Jump to content


Is Shinden really that bad?

J7W Japan Multirole

  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

hoom #21 Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:02 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 10164 battles
  • 2,008
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

Block Quote

 I stopped grinding my Tornado because the later UK MRs doesn't look too good.

 Can't speak for the Shindens yet other than they have scary firepower, bots often fly them slow + high & they have an annoying tendency to turn inside me -> have to extend a bit before turning to get a good shot.

 

I can talk for UK MRs:

Tornado is really nice, you share the same guns as Hurricane II, available stock, similar agility but a lot more speed.

Typhoon is harder, you need to have at least 18k Free XP prepared because stock you're slow and equipped with short range peashooter 0.303s.

12 of them put out reasonable aggregate dps sure but its really hard to get them in range & on target.

So you need to research the upgraded Airframe and the first lot of 20mms in order to get some firepower & neither set of guns is shared.

Probably best to add another 12k Free XP to get the first Engine too.

 

Non-Specialist you only have one Engine slot, no Airframe so you can boost either agility or speed.

Make sure you have the Engine Cooling consumable for that periodic Boost replenishment to help keep your speed up.

 

Tempest & Sea Hawk then have 20mms stock which makes them much more reasonable stock grinds.

While Typhoon is a bit of a backward step in agility from Tornado, Tempest is back to below 10s turn time.

 

Still kinda iffy about the Hunter, really want to like it but its pretty hard work so far.


C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

vcharng #22 Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:19 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3849 battles
  • 867
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View Posthoom, on 22 October 2019 - 08:02 AM, said:

 Can't speak for the Shindens yet other than they have scary firepower, bots often fly them slow + high & they have an annoying tendency to turn inside me -> have to extend a bit before turning to get a good shot.

 

I can talk for UK MRs:

Tornado is really nice, you share the same guns as Hurricane II, available stock, similar agility but a lot more speed.

Typhoon is harder, you need to have at least 18k Free XP prepared because stock you're slow and equipped with short range peashooter 0.303s.

12 of them put out reasonable aggregate dps sure but its really hard to get them in range & on target.

So you need to research the upgraded Airframe and the first lot of 20mms in order to get some firepower & neither set of guns is shared.

Probably best to add another 12k Free XP to get the first Engine too.

 

Non-Specialist you only have one Engine slot, no Airframe so you can boost either agility or speed.

Make sure you have the Engine Cooling consumable for that periodic Boost replenishment to help keep your speed up.

 

Tempest & Sea Hawk then have 20mms stock which makes them much more reasonable stock grinds.

While Typhoon is a bit of a backward step in agility from Tornado, Tempest is back to below 10s turn time.

 

Still kinda iffy about the Hunter, really want to like it but its pretty hard work so far.

Is Typhoon simply sucks at stock or does it suck all round?

I'm not really comfortable with it's turn rate, for example.



hoom #23 Posted 22 October 2019 - 09:03 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 10164 battles
  • 2,008
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

Once Specialised & once I learned the Boost Mixture Control + Engine Cooling combo its fine.

 

To get it Specialised I flew it clean with Lightweight Power Unit to get the turn to acceptable rate but I'm a bit weird like that.

I think I'd probably do something like start with Uprated Engine until Elite then switch to LPU to Specialise if I was doing it again.


C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

vcharng #24 Posted 22 October 2019 - 09:06 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3849 battles
  • 867
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View Posthoom, on 22 October 2019 - 09:03 AM, said:

Once Specialised & once I learned the Boost Mixture Control + Engine Cooling combo its fine.

 

To get it Specialised I flew it clean with Lightweight Power Unit to get the turn to acceptable rate but I'm a bit weird like that.

I think I'd probably do something like start with Uprated Engine until Elite then switch to LPU to Specialise if I was doing it again.

...okay... because... in theory I have the FE to skip all the way to tempest (and actually get a few upgrades)



hoom #25 Posted 22 October 2019 - 10:25 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 10164 battles
  • 2,008
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

I don't go in for that sort of thing.

Free XP some key modules yes, past the grind nope.

If you don't play a plane you may miss out on discovering you actually really like it.

 

And besides Free XP is best spent on helping accelerate Pilot training.

 

Edit: sometimes just the last few hundred XP of the grind.


Edited by hoom, 22 October 2019 - 10:39 AM.

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

vcharng #26 Posted 22 October 2019 - 11:23 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3849 battles
  • 867
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View Posthoom, on 22 October 2019 - 10:25 AM, said:

I don't go in for that sort of thing.

Free XP some key modules yes, past the grind nope.

If you don't play a plane you may miss out on discovering you actually really like it.

 

And besides Free XP is best spent on helping accelerate Pilot training.

 

Edit: sometimes just the last few hundred XP of the grind.

Well the problem is, what if I spent the FE on Typhoon on the non-progression parts, only to find I don't like it?

I can see from catalog stats that it is going to be subpar in the line (if I haven't mistaken the turn time is slower even after the upgrade, right?)

I see that it's less maneuverable than the Corsair on the same tier (same turning, less rolling) and is slightly slower, more fragile and less climbing.

I just don't see any advantage on it.....



Postal_Monkey #27 Posted 22 October 2019 - 02:39 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 5279 battles
  • 121
  • [FK] FK
  • Member since:
    09-03-2013

The question is: What is your MRF goal?

 

Are you looking for something that is balanced between Air and Ground abilities? The British MRFs and the USA Corsairs are great balanced machines. The Brits are a bit more turny and the Corrsairs a bit more ground attacky but these two lines are the most balanced in the MRF field. The Hunter at Tier X is well loved while the F7U is... not.

The Soviet MRFs and Japanese MRFs are more like Fighter hybrids. If they have any ground armament it's supplementary at best. The high Tier German MRFs are this way as well. All three Tier Xs from these lines are not seen on the battlefield very often, that should tell you something.

The USA Thunderbolt line and lower tier German MRFs (Fw 190s) are less maneuverable. They have less turn ability but make up for it with a more bombs/rockets (USA) or stronger guns (German).


 

Across the board, MRFs are not well represented in the Higher tiers and as such have a relatively low use rate. The lack of speed and altitude that you can live with below Tier VIII is even more noticeable Tier VIII and above.



vcharng #28 Posted 23 October 2019 - 01:43 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3849 battles
  • 867
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View PostPostal_Monkey, on 22 October 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

The question is: What is your MRF goal?

A MRF with some kind of ground attack capability while still retaining decent air combat capability (either by speed or by turning)

I find British MRs of tier 5 and 6, as well as some HFs fitting this criteria pretty well.



desert786 #29 Posted 23 October 2019 - 02:55 AM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 15176 battles
  • 143
  • [HVAR] HVAR
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Postvcharng, on 21 October 2019 - 10:24 PM, said:

Uh, I thought this applies to just about every MR...

 

Kinda? most other MR at tier 8 have pretty powerful engines, long boost time and high dive speed/acceleration. this means u can kinda BnZ a spit 14, plus each MR may have some other trick the plane can pull. With many of the other MR you can gain a advantage, with proper play, in some way or form. the J7 pretty much has to fight the spit on the spits terms most of the time. spit 14 is just the hard counter to J7 and it feels bad knowing you cannot do anything about it. pop big turn, nope, full turn build, nope crit a wing or tail, still nope. only hope is to get a engine crit when the spit is on low energy and the j7 has the energy advantage this lets u gain distance to turn around and blast it some more. very situational and RNG based.

 

if u do want to become J7 master just play the best one the W3. its is the best of the line stat wise and is competitive with many of the other LF's and MR's.



vcharng #30 Posted 23 October 2019 - 03:16 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3849 battles
  • 867
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View Postdesert786, on 23 October 2019 - 02:55 AM, said:

Kinda? most other MR at tier 8 have pretty powerful engines, long boost time and high dive speed/acceleration. this means u can kinda BnZ a spit 14, plus each MR may have some other trick the plane can pull. With many of the other MR you can gain a advantage, with proper play, in some way or form. the J7 pretty much has to fight the spit on the spits terms most of the time. spit 14 is just the hard counter to J7 and it feels bad knowing you cannot do anything about it. pop big turn, nope, full turn build, nope crit a wing or tail, still nope. only hope is to get a engine crit when the spit is on low energy and the j7 has the energy advantage this lets u gain distance to turn around and blast it some more. very situational and RNG based.

 

if u do want to become J7 master just play the best one the W3. its is the best of the line stat wise and is competitive with many of the other LF's and MR's.

Against a Spit maybe, but from my experience in F2G all non-jet T8 MRs are just not......fast enough. Remember there's also a Yak, who turns like a Spit and has a jet in T8.

That's why I am a bit pessimistic on finding a decent T8 MR.



SpiritFoxMY #31 Posted 23 October 2019 - 03:40 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 4888 battles
  • 2,738
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    12-31-2012

View Postvcharng, on 23 October 2019 - 11:16 AM, said:

Against a Spit maybe, but from my experience in F2G all non-jet T8 MRs are just not......fast enough. Remember there's also a Yak, who turns like a Spit and has a jet in T8.

That's why I am a bit pessimistic on finding a decent T8 MR.

 

Yak-15 isn't very fast, explodes if you look at it and, more importantly, only has 6s of boost. You can outlast him in a chase unless he pops cooling and even then you can still outlast him unless you started with zero boost to begin with.

 

In the F2G you just point your nose down and dive. You have a 900kph dive speed against his 820. So nose down, hit the boost and wait for him to either give up or fall behind far enough for you to turn around and vaporize him 


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 23 October 2019 - 03:43 AM.

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


losttwo #32 Posted 23 October 2019 - 03:49 PM

    which way do we go?

  • Community Ace
  • 5412 battles
  • 13,986
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    05-15-2012

And now for the the rest of the story:

No the Shinden is really not that bad.

The key is to learn how to fly it in a particular situation.

 Depending on the map depends on the strategy .

Start high work low, use your command keys.

You can actually win 100% of your matches in the plane.

The trick is to go for Captures in less populated sectors and take out the bombers from flanking maneuvers.

Ignore the red plane, except the low HP planes and have fun .

Remember that while you may suffer performance at high altitude., You dominate in low altitude.



vcharng #33 Posted 23 October 2019 - 04:25 PM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3849 battles
  • 867
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View Postlosttwo, on 23 October 2019 - 03:49 PM, said:

 

You can actually win 100% of your matches in the plane.

 

The highest WR in the whole US server is 89%.

So this is definitely impossible.

Flanking bombers in a Shinden? I have to reach their altitude first.



NovaTempest #34 Posted 24 October 2019 - 03:52 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 6395 battles
  • 366
  • [OWSS] OWSS
  • Member since:
    12-06-2013

View Postvcharng, on 23 October 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

The highest WR in the whole US server is 89%.

So this is definitely impossible.

Flanking bombers in a Shinden? I have to reach their altitude first.


Thats where looking at them and hitting F4 comes in. You'd be sometimes surprised how responsive bots will be to that command.

Also Desert did leave out some details on the whole "T8 spit is king, don't CENSORED with it." thing: Spit pilots (especially the not good ones) tend to get severe tunnel vision (Save for actually good pilots that get in a spit. So for instance if you were to run into Desert and he's flying a spit, best leave him be, though these cases are not that common). All you really have to do is get at them from an angle they are not looking at (AKA they are distracted as CENSORED by something else), close a good enough distance and then blam them.

I was once in a situation in the J7W1 where I got the jump on not one human T8 Spit, but Two flying in tandem, I managed to blow both of them out of the air within moments of one another.

All you have to do is be smart with your plane's positioning, when you strike at planes, be keen of your surroundings, and especially be smart with your cannons. Do that and you will do just fine in the J7W1 and the following shindens.

 


Edited by NovaTempest, 24 October 2019 - 03:53 PM.


pyantoryng #35 Posted 24 October 2019 - 06:33 PM

    Colonel

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2166 battles
  • 8,442
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

The W1 isn't exactly good at engine power...you need the W3 for that. You hardly feel like they're from the same family once you played all the way up.

 

...and of course, catching someone with their pants down is the best situation to be in in all cases, the Shinden performs better there due to high power yet relatively accurate gun (compared to the more derpier guns and platforms of much higher speed).



WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

Postal_Monkey #36 Posted 24 October 2019 - 06:49 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 5279 battles
  • 121
  • [FK] FK
  • Member since:
    09-03-2013

View Postvcharng, on 23 October 2019 - 01:43 AM, said:

A MRF with some kind of ground attack capability while still retaining decent air combat capability (either by speed or by turning)

I find British MRs of tier 5 and 6, as well as some HFs fitting this criteria pretty well.

Well the J7s are fine planes for their air-to-air capabilities but no one would call their ground armament anything better than 'meh'. Your guns will flip the zone, your bombs will supplement (maybe).

The Corsair line and Tempest line are probably the most balanced MRF lines in the game. The F2G is still one of my favorite planes in the game as I always feel like I can put it in a position to win the game. Granted, that means sometimes I have to avoid planes that can bash in my head, but both those lines are good at taking out distracted planes and rocketing/bombing the heck out of a sector.


 

MRF lines are typically the most mentally draining to play. Because at any given moment you have to change your tact. Sometimes you're acting like a boom and zoom. Sometimes your a GA that rolls into a turn and burn. In a MRF if you play as one style throughout a battle you are not playing to your full potential.



vcharng #37 Posted 25 October 2019 - 12:59 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3849 battles
  • 867
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View PostNovaTempest, on 24 October 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:



Also Desert did leave out some details on the whole "T8 spit is king, don't CENSORED with it." thing: Spit pilots (especially the not good ones) tend to get severe tunnel vision (Save for actually good pilots that get in a spit. So for instance if you were to run into Desert and he's flying a spit, best leave him be, though these cases are not that common). All you really have to do is get at them from an angle they are not looking at (AKA they are distracted as CENSORED by something else), close a good enough distance and then blam them.

 

I think this applies to most TnB planes... as they require constant aiming on target.

It is basically the only way I can counter Zeroes/ Spits in my Tornado.



hoom #38 Posted 25 October 2019 - 12:17 PM

    First Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 10164 battles
  • 2,008
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

Block Quote

 I can see from catalog stats that it is going to be subpar in the line (if I haven't mistaken the turn time is slower even after the upgrade, right?)

I see that it's less maneuverable than the Corsair on the same tier (same turning, less rolling) and is slightly slower, more fragile and less climbing.

 My F4U-4 is only Elite currently & yes it may well turn out better but here's some stats for my Specialised Typhoon:

Cruise: 489km/h

Boost: 745

Turn: 10.4

Roll: 115

(9pt pilot)

 

A big advantage is that the 20mms are closer grouped, higher dps, longer range & have significantly longer burst time before overheating.


C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

CorvusCorvax #39 Posted 26 October 2019 - 04:54 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 4265 battles
  • 4,435
  • [OWSS] OWSS
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012
I love to fly the Typhoon, but it suffers when downtiered.  And T7 is where you get downtiered.

vcharng #40 Posted 26 October 2019 - 07:40 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3849 battles
  • 867
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 26 October 2019 - 04:54 AM, said:

I love to fly the Typhoon, but it suffers when downtiered. And T7 is where you get downtiered.

You mean uptiered...

Seriously can we all agree on the terms?

When a Tier Blah plane got into a Tier Blah plus one game, can we all agree this is called UPtier?







1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users