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Is Shinden really that bad?

J7W Japan Multirole

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hoom #61 Posted 10 February 2020 - 08:06 AM

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Necro time!

 

First things first:

PLEASE DO NOT RESTART THE UPTIER/DOWNTIER ARGUMENT

I'm here to talk J7W.

 

Is it me or did the patch fix bot J7W behaviour somewhat?

As I posted upthread I typically found them flying high & slow -> not much of a threat.

 

But lately they've been really frustrating enemies in a lot of battles & I think its that they now fly lower -> quicker & able to bring guns to bear.

I'm guessing they had a target priority change, de-prioritising Heavies/Bombers that were drawing them high.

 


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vcharng #62 Posted 10 February 2020 - 10:17 AM

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View Posthoom, on 10 February 2020 - 08:06 AM, said:

Necro time!

 

First things first:

PLEASE DO NOT RESTART THE UPTIER/DOWNTIER ARGUMENT

I'm here to talk J7W.

 

Is it me or did the patch fix bot J7W behaviour somewhat?

As I posted upthread I typically found them flying high & slow -> not much of a threat.

 

But lately they've been really frustrating enemies in a lot of battles & I think its that they now fly lower -> quicker & able to bring guns to bear.

I'm guessing they had a target priority change, de-prioritising Heavies/Bombers that were drawing them high.

 

Didn't really feel much for that.

As for the tier thing, I found that "uptiering" was THE official term actually used by the devs. (found it months ago in a MM thread, on a Wargaming official article.)

So that's that, nothing else to say.



SpiritFoxMY #63 Posted 10 February 2020 - 11:02 AM

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Haven't noticed a change. They seem just as irritating as ever.

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vcharng #64 Posted 10 February 2020 - 11:52 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 10 February 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

Haven't noticed a change. They seem just as irritating as ever.

Depends on what you're flying, too.

Heavy fighters, no problem, bombers, no problem (because Shindens can't get up to your altitude)

But for GAAs and some not-so-turny light fighters, yeah, pain in the [edited].



Vann_the_Red #65 Posted 10 February 2020 - 01:26 PM

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I'm late to the discussion, but here's my $0.02:

1)  Why do we need mix tiered matches in a game populated in majority by bots?

2)  I love the J7W1.  I love the J7W2 even more.  I'm close to the J7W3 now and I've got some nascent gamer wood already.

 

VtR



Captain_Underpants53 #66 Posted 10 February 2020 - 02:01 PM

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I think the explanation for mixed tier matches is that it greatly increases the odds of having more people in a match.   For instance. a Tier VI match can draw from V, VI, or VII.  It does lead to some very strange battles at times when flights are in the mix.
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CorvusCorvax #67 Posted 10 February 2020 - 02:07 PM

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View Posthoom, on 10 February 2020 - 08:06 AM, said:

 

PLEASE DO NOT RESTART THE UPTIER/DOWNTIER ARGUMENT

 

View Postvcharng, on 10 February 2020 - 10:17 AM, said:

 

As for the tier thing,

 

LOL, just LOL.



hoom #68 Posted 10 February 2020 - 06:43 PM

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Block Quote

 But for GAAs and some not-so-turny light fighters, yeah, pain in the [edited].

 Yes its these types I've been flying in that tier & I've really been hurting from them.

Every battle in T9 German GA in particular seems to have 2* J7W bots constantly on my [edited]& my tailgunner seemingly doing nothing to remove them :angry:


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CorvusCorvax #69 Posted 10 February 2020 - 09:00 PM

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View Posthoom, on 10 February 2020 - 06:43 PM, said:

 Yes its these types I've been flying in that tier & I've really been hurting from them.

Every battle in T9 German GA in particular seems to have 2* J7W bots constantly on my [edited]& my tailgunner seemingly doing nothing to remove them :angry:

The tailgunner nerf really hurts.  I remember when flying against a human IL-20, I really had to work hard to keep out of the arc of the gun.  Even bots had insta-crit power to both engines and pilots.

 

And that's against a non-turny HF, never mind a nimble Japanese MRF.  [shakes fist]



SpiritFoxMY #70 Posted 11 February 2020 - 01:10 AM

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The gunner nerf hurt everyone except the class that it was intended - bombers, because you can slap equipment onto bombers to compensate. You can't do that to any other class. 

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_Panzerkunst_ #71 Posted 11 February 2020 - 04:50 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 10 February 2020 - 05:10 PM, said:

The gunner nerf hurt everyone except the class that it was intended - bombers, because you can slap equipment onto bombers to compensate. You can't do that to any other class. 

When did that nerf happen? Did I miss something?


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SpiritFoxMY #72 Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:23 AM

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View Post_Panzerkunst_, on 11 February 2020 - 12:50 PM, said:

When did that nerf happen? Did I miss something?

 

More than a year ago, now. About two months after the US bomber line was introduced. The nerf basically halved the effective range of all gunners so that they would only do about 10% of their full damage at max range and getting steadily higher until the target was about half the max range of a gunner at which point they would do full dps.

 

The problem is that with Advanced Gunner Sights and the three point Gunner skill that adds 20% effective range, a Spec bomber can get his guns back to its old pre-nerf range. But GAAs, Heavy Fighters and the odd Multirole all lack that crucial gunner equipment slot so at best they can bump their effective range up by 20% of the pre nerf range. 


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SpiritFoxMY #73 Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:26 AM

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And yes that means the insanity that are the German and Russian tier 9 and 10 bombers are POST NERF gunners.

 

At least Rei no longer farms Gabreskis in B-32s


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hoom #74 Posted 11 February 2020 - 06:04 AM

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Well the problem I tend to have is my tailgunner blazes away and does bubkis.

My P.1099 B2 tailgunner has 168dps, it should kill a full-health (600hp) J7W3 in a bit over 3.5seconds of firing but it doesn't.

 

Probably that max dps is on manually controlled & fully aimed tailgun & I dunno how quickly that falls off for partially/un-aimed or auto-firing but certainly enemy bot tailgunners start hurting me pretty hard from first hit or two while mine seem to do nearly nothing unless I go manual & fly straight long enough for the tailgunner to fully aim, at which point I either nearly immediately die from the damage taken waiting on aimtime or the bot turns away out of range/angle.


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SpiritFoxMY #75 Posted 11 February 2020 - 06:16 AM

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View Posthoom, on 11 February 2020 - 02:04 PM, said:

Well the problem I tend to have is my tailgunner blazes away and does bubkis.

My P.1099 B2 tailgunner has 168dps, it should kill a full-health (600hp) J7W3 in a bit over 3.5seconds of firing but it doesn't.

 

Probably that max dps is on manually controlled & fully aimed tailgun & I dunno how quickly that falls off for partially/un-aimed or auto-firing but certainly enemy bot tailgunners start hurting me pretty hard from first hit or two while mine seem to do nearly nothing unless I go manual & fly straight long enough for the tailgunner to fully aim, at which point I either nearly immediately die from the damage taken waiting on aimtime or the bot turns away out of range/angle.

 

This is the issue with bot gunners - they effectively have two players in the plane: one manually firing the gun and getting up to full dps and one actually flying the plane. Also bot gunners don't seem to be affected by burst length which determines how long a manual gunner can fire without having to reaim.

 

Tl;Dr, bot gunners effectively cheat and are far more lethal than a human gunner even if fully upgraded because they have full control of their plane while gunnering and don't suffer from burst limitations 


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GonerNL #76 Posted 11 February 2020 - 09:28 AM

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That would explain why I get killed way more often by bot-gunners (even at low tiers with pathetic guns) than humans ...

 

I wonder if someone from WG could comment on this ? Yet another big advantage for bots ; they also seem to know when we fire rockets, which way we evade their "collisions", defy the laws of gravity, laser guided 45mm etc etc ...

 


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SpiritFoxMY #77 Posted 11 February 2020 - 09:49 AM

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View PostGonerNL, on 11 February 2020 - 05:28 PM, said:

That would explain why I get killed way more often by bot-gunners (even at low tiers with pathetic guns) than humans ...

 

I wonder if someone from WG could comment on this ? Yet another big advantage for bots ; they also seem to know when we fire rockets, which way we evade their "collisions", defy the laws of gravity, laser guided 45mm etc etc ...

 

 

There's actually an official post explaining this a good while ago. Basically bot gunners go to full DPS after about 3 seconds of firing, contingent on range of course since they're still governed by the effects of the overall gunner nerf. Essentially it's the same effect as a manual gunner zeroing in. It's just that the bot gunners effectively have 10 skill points - Armorer for longer burst, Ballistics Expert for longer range, Precision Gunner for more crits and rear gun stabilisation for faster aiming (essentially zero for bots) between bursts. 

 


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vcharng #78 Posted 15 February 2020 - 06:52 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 11 February 2020 - 09:49 AM, said:

 

There's actually an official post explaining this a good while ago. Basically bot gunners go to full DPS after about 3 seconds of firing, contingent on range of course since they're still governed by the effects of the overall gunner nerf. Essentially it's the same effect as a manual gunner zeroing in. It's just that the bot gunners effectively have 10 skill points - Armorer for longer burst, Ballistics Expert for longer range, Precision Gunner for more crits and rear gun stabilisation for faster aiming (essentially zero for bots) between bursts. 

 

Well if official post saying uptier doesn't stop some people from insisting "downtier" (who evidently talks back every time I mentioned this. I'm not bringing an argument I'm stating the fact that this is the official term, it's the other party arguing.), perhaps we don't have to look at the claim THAT seriously.

There are lots of things that should happen but didn't. Like "Karma" in MM (claimed to be once existent, probably never did), and there are this.

 

From my experience, dealing with a bot's tail gun is close to dealing with a player's automatic tail gun, and very different from a manual one, so... a bot's TG = 10 skill human TG? I really doubt it.

It's more like "only shoot at a TG'd plane when either you are in the right plane, have the right angle, the target has few HP left, or a mixture of the above".

Don't park your Zero on the six of a Me 265 and expect to be served with personal points, you'll only be served with lead, a broken engine, and often a dead pilot.

 

As for Shindens... The reason why they are PITA for GAAs are:

1. They can't fly high, so don't expect them to be distracted by high-flying allies.

2. 30mm of Japanese brick throwing, balanced by poor accuracy which isn't a thing when the target is something as big as a GAA.

3. The poor standing of MRs in current meta discourages them to fight almost all LFs and most HFs, so aside from other MRs, they will naturally try to hunt GAAs.(for bombers, check 1)

4. The good agility (is it the most agile MR in its range?) means even a bot may escape your TG with relative ease.

 

Actually as a GAA pilot I'd be cautious about any MRF. They are usually packed with better firepower, bigger HP pool and those are usually enough to chew you out like a sandwich.

I did serve a Tornado on my aerial refuel position with lead in my 265, but that's mostly because he's one tier below me.

Which, along with other reasons, is why I've expressed worries about GAAs losing playability without a PVE mode.

Basically Japanese Army LFs, all MRFs and all HFs are your hard counter. How is that supposed to be playable?

 

As for... coming back to the topic of Shinden...

I don't really find any problem of the J7W1 aside from the problem that virtually troubles every MRF, as in, the balance for MRF is wrong to begin with.

WG thinks MR would be somewhere between GAA and fighter, but the reality is it's neither. Its air combat capability barely exceeds the level of self defense and hunting non-aerial combatants, and its ground pounding capability is negligible.



CorvusCorvax #79 Posted 15 February 2020 - 07:32 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 15 February 2020 - 06:52 AM, said:

 uptier doesn't stop some people from insisting "downtier" (


You're the only one with their tail in a twist over it.  You should really get over it, because NOBODY CARES except you.  So just shut up about it already.

 

Seriously, the only person "talking back" is you.  Literally.



Captain_Underpants53 #80 Posted 15 February 2020 - 11:43 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 15 February 2020 - 01:52 AM, said:

Well if official post saying uptier doesn't stop some people from insisting "downtier" (who evidently talks back every time I mentioned this. I'm not bringing an argument I'm stating the fact that this is the official term, it's the other party arguing.), perhaps we don't have to look at the claim THAT seriously.

There are lots of things that should happen but didn't. Like "Karma" in MM (claimed to be once existent, probably never did), and there are this.

 

From my experience, dealing with a bot's tail gun is close to dealing with a player's automatic tail gun, and very different from a manual one, so... a bot's TG = 10 skill human TG? I really doubt it.

It's more like "only shoot at a TG'd plane when either you are in the right plane, have the right angle, the target has few HP left, or a mixture of the above".

Don't park your Zero on the six of a Me 265 and expect to be served with personal points, you'll only be served with lead, a broken engine, and often a dead pilot.

 

As for Shindens... The reason why they are PITA for GAAs are:

1. They can't fly high, so don't expect them to be distracted by high-flying allies.

2. 30mm of Japanese brick throwing, balanced by poor accuracy which isn't a thing when the target is something as big as a GAA.

3. The poor standing of MRs in current meta discourages them to fight almost all LFs and most HFs, so aside from other MRs, they will naturally try to hunt GAAs.(for bombers, check 1)

4. The good agility (is it the most agile MR in its range?) means even a bot may escape your TG with relative ease.

 

Actually as a GAA pilot I'd be cautious about any MRF. They are usually packed with better firepower, bigger HP pool and those are usually enough to chew you out like a sandwich.

I did serve a Tornado on my aerial refuel position with lead in my 265, but that's mostly because he's one tier below me.

Which, along with other reasons, is why I've expressed worries about GAAs losing playability without a PVE mode.

Basically Japanese Army LFs, all MRFs and all HFs are your hard counter. How is that supposed to be playable?

 

As for... coming back to the topic of Shinden...

I don't really find any problem of the J7W1 aside from the problem that virtually troubles every MRF, as in, the balance for MRF is wrong to begin with.

WG thinks MR would be somewhere between GAA and fighter, but the reality is it's neither. Its air combat capability barely exceeds the level of self defense and hunting non-aerial combatants, and its ground pounding capability is negligible.


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