Posted 01 November 2019 - 09:35 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 01 November 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure there's nothing forbidden given the kind of impossible combinations that show up (Yes, I'm looking at the Spec Vampire, Spec BVP203 vs unspec La11, RB17 matchup).

 

The most plausible answer to me is if the game populates a 2v2 matchup but one member of the opposing team drops. MM will then force drop the solo player (because you cannot be in a 2v1 anymore) who will then be punted into his own bot match and the 2 man will face all bots as well.

 

The fact it happens more often at times of low pop would then be an artefact of the low pop since the mm cannot find a substitute in time. 

 

I concur.

My own experience with MM is similar.

Several low population battles can be multiple humans versus all bots.

Never have ( not yet ) have I been solo versus multiple humans.

Not that it matters I can beat 3 humans flighted just as easily solo.

 



Stygian_Alchemist #5 Posted 01 November 2019 - 10:09 AM

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I've, several times, ended up in 2v1 matches. 

I've also been in a 5v0 match which was just.. weird.

So I'm actually not certain how or why it happens. SFMY's idea tracks with how I know MM works in Ships (except since there's no bots it handles the situation differnetly, but you can see it go "oh" when someone drops from the queue they were assigned to)... but it doesn't explain the 2v1 matches I've had or the (several dozen) 3v0 or the one 5v0 that I have ended up in... and that was only a week or two ago?



losttwo #6 Posted 01 November 2019 - 11:41 AM

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and if you cant win vs all bot match then you are playing the game wrong by using wrong tactics

vcharng #7 Posted 01 November 2019 - 11:47 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 01 November 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure there's nothing forbidden given the kind of impossible combinations that show up (Yes, I'm looking at the Spec Vampire, Spec BVP203 vs unspec La11, RB17 matchup).

 

The most plausible answer to me is if the game populates a 2v2 matchup but one member of the opposing team drops. MM will then force drop the solo player (because you cannot be in a 2v1 anymore) who will then be punted into his own bot match and the 2 man will face all bots as well.

 

The fact it happens more often at times of low pop would then be an artefact of the low pop since the mm cannot find a substitute in time. 

Drops? as in, exit queue in the last second? or disconnect?



vcharng #8 Posted 01 November 2019 - 11:49 AM

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View Postlosttwo, on 01 November 2019 - 11:41 AM, said:

and if you cant win vs all bot match then you are playing the game wrong by using wrong tactics

Nah, in high tiers there are some cases where your bots are seriously underperforming.... (They are not weaker in terms of AI design, just end up performing poorly for who-knows-why)

I had a match where all my bots capped nothing at all (crashing into the first cap, shooting down nothing, you name it), and we got steamrolled pretty quick...

 

I mean yeah, most of the time all bot games are easy wins, but there are exceptions.



ebp_si #9 Posted 01 November 2019 - 12:00 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 01 November 2019 - 06:49 AM, said:

Nah, in high tiers there are some cases where your bots are seriously underperforming.... (They are not weaker in terms of AI design, just end up performing poorly for who-knows-why)

I had a match where all my bots capped nothing at all (crashing into the first cap, shooting down nothing, you name it), and we got steamrolled pretty quick...

 

I mean yeah, most of the time all bot games are easy wins, but there are exceptions.

 

It seems to me that if I am watching on radar, all the blue bots do is fly around and never shoot anything down or drop any bombs.  If I actually enter the cap where I can see them, they start trying and attacking the enemy.  It's like I'm the boss and the employees just screw around if you aren't watching them every second :D



vcharng #10 Posted 01 November 2019 - 12:10 PM

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View Postebp_si, on 01 November 2019 - 12:00 PM, said:

 

It seems to me that if I am watching on radar, all the blue bots do is fly around and never shoot anything down or drop any bombs.  If I actually enter the cap where I can see them, they start trying and attacking the enemy.  It's like I'm the boss and the employees just screw around if you aren't watching them every second :D

It's not impossible. Many video games would prioritize resources on areas close to the player(s), which may or may not affect AI performance.



CorvusCorvax #11 Posted 01 November 2019 - 01:11 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 01 November 2019 - 11:41 AM, said:

and if you cant win vs all bot match then you are playing the game wrong by using wrong tactics

Since I know how to play, and understand winning and target priority, maybe you can help explain something..

 

Last night, flying my F2H in an all-bot match.  I was flying the plane rocket-equipped, so I had some speed loss vs. running clean.  Plateau, two plants, two airbases and a garrison.  I accompanied my bomber and GAA to the nearest plant to help get that guy going.

 

*Before I even got there*, the red team had already captured both their plant and airbase.  OK, I was about equidistant from the nearest plant or airbase.  How in the heck could the red team not only get there faster than my F2H, which is pretty fast @ T9, AND capture two sectors before I even get to one?  What tactic could I have used?  This is a serious question.

 

I had to seriously break my tail this battle to win, and even then the score was 800-768.  I used rockets and boost juice like I bought them in bulk.  Akamatsu, Winged Legend, Hero of the Sky, 16 kills, and only a couple of those "wasted" outside cap areas.  But at one point, the bots held both plants and an airbase, while the blue team had the garrison and was working on the other airbase.  When I helped out guys get the plant, the red team flipped ours before we even got the bonus.

If I had been flying anything less fast, or less capable, it would have been a loss.  The only choice I truly made that was able to win that battle was the plane I chose before I got in.  But the after-battle stats told a story - I had three bots that had sub-2K PP scores.  The red team had nobody below 3200 PP.  Earlier this week, I chose to fly a bomber and was in a ROFTLstomp loss that saw me headhunted by two bot HFs the entire battle.  I think I got a whole 6k PP, spending over the half the battle turning circles trying to not get shot down carrying a full load of bombs.  Getting shot down after you've flipped a sector?  OK, and sometimes good.  But while you're carrying a full load?  BAD.

 

Sometimes, the choices you make in selection of a plane before the battle starts determines whether you win or lose.



Captain_Underpants53 #12 Posted 01 November 2019 - 01:56 PM

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It's all (mostly) in the RNG.  I think RNG affects the MM a lot.
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SpiritFoxMY #13 Posted 01 November 2019 - 02:06 PM

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View PostStygian_Alchemist, on 01 November 2019 - 06:09 PM, said:

I've, several times, ended up in 2v1 matches. 

I've also been in a 5v0 match which was just.. weird.

So I'm actually not certain how or why it happens. SFMY's idea tracks with how I know MM works in Ships (except since there's no bots it handles the situation differnetly, but you can see it go "oh" when someone drops from the queue they were assigned to)... but it doesn't explain the 2v1 matches I've had or the (several dozen) 3v0 or the one 5v0 that I have ended up in... and that was only a week or two ago?

 

You shouldn't have 2v1 matches anymore - those have not been a thing since before patch 2.0.5 and the possibility of that was the focus of two separate patches (because the first one failed to resolve the issue). More likely you had a player whose name is not immediately obvious and whose performance was so unremarkable as to not be obvious. I know I've missed people before and not realized that I had additional players until I was back in the hangar. And the matchmaker can't account for people who fail to connect or ragequit. 

 

View Postvcharng, on 01 November 2019 - 07:47 PM, said:

Drops? as in, exit queue in the last second? or disconnect?

 

Exit the queue. The game doesn't account for disconnects, hence occasional "ghost battles"

 

View Postebp_si, on 01 November 2019 - 08:00 PM, said:

 

It seems to me that if I am watching on radar, all the blue bots do is fly around and never shoot anything down or drop any bombs.  If I actually enter the cap where I can see them, they start trying and attacking the enemy.  It's like I'm the boss and the employees just screw around if you aren't watching them every second :D

 

Depends on the tier. Again, this is something that was covered in an old patchnote but bot AI scales with period, so period I bots are straight up brain dead and anything they accomplish is through sheer luck and ignorance. Period II bots are considerably nastier and can contain a handful of "terminators" whose' sole purpose is to make life a living hell for human players. Period III is when crapgets real and you get crazy Ace level bots that can solo carry games if you fail to take them out. 

 

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 01 November 2019 - 09:11 PM, said:

Sometimes, the choices you make in selection of a plane before the battle starts determines whether you win or lose.

 

And sometimes...

 


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 01 November 2019 - 02:11 PM.

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Trauglodyte #14 Posted 01 November 2019 - 02:54 PM

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Captain_Underpants53 #15 Posted 01 November 2019 - 03:58 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 01 November 2019 - 06:41 AM, said:

and if you cant win vs all bot match then you are playing the game wrong by using wrong tactics


Or possibly your lemming bots are falling to the red ace bots?


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Marraskuu #16 Posted 01 November 2019 - 04:09 PM

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Not that it matters I can beat 3 humans flighted just as easily solo.

 

 

There's a Greek word for this. Starts with "H" ends in "s". :sceptic:


 
 
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LMG #17 Posted 01 November 2019 - 05:34 PM

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According to what we've been told, the Matchmaker has a limited set of rules when setting up matches. I believe the last patch to modify it (I forgot which one it was), it was made so the matchmaker tries to not set 1v1 or 2v1 matches, and instead runs a PvE battle where one team has humans and the other has entirely bots. This also includes single players being tossed in a battle with only bot allies and bot enemies. That said, it's not impossible for the matchmaker to break its own rules :sceptic:


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Captain_Underpants53 #18 Posted 01 November 2019 - 05:43 PM

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View PostBuffaloTime, on 01 November 2019 - 11:09 AM, said:

 

There's a Greek word for this. Starts with "H" ends in "s". :sceptic:


:medal:   I believe the word is Hagis. Love them entrails.


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Captain_Underpants53 #19 Posted 01 November 2019 - 05:45 PM

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View PostLMG, on 01 November 2019 - 12:34 PM, said:

According to what we've been told, the Matchmaker has a limited set of rules when setting up matches. I believe the last patch to modify it (I forgot which one it was), it was made so the matchmaker tries to not set 1v1 or 2v1 matches, and instead runs a PvE battle where one team has humans and the other has entirely bots. This also includes single players being tossed in a battle with only bot allies and bot enemies. That said, it's not impossible for the matchmaker to break its own rules :sceptic:

Yes, it does seem to on occasion.  I know in the last couple of months I have had two or three battles where it's just me against a flighted pair.


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Stygian_Alchemist #20 Posted 01 November 2019 - 07:34 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 01 November 2019 - 08:06 AM, said:

 

You shouldn't have 2v1 matches anymore - those have not been a thing since before patch 2.0.5 and the possibility of that was the focus of two separate patches (because the first one failed to resolve the issue). More likely you had a player whose name is not immediately obvious and whose performance was so unremarkable as to not be obvious. I know I've missed people before and not realized that I had additional players until I was back in the hangar. And the matchmaker can't account for people who fail to connect or ragequit. 

 

No. Just.. No. 

 

Sorry, but no.

 

I'm not the only one to get 2v1 matches in recent memory and when you right click on the names it's easy to discern which is which. Try that sometime.

 

Myself, with and without flight partners, I've had 2v1 matches at least a couple times per week. Seems to mostly happen late night or early morning and one side or the other is always a flight.

 

Also, I realize it was supposedly fixed with a patch.. Two even. But there's plenty of other claimed to be fixed stuff that isn't or thst was later broken again via other means. 


Edited by Stygian_Alchemist, 01 November 2019 - 07:39 PM.






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