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Is Shinden really that bad?

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CorvusCorvax #41 Posted 27 October 2019 - 01:03 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 26 October 2019 - 07:40 AM, said:

You mean uptiered...

Seriously can we all agree on the terms?

When a Tier Blah plane got into a Tier Blah plus one game, can we all agree this is called UPtier?


No, I mean downtiered.  I did not get uptiered, I got downtiered.  IOW, I am the lower tier.  If I fly the Tempest, and it's a T8/T7 match, I got uptiered.  Your way doesn't make any sense at all.  If I am flying T7, what part of T8/T7 match is "up" from my perspective?  I am in the lower tier, and therefore got downtiered in a two-tier battle.

 

Now, having said that, T7 is where folks often find themselves in the LOWER tier of a T8/T7 matchup.  VERY rarely is there such a thing as a T7/T6 battle.


Edited by CorvusCorvax, 27 October 2019 - 01:04 AM.


vcharng #42 Posted 27 October 2019 - 02:03 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 27 October 2019 - 01:03 AM, said:


No, I mean downtiered.  I did not get uptiered, I got downtiered.  IOW, I am the lower tier.  If I fly the Tempest, and it's a T8/T7 match, I got uptiered.  Your way doesn't make any sense at all.  If I am flying T7, what part of T8/T7 match is "up" from my perspective?  I am in the lower tier, and therefore got downtiered in a two-tier battle.

 

Now, having said that, T7 is where folks often find themselves in the LOWER tier of a T8/T7 matchup.  VERY rarely is there such a thing as a T7/T6 battle.

That's how most people are calling it.

You are a T7, you get to a match one tier HIGHER, you are UP tiered.

 

I'm fine with either way, just unify it.

 

I do normally get some T7/T6 games in my Ki-93/ Me 265.... otherwise I wouldn't have kept them. They don't really do well in T8, especially the 93.



Captain_Underpants53 #43 Posted 27 October 2019 - 06:42 AM

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I always look at it from the perspective of me being the center of the Universe.  If I am in a lower tiered plane, I am down tiered.
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vcharng #44 Posted 27 October 2019 - 07:13 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 27 October 2019 - 06:42 AM, said:

I always look at it from the perspective of me being the center of the Universe.  If I am in a lower tiered plane, I am down tiered.

If it's really "me being center" that should be up tiered....

I am put into a battle tier higher than me, UP tier.

 

Edit: as a reference, "uptier" returns 12 results (11 excluding this one)

"downtier" returns 8.

Since people don't usually talk about being on the higher tier of the game, these terms should mean the same thing.

Which means a tier N being put into a tier N+1 game is more often known as "uptier".


Edited by vcharng, 27 October 2019 - 10:07 AM.


Captain_Underpants53 #45 Posted 27 October 2019 - 01:28 PM

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If that works for you, OK.  I will continue to use my perspective.
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CorvusCorvax #46 Posted 27 October 2019 - 04:01 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 27 October 2019 - 07:13 AM, said:

If it's really "me being center" that should be up tiered....

I am put into a battle tier higher than me, UP tier.

 

Edit: as a reference, "uptier" returns 12 results (11 excluding this one)

"downtier" returns 8.

Since people don't usually talk about being on the higher tier of the game, these terms should mean the same thing.

Which means a tier N being put into a tier N+1 game is more often known as "uptier".


It returns those results because people argue for it the wrong way, causing extraneous posts.  I don't know why you find it difficult to understand.  People talk about it from the player perspective, not from the battle perspective.  I have no idea, and still can't figure out, how in a split-tier match, someone in the lower-numbered tier is anything like "up" or "upper".  They are in the lower, or "down" tier of this particular battle.  In addition, we have been using the word as a verb - "downtiered" is the action that happened.

 

Like everything matchmaker, even the terms describing it can be contentious.



vcharng #47 Posted 28 October 2019 - 12:24 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 27 October 2019 - 04:01 PM, said:


People talk about it from the player perspective, not from the battle perspective.  I have no idea, and still can't figure out, how in a split-tier match, someone in the lower-numbered tier is anything like "up" or "upper".  

These two sentences are self-contradicting, you know?

 

If it's really from the player perspective, a player taken to a battle one tier higher than their own tier is UP tiered.

By saying "in the lower tier (of the battle)" you're using the battle perspective.



Booze_Morgan #48 Posted 28 October 2019 - 12:27 AM

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I hope we can get this standardized.  "I have been uptiered" to means I am the lower tier because MM uptiered me, something was done TO me  Then I think about it ... "I have been down tiered" means MM put me in the lower tier.  

 

 


Spoiler

 


CorvusCorvax #49 Posted 28 October 2019 - 01:02 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 28 October 2019 - 12:24 AM, said:

These two sentences are self-contradicting, you know?

 

If it's really from the player perspective, a player taken to a battle one tier higher than their own tier is UP tiered.

By saying "in the lower tier (of the battle)" you're using the battle perspective.

Nope.  The player is in a LOWER tier plane, and was downtiered.  Lower, down.  These two words go together.  Some other planes are uptier from you.  Not down.  Up.  Higher than.  Above.  No matter how many times you reiterate nonsense  it's still nonsense.  It does not become sensical upon repetition.   You can call the desert wet all you want, it will not change the definition of the term.



vcharng #50 Posted 28 October 2019 - 08:24 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 28 October 2019 - 01:02 AM, said:

Nope.  The player is in a LOWER tier plane, and was downtiered.

The player is in a lower tier plane RELATIVE TO THE MATCH.

There's your fallacy, you state you're using the player's perspective but you're not.

 

The player is fighting a match HIGHER TIER THAN HIS OWN TIER, UP TIER.

That's what I call "the player's perspective.

 

Edit: ah I see the problem here.

you said "PEOPLE are using the players perspective", not you.

 

Well then it's easy, we should.

 

We usually say "I am" uptiered. The subject of the sentence is indeed the player.

So it is only natural that we say uptier, because the whole damn sentence is rotating around the subject, i.e. the player.


Edited by vcharng, 28 October 2019 - 08:38 AM.


Captain_Underpants53 #51 Posted 28 October 2019 - 08:53 AM

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Well, you win.  You are right, as usual.  And I am wrong as usual.  In fact, I strongly suspect that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is usually wrong and you are always usually right.  Great job.    :rolleyes:
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vcharng #52 Posted 28 October 2019 - 08:58 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 28 October 2019 - 08:53 AM, said:

Well, you win.  You are right, as usual.  And I am wrong as usual.  In fact, I strongly suspect that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is usually wrong and you are always usually right.  Great job.    :rolleyes:

Well I was indeed persuaded that J7W1 was indeed worse than I thought, in terms of this thread.

And that's why I'm flying P.1056 instead of J7W1 right now.



Moonrider #53 Posted 28 October 2019 - 11:00 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 27 October 2019 - 02:13 AM, said:

 "uptier"

View PostBooze_Morgan, on 27 October 2019 - 07:27 PM, said:

" down tiered" 

 

 

View Postvcharng, on 27 October 2019 - 02:13 AM, said:

up tiered....

 

 

 

>sigh<


Slap a mask on a drunk and you're going to have trouble. It's like having a live reenactment of anonymous forum comments.


CorvusCorvax #54 Posted 28 October 2019 - 07:25 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 28 October 2019 - 08:24 AM, said:

The player is in a lower tier plane RELATIVE TO THE MATCH.

Of course.  So, they were downtiered.  Lower, down.  You know, two words that imply the same thing.  It's pretty simple.  

 

Your opinion on the subject is noted.  The match is a split tier match  and the player is in the lower tier.  Down from the top tier in the battle.  Below.  Under.  Smaller.  The only thing up is the other players/bots.  Not the player in the lower tier.

 

Your fallacy is that you are going against the common definitions of words.  The smaller number will never be up of the bigger number, never.  Insisting otherwise will just make people look at you funny.  

 

I suspect your way of describing this will never gain traction.  But go ahead and keep at it.

 



desert786 #55 Posted 28 October 2019 - 09:47 PM

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View PostNovaTempest, on 24 October 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:


Thats where looking at them and hitting F4 comes in. You'd be sometimes surprised how responsive bots will be to that command.

Also Desert did leave out some details on the whole "T8 spit is king, don't CENSORED with it." thing: Spit pilots (especially the not good ones) tend to get severe tunnel vision (Save for actually good pilots that get in a spit. So for instance if you were to run into Desert and he's flying a spit, best leave him be, though these cases are not that common). All you really have to do is get at them from an angle they are not looking at (AKA they are distracted as CENSORED by something else), close a good enough distance and then blam them.

I was once in a situation in the J7W1 where I got the jump on not one human T8 Spit, but Two flying in tandem, I managed to blow both of them out of the air within moments of one another.

All you have to do is be smart with your plane's positioning, when you strike at planes, be keen of your surroundings, and especially be smart with your cannons. Do that and you will do just fine in the J7W1 and the following shindens.

 


i am having a difficult time understanding what you are trying to say here.

 

basing an argument of what i like to call "this one time i did this thing" is not a sound way of proving a point. i base my opinion on the hard in-game statistic's as well as person experience from the many battles i have played. I guess it also helps that i have access to all the national equipment and high skill point pilots. another thing, i always assume that the enemy can perform to the best of their planes ability rather that the average players ability. you can get the jump on any plane in the game, thats just how aerial combat works. you can say that any plane is good if you get the jump on something, but that is not always the case. F4 is not 100% reliable either, i would rather rely on my own skill than the randomness of calling targets.

 

my point is the J7W1 struggles against one of the most commonly flown tier 8 LF's, one that is extremely strong and easy to fly. this makes it a far more difficult plane to be confident in your ability to handle any situation you put yourself in. the W3 is most evenly match and is the "best" plane in the line. It is on a far more even playing field than the W1.

 

I am never in a Spit 14 because i dont enjoy the plane. i specialized it, took off all the equipment and retrained the pilot to another plane.

 

 



vcharng #56 Posted 29 October 2019 - 12:56 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 28 October 2019 - 07:25 PM, said:

The match is a split tier match  and the player is in the lower tier

 

I never see people talk about uptiering in such a way

They always say "I am uptiered." That's why I said this "up/downtier" thing is always about the player and not about the match.

 

Think about it, does this sentence make sense to you?

"I am flying a T6, and I am downtiered into a T7 game".

 

Pretty sure it doesn't. Like you said, up, higher, down, lower, they work together. This is known as collocation.

So in the end what dictates the usage of up/downtier depends on how you describe the matter.

 

I can agree on usages like "I am put in the lower tier of the match", but this only applies if people actually say this.

Yet they don't, they say "I'm uptiered into a higher tier match".

 

Let's take a look at your original sentence:

 

"I love to fly the Typhoon, but it suffers when downtiered. And T7 is where you get downtiered."

 

I would see the sentence like this:

"I love to fly the Typhoon, but it suffers when downtiered (into a T8 game). And T7 is where you get downtiered (into a T8 game)." (Sentence A)

And that's why "uptier" would make more sense.

 

Perhaps you see it like this:

"I love to fly the Typhoon, but it suffers when downtiered (in a T8 game). And T7 is where you get downtiered (in a T8 game)." (Sentence B)

And that's the case where "downtier" would make more sense.

 

In other words, the verb to "up/downtier" is described differently in the two sentences.

In A, "up/downtiering" happens when you are being MMed. You are in the queue, and as a T7 you got uptiered into a T8 game.

In B, it happens when you already are in the match. You already are in the T8 game, and you got downtiered into the lower tier of the T8 game because you are a T7.

 

That's why I am more inclined toward the usage of Sentence A, the concept is just closer to what we are doing in WOWP.

 

 

Side note: In my home language, we call it "fighting upwards/downwards" in WOT.


Edited by vcharng, 29 October 2019 - 01:08 AM.


CorvusCorvax #57 Posted 29 October 2019 - 01:52 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 29 October 2019 - 12:56 AM, said:

"I love to fly the Typhoon, but it suffers when downtiered (into a T8 game). And T7 is where you get downtiered (into a T8 game)." (Sentence A)

And that's why "uptier" would make more sense.

 

Perhaps you see it like this:

"I love to fly the Typhoon, but it suffers when downtiered (in a T8 game). And T7 is where you get downtiered (in a T8 game)." (Sentence B)

And that's the case where "downtier" would make more sense.

 

Nope  that still doesn't make sense.  Since I see that English is not your native language  I can see why you are having trouble with the concept.  English is a terrible mash-up of a bunch of different languages, and has mutated multiple times over the last 400 years into something almost completely foreign from its origins.

 

In no way is 7 up from 8.  7 is down from 8.  Lower.  Less than.  This is common English usage.  When you describe 7 as up from 8, it can only be in the context of some sort of race, in which the lower number is a better place.  Or in golf where the lower the score, the better.  But in this game, 8 is higher than, and up from, 7.  Not down.  7 is down from 8.  And when ther are tier 7 and tier 8 planes in a battle, nobody describes the T7 planes as "up".  Maybe it is a quirk of your native language that translates poorly to English.  The only way your construct makes sense is if you use uptier as an adverb; "I got sent uptier", rather than as a verb.  

 

I think that if you pay attention the how the term is used in the forums, you see many more people using it as a verb, and not as an adverb.



vcharng #58 Posted 29 October 2019 - 07:43 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 29 October 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

 

In no way is 7 up from 8.  7 is down from 8.  Lower.  Less than.  This is common English usage. 

 

Are you even reading?

I never said 7 is up from 8, god dammit.

 

UPtiered, FROM 7, TO, 8.

Uptiered, from a T7 plane, to a T8 game. (That's my logic)

 

For reference:

Downtiered, in a T8 game, to the lower tier of the game (i.e. T7) (That's yours).

 

This is beyond discussion now, I have already saw the problem and pointed it out, and I even gave you a convenient way to excuse yourself.

Yet you just refuse to see the reasons.

 

This is beyond the topic of this thread anyway, any further reply and I simply report.



vcharng #59 Posted 29 October 2019 - 10:51 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 29 October 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:


Yes, I am reading, and NO, your logic is counter to the actual meanings of words.  You are comparing two dissimilar things (game and plane) and while it might make sense in your native language, it doesn't make sense in English.  There is no problem, other than your use of a term counter intuitive to the actual meaning of one of the root terms.  Your reasoning sucks, and the fact that you have to explain it means that it's not an effective term.  I understand what you're saying, but I don't accept the term as reasonable or valid.

 

You go right on ahead and report the first person in this thread who went off-topic to talk about plane/tier terminology.  Maybe you should investigate who that off-topic person was, hmmm?

Judging from how you just caused another thread of mine to be locked due to you harassing another player, whether you accept or not doesn't really matter, at all.

 

I don't see any problem of "comparing two dissimilar things (game and plane)".

"Battle tier" is an official term in WG's games. And it is official that the tier of the game is named after the highest tier in the match.

 

And you still failed to tell me why I cannot call a T7 game being taken into a T8 game as "(the T7 plane/ player) being uptiered into a higher (T8) tier game"

You just keep repeating "this doesn't make sense" like a broken record. Which is why this is harassment.

 

At first this tiny notice of "downtier" versus uptier should end within one or two replies, such a level of off-topic is acceptable.

It only becomes unacceptable when you started to prolong the off-topic indefinitely.



CorvusCorvax #60 Posted 30 October 2019 - 12:50 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 29 October 2019 - 10:51 PM, said:

Judging from how you just caused another thread of mine to be locked due to you harassing another player, whether you accept or not doesn't really matter, at all.

 

 Which is why this is harassment.

 

At first this tiny notice of "downtier" versus uptier should end within one or two replies, such a level of off-topic is acceptable.

It only becomes unacceptable when you started to prolong the off-topic indefinitely.

Here's some news for you:  You're not the victim here.  You participated post-for-post.  In addition, YOU were the one who drug it off-topic.  You.  Not me.  Take some responsibility.  Newsflash number two:  You can repeat your idiotic logic forever, it still doesn't make sense.  Full stop.  If you want to use the term, knock yourself out.  Nobody gives a flying fornication at a rolling donut.  People only care when you pretend that your way is the only acceptable way (like you've done here.  Climb down, pal, you aren't that important).  The only one harassing anyone here is you - and you're the one who et it in motion.

Finally, I wasn't the one in the other thread who made it personal, so you're just plain wrong. Again.

 

If you wanted it to end, you would.  But you keep on harassing me, so if you don't like my replies, quit posting.  Easy.


Edited by CorvusCorvax, 30 October 2019 - 12:53 AM.






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