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Is Shinden really that bad?

J7W Japan Multirole

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vcharng #1 Posted 21 October 2019 - 06:23 AM

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I am now about one or two daily first wins away from being able to get either the Shinden (J7W1) or the Ki-94-II, but I really struggle to choose......

Due to the current situation in T9/T10 rooms I think I need a few new T8 planes, I have the pancake now, but it's not the best choice when you need to hit the ground.

So I'm looking for something more...... dual-purpose and that's why I didn't take Spit 14 (I have made it to attacker) and don't want to go Ki-94-II.

 

But it seems that the Shindens (the J7W family) is not really easy to use nor considered advantageous, so I want to ask more opinions before deciding.

I stopped grinding my Tornado because the later UK MRs doesn't look too good... does Shinden at least perform better than the T8 UK MRF? (I believe it's called Tempest?)

I also have experience in F2G which I really find difficult to use.



SpiritFoxMY #2 Posted 21 October 2019 - 06:37 AM

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The Tempest is probably the best tier 8 Multirole that's actually a Multirole, really. Haven't flown the Shinden but it's guns are generally a bit of a crap shoot and it's slower than the Tempest. I hear the tier 9 is pretty decent though and I'd let desert tell you about the tier X


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 21 October 2019 - 06:44 AM.

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vcharng #3 Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:00 AM

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Hmm... so it looks like I should go with Tornado, then...... If I want a good T8 MR

SpiritFoxMY #4 Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:21 AM

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If you want a good Multirole line in general, the UK line is the best with the only problem plane being the tier 9 Sea Hawk. The Japanese Shindens are decent area denial planes but suffer from poor speed and bombs that are basically an afterthought. Again, desert is the only person I know who actively plays them well.

 

The Tempest has bigger bombs, higher speed, more reliable firepower and similar maneuverability to the J7W1 so as long as you don't use the rockets, you're in the objectively better plane. 

 

If you want a tier 8 plane that is capable of ground attack, bomber interception and general air superiority, the Do-335 is actually your best option. Of course its a premium so you'd have to fork over cash for it.

 

The BVP210.02 is also a very good airplane and *technically* a Multirole. Unfortunately it's only technically a Multirole because of its class - it carries 24 R4M A2A rockets that are useless against ground targets


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vcharng #5 Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:29 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 21 October 2019 - 07:21 AM, said:

If you want a good Multirole line in general, the UK line is the best with the only problem plane being the tier 9 Sea Hawk. The Japanese Shindens are decent area denial planes but suffer from poor speed and bombs that are basically an afterthought. Again, desert is the only person I know who actively plays them well.

 

The Tempest has bigger bombs, higher speed, more reliable firepower and similar maneuverability to the J7W1 so as long as you don't use the rockets, you're in the objectively better plane. 

 

If you want a tier 8 plane that is capable of ground attack, bomber interception and general air superiority, the Do-335 is actually your best option. Of course its a premium so you'd have to fork over cash for it.

 

The BVP210.02 is also a very good airplane and *technically* a Multirole. Unfortunately it's only technically a Multirole because of its class - it carries 24 R4M A2A rockets that are useless against ground targets

Yeah I thought about FEing all the way to those BVs as well, but P.210 is as ground attack-able as a F-94D.

 

So it seems like the best pusher choice I have would be the P-55 (are we allowed to call it [edited]-ender? C'mon, it's even written on wikipedia.)

J4M doesn't seem to be people's favorite as well.


Edited by vcharng, 21 October 2019 - 07:34 AM.


Stygian_Alchemist #6 Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:33 AM

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Shinden. Good -burst- speed, but has trouble maintaining over long distances. The guns are... just goofy. It's like taking the guns off the XP-58, but better as far as I am concerned. Maneuver can be pushed to be quite good.. and yes.. the bombs are somewhat of just an afterthought.I have it (the t10 after pain-grinding through the T8 & somewhat enjoying the t9), working on specializing it. Won't call myself an expert on the plane.. or even good at it.. but boy it's fun to turn stuff to confetti with those guns.

Edited by Stygian_Alchemist, 21 October 2019 - 07:36 AM.


SpiritFoxMY #7 Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:47 AM

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J4M is pretty good but it forces a very strict playstyle. I've only flown it a couple of times and while it can hard carry, it's not a very flexible plane. It's also a tier 7 so there's always the risk you end up on the receiving end of a Horten/Vampire wedgie. 


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vcharng #8 Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:50 AM

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What about FEing to P.1056? It looks like a *more* decent British HF and it does come with a good air-to-ground package

 


Edited by vcharng, 21 October 2019 - 07:51 AM.


SpiritFoxMY #9 Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:54 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 21 October 2019 - 03:50 PM, said:

What about FEing to P.1056? It looks like a *more* decent British HF and it does come with a good air-to-ground package

 

 

It's a great plane, so long as you ditch the rockets and stick with the two 1000-pounders. I know I like it (though mine is getting retired soon to make room for the P. 228)


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vcharng #10 Posted 21 October 2019 - 08:07 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 21 October 2019 - 07:54 AM, said:

 

It's a great plane, so long as you ditch the rockets and stick with the two 1000-pounders. I know I like it (though mine is getting retired soon to make room for the P. 228)

Just like mosquito and Hornet whose rocket should never be carried?

 

Hmm... maybe I should simply put the bombs on my pancake back.
 

Edit: NVM, specialist status forbid you from carrying non-top ordnance, you can only choose to carry or to not carry.


Edited by vcharng, 21 October 2019 - 08:08 AM.


NovaTempest #11 Posted 21 October 2019 - 02:16 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 21 October 2019 - 06:23 AM, said:

I am now about one or two daily first wins away from being able to get either the Shinden (J7W1) or the Ki-94-II, but I really struggle to choose......

Due to the current situation in T9/T10 rooms I think I need a few new T8 planes, I have the pancake now, but it's not the best choice when you need to hit the ground.

So I'm looking for something more...... dual-purpose and that's why I didn't take Spit 14 (I have made it to attacker) and don't want to go Ki-94-II.

 

But it seems that the Shindens (the J7W family) is not really easy to use nor considered advantageous, so I want to ask more opinions before deciding.

I stopped grinding my Tornado because the later UK MRs doesn't look too good... does Shinden at least perform better than the T8 UK MRF? (I believe it's called Tempest?)

I also have experience in F2G which I really find difficult to use.


The J7W1 is slightly annoying unspecialized, in that it feels sluggish and with the 30mm guns, they have a slightly short range for T8 and can be a little derpy on accuracy, though they hit damn hard if all 4 shells in the burst connect, especially on anything that isn't a GA.

The J7W1 is considered a multi-role, but it is really a Light Fighter in disguise. The J7W's are pretty good at defending sectors, their shtick is deleting GA's however - as Stygian stated, the bombs they can mount are an Afterthought, so much so that I don't even bother mounting them. Stygian is also correct on the J7W's speed, they have a fairly good ability to go relatively fast for short periods of time, but they cannot go high speed for long periods.

Specialized the J7W1 can be actually surprisingly effective, in two recent runs on the plane I scored over 10K+ PP, yet felt like I had only farmed up 6K, and multiroles have been a class I feel have been - until as recently as around this time last year - mixed on in terms of how well I fly them, which aside from the 190s and thunderbolts is relatively decently. The other thing about the J7W's - particularly in the J7W1 based on my experience - is that the maneuverability rating is a bit of a soft lie. The J7W1 is actually a bit turnier than the game portrays because it can fly so slow without stalling, ergo it can actually out-turn or get the jump on various planes that should be able to out-turn it flat-out.

I recall an instance where I managed to keep a Bot Yak-15 (It could have been a human piloted Yak-15, i do not fully recall) from being able to chew my non-specialized J7W1 apart in a turning fight for what felt like around 45 seconds, and it got fairly tight, i had to use all the maneuvering tricks i knew at the time.

Long story short, if you like the idea of a low altitude, high burst damage interceptor, get the J7W1. I myself am at the J7W2 and its top guns are fantastic.

To give you a little further guidance, I have been building my J7W1 for full turn, full accuracy, with Long range barrels and Reinforced air frame thrown in. My plan has been to eventually acquire all three shindens and specialize all three of them. So far I am about halfway to that goal.

TL;DR : No, the Shinden is not bad, but it can be a little temperamental unspecialized and is isolated by the Game's Current Meta at times, especially on maps where bombers are key.


Edited by NovaTempest, 21 October 2019 - 02:27 PM.


pyantoryng #12 Posted 21 October 2019 - 02:27 PM

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The J7W is what you get when you cram Me 262 level of firepower into a turnfighter. Sadly, it got obsoleted by high tier bombers.

 

You won't find many planes with this combination of firepower and maneuverability though. The guns melt aerial targets very quickly and you can make sure you are killing them because you won't be zooming away for another pass.

 

Not unlike the USSR megaderp cannon line, the "multirole" fighter implies heavy gun rather than ordnance equipment...although I must say that they can ground pound with just their guns in a pinch. Light targets melt to the quad 30s and the slow speed lets it stay on target for just long enough if you need to.

 

I keep my J7W1 for the watermelon paint and J7W3 was my first tier 10...it paid off during the Westwall Invasion stages and the Shinden event, the former for its excellent ability to defend against streams of GAAs and the latter because hardly anybody play this family of planes.

 

They are by no mean meta, but they got some qualities going for them. Maybe if your Japanese pilot has nowhere else to go, then give it a try sometime, but remember to save some free EXP for at least the basic 30mm on the 'W1. Those are what give the J7Ws their identity.



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NovaTempest #13 Posted 21 October 2019 - 02:30 PM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 21 October 2019 - 02:27 PM, said:

The J7W is what you get when you cram Me 262 level of firepower into a turnfighter. Sadly, it got obsoleted by high tier bombers. I did mention about that last point in my post, I'll stress again that bombers can make the J7Ws as relevant as a saddle is to the car industry, especially on the various "big maps" with vast expanses of nothing in them.

 

You won't find many planes with this combination of firepower and maneuverability though. The guns melt aerial targets very quickly and you can make sure you are killing them because you won't be zooming away for another pass.

 

Not unlike the USSR megaderp cannon line, the "multirole" fighter implies heavy gun rather than ordnance equipment...although I must say that they can ground pound with just their guns in a pinch. Light targets melt to the quad 30s and the slow speed lets it stay on target for just long enough if you need to.

 

I keep my J7W1 for the watermelon paint and J7W3 was my first tier 10...it paid off during the Westwall Invasion stages and the Shinden event, the former for its excellent ability to defend against streams of GAAs and the latter because hardly anybody play this family of planes.

 

They are by no mean meta, but they got some qualities going for them. Maybe if your Japanese pilot has nowhere else to go, then give it a try sometime, but remember to save some free EXP for at least the basic 30mm on the 'W1. Those are what give the J7Ws their identity.

 

^ This too. Good Post Pyantoryng. :great:


Edited by NovaTempest, 21 October 2019 - 02:34 PM.


ebp_si #14 Posted 21 October 2019 - 03:08 PM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 21 October 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

 

They are by no mean meta, but they got some qualities going for them. Maybe if your Japanese pilot has nowhere else to go, then give it a try sometime, but remember to save some free EXP for at least the basic 30mm on the 'W1. Those are what give the J7Ws their identity.

 

+1 for this. 

 

I started the game by moving up the Zero line and love those planes.  I was pretty disappointed with the J7W1 when I got it, but it is my only tier 8 so I was forced to stick with it for tokens/daily missions.  It is definitely much harder to do well with than the lower tier planes.  It gets out-turned by lots of planes and is slower than most.  Getting it fully specialized and maxed out helped, but I still rarely dominate a match with it.  It does well at low altitudes and is very good at shredding GAA.  Its cannon takes on AA guns easily too.  I wiped out all the AA guns at a mining plant in 2 trips around it yesterday clearing the way for my team's bombers.  Which never came :(  

 

I was on a bad losing streak with it this weekend, so I finally spent the credits for the J7W2, moved my 8 point pilot to it and spent a few matches getting absolutely destroyed.  I decided to use up most of my free XP to get it to elite status and things got much better.  That 4x30mm type17 gun makes a big difference.  While I'm not dominating in it (yet?) it at least has a fighting chance against other Tier 9-10.  I am holding out hope that fully specialized it can do better than that.

 

Interestingly, after the pilot swap, I was having a good streak with the green pilot in the J7W1 and getting decent scores.  Maybe the MM decided I had lost enough.



Stygian_Alchemist #15 Posted 21 October 2019 - 03:13 PM

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I think if you bump the J7W3's energy -retention- up then the plane comes back into balance for T10 meta with the addition of G-suits now a thing. It's the bleed it has even in -level- flight that just... hurts -for me-... That or increase the boost regen when its not in use by a significant margin so I can burst speed more often.. *shrug* Just a thought on how the plane could be modified on WG's part to increase its efficacy without making her a complete game-breaker.

Also, I could be entirely wrong, I dunno.. but I have a G-suit crammed onto mine right now and bot bombers are quite get-attable... and players rarely fly as high as the bots even. It requires timing and basically lying in wait/holding onto boost.. but you -can- mash a bomber or three... and once you're up there you can be an area of denial platform.. a... sort of slow moving turret really, because of that insanely low stall. I know I've run afoul of that high altitude area of denial trick fighting Desert repeatedly and I've been trying to learn and utilize it myself because it -is- effective... and what few things can get up to you -once you're up- can't maintain the slow speed or the turn capacity you end up with (especially if you're good at nose down flop turning). Meaning.. timing is everything.. but you can really tear up the high altitude stuff -in a given area-. At least, this has been my experiment lately as I've found the top tier J7W2 and J7W3 guns don't necessarily need a real plus to aim once you work out the shot physics.

I also agree with Nova about the J7W1's guns being kinda.... difficult sometimes? But the upper end guns for the J7W2 and the guns on the J7W3 are a surprisingly accurate wall of lead... and truthfully there is nothing that sounds quite like the J7W1's top engine to me.. it's like an angry bumblebee on speed. Maybe its placebo but I swear it sounds different than the rest of the J7W1 engines.

Pyan is also correct about the front guns. Shooting ground targets -is- a field I excel in and I've used them for such on these planes. Because I'm quite good with using high-caliber forward guns for toasting off ground objects I've not experimented with it as much as I should and I've also been force-focusing on learning to properly fight in the J7s in air to air situations... as I keep uh.. mismanaging my speed and boost and dying in the most embarrassing of fashions. However, to be honest.. they are on par in the J7W2/J7W3 with either of the T10 GAAs in terms of their actual punch and the J7W1 is not really very far behind. Your overheat is -way- shorter so avoid the hardened targets when possible.. but you can fairly readily derp off anything that's damaged or stuff with tents.. assuming there are no "better" targets nearby (like a slow-moving IL-40P at a 90 degree from your flight path that just decided to turn into you and is about 2400 feet out...)

I wonder.. does Raptor Strike activate when shooting ground targets? I've never put it on a plane/pilot I shot ground targets with. If so... that might actually be quite useful for the J7 line to fulfill more of the ground-pound end of the MRF thing.... it's quite good at diving to my perspective?"

Editing to add: Now I am itching to get my J7W3 to specialist and give her a proper gearing :P 

Edited by Stygian_Alchemist, 21 October 2019 - 03:17 PM.


WhoaBlackBetty #16 Posted 21 October 2019 - 05:48 PM

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'Ight, Imma say something.  If you need mission points in something like defending airfields, the Shinden(s) are good for that.  The Tier 9 is the best at it, IMO.  If you just wanna fly around attacking ground attacks, they good for that too.  They good at killing AAs, also.

 

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vcharng #17 Posted 22 October 2019 - 12:32 AM

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OK so to recap:

1. Shinden's multirole-ness is mostly about its guns and less about its bombs.

2. Shinden is not exactly weak, but unstable.

3. Shinden, in extreme situations, can shoot ground targets as a secondary objective.

4. J7W2 and W3 are better than W1

 

pretty much these?



Stygian_Alchemist #18 Posted 22 October 2019 - 12:42 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 21 October 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

OK so to recap:

1. Shinden's multirole-ness is mostly about its guns and less about its bombs.

2. Shinden is not exactly weak, but unstable.

3. Shinden, in extreme situations, can shoot ground targets as a secondary objective.

4. J7W2 and W3 are better than W1

 

pretty much these?

Yea.. that about covers it when boiled down.



desert786 #19 Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:00 AM

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As the winner of the shinden event, or more importantly the insane person who spent 10+ hours playing the J7W3 pimped out to the max. yes the shinden is bad in WOWP.

 

 

slow, which means your cannot make its around the map, also cannot chase many things. the altitude is poor, which means you cannot chase many things. the plane is a bottom feeder you sit at low alt waiting for something to make a mistake and come to your ridiculous quad 30mm. that is the life of the Shinden, sucking dirt hoping for something to make a mistake.

 

the plane itself is not bad, the current state of the game just makes it sub optimal choice to win in.

 

now the j7w1, is trash. see spitfire 14. you literally have no counter to the spit 14. it can out turn J7 by 2 seconds, faster than J7, has a lower stall speed(so no fancy slow tricks) and is 80% wing hit box. that means you cant even win head on's in a plane with the second highest cumulative DMG at tier 8. also the guns on the j7 are very shot gunny accuracy is very poor, plus fast overheat. even when you get the jump on a more maneuverable plane, your ability to reliable kill is not very good.

 

the W3 has a easier time since it's A: better in every way B: the planes you fight are less maneuverable, which high shall. this means the W3 is on a much more even playing field when fighting pretty much everything but HFs or very fast MR or fighters. your main opponent is the yak 30, but since its hit box isn't 80% wing you can hit it and do dmg, WOW! balance! it also burns good and take massive amounts of crits. your not gonna out turn yak 30, but if you are aware of the yak you can fight yak 30 with some confidence. W3 still gets railed like by HF's and there is not much you can do against them. 

 

the bomber menace applies to all J7's you get to look up at your doom with little hope of changing your fate. unless the bomber messes up quite a bit.

 

as i said i spent a good amount of time in the J7W3, i dont think of it as the dumpster fire, i once did. It can be a competent aircraft is the right hands, but it is still a painful and difficult plane to play and excel in. In my opinion its weaknesses i.e speed and alt for outweigh its strengths. oddly i don't really regret my time in the J7 during the event. i did learn a lot about the plane and how to excel in to, but the plane just feels like a constant struggle. which can be enjoyable at times, but it just feels like needless stress.

 

invest your time in better aircraft. like HF's



vcharng #20 Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:24 AM

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View Postdesert786, on 22 October 2019 - 06:00 AM, said:

 

now the j7w1, is trash. see spitfire 14. you literally have no counter to the spit 14. it can out turn J7 by 2 seconds, faster than J7

Uh, I thought this applies to just about every MR...

 

But if the guy with 3rd best WR can't make a good thing out of the J7W1, then perhaps I shouldn't even try.







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