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The 38 is better than the 410.


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Nachthexen_Tribute #1 Posted 08 October 2019 - 08:55 PM

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Prove me wrong.

 

Nach


I use Nach instead of Nacht on purpose. And I pronounce it with the English "ch", like catch.

CorvusCorvax #2 Posted 08 October 2019 - 09:30 PM

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View PostNachthexen_Tribute, on 08 October 2019 - 08:55 PM, said:

Prove me wrong.

 

Nach

Prove?  Well, I love both, but the 38J fully specialized has that weaksauce 37mm cannon that only does good work in knife fight ranges.  The engines are very fragile, and when you get an engine crit, you are SLOW.  But the plane is bloody fast, no doubt.  The 410 is a better bomber and GA killer, due to very high alpha and better gun range.  The guns will just plain evaporate targets.  If there was ever a button HF, the 410 is it.  That, or the Pancake.  In any case, I hardly ever fly my 38J.  But I fly my 38F all the time.  The 38J needs a gun upgrade to make it the best T6 heavy.  Currently, the Ki-102 holds that honor.

 

Still, I fly the 410 most of any plane.  I like wrecking stuff.  :)



qu33kKC #3 Posted 08 October 2019 - 10:26 PM

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Not if BamaBlitz is in the 410.  dude be on Matrix time in that thing.  The 410 is ouchie both forwards and backwards, that's for certain. 

 

that all being said, I love my P-38s, and I really wish I could have the 20mms at Spec.



losttwo #4 Posted 08 October 2019 - 10:44 PM

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View PostNachthexen_Tribute, on 08 October 2019 - 03:55 PM, said:

Prove me wrong.

 

Nach


It's all about the player, prove me wrong



Stygian_Alchemist #5 Posted 08 October 2019 - 10:54 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 08 October 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:


It's all about the player, prove me wrong

That would seem to imply that.. on a level.. you consider at least the two of those planes balanced against one another?



hoom #6 Posted 08 October 2019 - 11:15 PM

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If only there was a P-38 variant with multiple 20mm it'd be amazing but I found the whole bit with really short range guns on a fast, un-agile plane a real chore.

But that was back before the Equipment rework, might be amazing with appropriate equipment now, I'm thinking of re-buying one in the upcoming US discount.

 

I've only recently got round to buying & specialising the Me 410, its definitely pretty awesome & more user-friendly.

 


C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

wylleEcoyote #7 Posted 09 October 2019 - 01:43 AM

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A 410 is as subtle as a mace to the face. And as brutal.  But Agile is not a word that associates with it. 

P-38 is a sword in your heart.

Both have the speed and power to get wherever you need to be (although p-38 is faster over time) whenever you need to be there.
However a 410 has to maintain speed to escape in the event that its first pass does not kill its target out right.

A lightning however has the ability to reach the target. Then slow down to match speeds. and still be agile enough to stay on the target's 6.
It can then Slay that target in short order. and has the acceleration to get back up to full speed almost instantly afterward. (and doesnt have to dive to do it)
It is so fast and agile that it does not need a turret gunner. (which makes it faster and more agile)



AND the P-38 can do all of that with a full Ordinance load-out slowing it down.

Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is much like my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
Usually I start on the right track and then a make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 
And yet it doesn't stop me from speculation.

Specialist Planes I have from : USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Europe
Light Fighters:  XP-31, Model 81A-1, P-40, P-51A, P-39N-1, XF15C, DH.100 F1, Fw 56, He 112, Bf 109 B / E / E-3, Me209v4, Me209 A, I-17
Multi-Roles: F11C-2, F4F, P-47B, Fw 190 A-1 / A-5 / D, I- 5 / 15 / 16(e)(l)

Heavy Fighters: P-38 F/J,  XP-58, Tu-1, Bf 110 C-6, SE 100, Me 410, Do 335 A-1, Me 262

Attack Aircraft: Hs 123, Ha 137, Hs 129 A, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2
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Nachthexen_Tribute #8 Posted 09 October 2019 - 01:57 AM

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View PostwylleEcoyote, on 08 October 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

A 410 is as subtle as a mace to the face. And as brutal.  But Agile is not a word that associates with it. 

P-38 is a sword in your heart.

Both have the speed and power to get wherever you need to be (although p-38 is faster over time) whenever you need to be there.
However a 410 has to maintain speed to escape in the event that its first pass does not kill its target out right.

A lightning however has the ability to reach the target. Then slow down to match speeds. and still be agile enough to stay on the target's 6.
It can then Slay that target in short order. and has the acceleration to get back up to full speed almost instantly afterward. (and doesnt have to dive to do it)
It is so fast and agile that it does not need a turret gunner. (which makes it faster and more agile)



AND the P-38 can do all of that with a full Ordinance load-out slowing it down.

 

Annnd that's my point.  If you think the 410 is significantly better, then you are probably not an elite pilot.  When you ARE elite in several diff categories of planes, then you can see  how the 38 is more dangerous.  But it has to be an elite pilot, IMHO.

 

I have, in 1.x, seen the battle lost, but an elite pilot in a 38 who knows HOW TO FLY THE PLANE (and the 38 is almost the perfect heavy WHEN you are an elite pilot), turn a battle from lost to won.  You have to know how to B&Z as if it is an art.  The 410 is what you fly as you learn, until you become a true B&Z elite.  Then the 38 becomes the brush you use to paint the portrait of how to be OP in tier 6.

 

Nach


I use Nach instead of Nacht on purpose. And I pronounce it with the English "ch", like catch.

SpiritFoxMY #9 Posted 09 October 2019 - 02:15 AM

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Ki-102 is the face of OP at tier 6. Requires far less skill than the Me410. 

***

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For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


hoom #10 Posted 09 October 2019 - 02:20 AM

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If a person were to re-purchase a P-38 would it be better to go for the F or J? :unsure:

 

When I went through them I recall finding the F preferable, on the other hand J will have an extra Equipment slot or two which may be the more important factor now.

 

Block Quote

 Ki-102 is the face of OP at tier 6

 I've also only gotten to this plane & specialised it recently.

Its a bag of lols with that 57mm & amazing agility.

 

Was a bit of a PITA unspecialised though since it has no Cockpit slot -> quite hard to land.

Specialised it becomes vastly more deadly.

 


Edited by hoom, 09 October 2019 - 02:29 AM.

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

SpiritFoxMY #11 Posted 09 October 2019 - 02:55 AM

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View Posthoom, on 09 October 2019 - 10:20 AM, said:

If a person were to re-purchase a P-38 would it be better to go for the F or J? :unsure:

 

When I went through them I recall finding the F preferable, on the other hand J will have an extra Equipment slot or two which may be the more important factor now.

 

 I've also only gotten to this plane & specialised it recently.

Its a bag of lols with that 57mm & amazing agility.

 

Was a bit of a PITA unspecialised though since it has no Cockpit slot -> quite hard to land.

Specialised it becomes vastly more deadly.

 

 

I strongly recommend the 38F. The 38J is a good plane but its firmly a tier 6 plane. The 38F is fundamentally a tier 6 plane with tier 5 matchmaking.

 

The 102 is OP because its straight up idiot proof. It turns better than some Multiroles, has heavier firepower than everything short of a 410, has the altitude of a heavy fighter which allows it to hunt bombers if it needs to and enough boost to outrun - or chase down - any light fighter. It's not a finesse weapon but it works. 


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 09 October 2019 - 02:59 AM.

***

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So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


losttwo #12 Posted 09 October 2019 - 08:00 AM

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View PostStygian_Alchemist, on 08 October 2019 - 05:54 PM, said:

That would seem to imply that.. on a level.. you consider at least the two of those planes balanced against one another?


Had a discussion once, with another great player.

It was about the inability of a particular plane to out turn another particular plane.

I proved him wrong in a match.

Not that i am some great pile of skill but more of an opportunist in a situation.

 

How are you comparing the balance ?

Is it a flat track, straight, 1mile wrong or is it a full 500 hundred with left hand turns.

Maybe the track is nothing but dirt with hard drifting corners. Perhaps in the middle of the city with tighter drifts for smaller cars.

 

I do not know what the " paper " stats between the 2 planes would be.

In a match, all bets are off.



Stygian_Alchemist #13 Posted 09 October 2019 - 08:13 AM

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View Postlosttwo, on 09 October 2019 - 02:00 AM, said:


Had a discussion once, with another great player.

It was about the inability of a particular plane to out turn another particular plane.

I proved him wrong in a match.

Not that i am some great pile of skill but more of an opportunist in a situation.

 

How are you comparing the balance ?

Is it a flat track, straight, 1mile wrong or is it a full 500 hundred with left hand turns.

Maybe the track is nothing but dirt with hard drifting corners. Perhaps in the middle of the city with tighter drifts for smaller cars.

 

I do not know what the " paper " stats between the 2 planes would be.

In a match, all bets are off.

This has always been my thought/position as well regarding -most- of the planes in the game with some noticeable exceptions being more like: "Good lord this needs a buff". I-210 comes to mind.



Captain_Underpants53 #14 Posted 09 October 2019 - 09:06 AM

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View Postlosttwo, on 09 October 2019 - 03:00 AM, said:


Had a discussion once, with another great player.

It was about the inability of a particular plane to out turn another particular plane.

I proved him wrong in a match.

Not that i am some great pile of skill but more of an opportunist in a situation.

 

How are you comparing the balance ?

Is it a flat track, straight, 1mile wrong or is it a full 500 hundred with left hand turns.

Maybe the track is nothing but dirt with hard drifting corners. Perhaps in the middle of the city with tighter drifts for smaller cars.

 

I do not know what the " paper " stats between the 2 planes would be.

In a match, all bets are off.


Prove it

 


MSgt, USAF, (ret)

WafflesOfWrath #15 Posted 09 October 2019 - 02:54 PM

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I've been flying lightnings since the day their tree was added to the game.

 

In 1.x the US heavy tree was overall the best in the game, with a few exceptions or ties at certain tiers. My winrates with both lightnings in 1.x were around 85 to 88 percent, warplanes.today is no longer working so I can't say for sure and 2.0 doesn't show winrate by plane anymore, just overall WR.

 

The t5 p38 is more prone to compression stalls in a dive and is less maneuverable than the t6, making it fly like a dart. I flew my lightnings with 20mm/23mm cannon due to range and consistency, I've had to learn 37s due to them being forced on you in 2.0. Half of mastering p38s is making your shots at close range in your very small window of opportunity, if you can't land 37mm rounds you're wasting your passes and not securing kills. You also need an excellent lag free connection (where a spitfire is more forgiving of lag). The reason the t5 is so good is because its altitude envelope and speed are t6 level. You can reach speeds in excess of 700kph when built correctly. You can BnZ every monoplane fighter in the game at t5, most at t6 and catch any t5/t6 bomber. I can even escape p51s and 109Fs. When energy, altitude and airspeed are maintained correctly you are nigh unpunishable.

 

T5 - set up shallow dives, conserve altitude and resist the urge to take severe angle dives where your controls lock up and you're prone to lawn darting. Save boost to escape after a pass, nose down a bit to gain an edge on airspeed and climb again when safe. Learn the lead and velocity of your 37. You can easily kill all other heavies at t5, Ki-45s are a new beast but still easy. You simply hit them hard and then run instead of turnfighting like you would a 110 or beau. 

 

T6 is a totally different game, the p38J still has excellent speed but you will not escape p51Ds and 109Gs unless you start with a significant altitude advantage. You can still easily catch other HFs and bombers and outturn most. Combating the ki-102 is similar to t5, hit the paper plane hard and then boost away, you're much, MUCH faster. Toy with it till it dies. The p38J is much more controllable in a dive and is noticeably more maneuverable overall, but you're not in a whole different world of speed like t5. When built correctly you will still escape almost everything at tier with little effort. 

 

Against even the best 410 pilots in the game, the 38 is a hard counter and dumpsters them. Plenty of pilots "discovered" the 410 as a ticket to easy wins against bots and new pilots, but the 38 waltzes up to the 410 at any altitude and never leaves its tail until its dead. The only thing a 410 can do is dive for the deck, and the 38 will stay on it the whole way. The only chance a 410 has is to catch the 38 in its initial pass, if the lightning pilot has situational awareness and evades it's game over for the 410.

I would really prefer light cannon instead of the 37, when fully built your 20mm or 23mm will have perfect laser accuracy and reach out to 900+ meters. The 2 situations where this is most important are:
-fighting nimble altitude interceptors, one of your biggest threats (p40s/109Es, p51As/109Fs).
-chasing bulkier heavies in a dive (their only real defensive option after the merge). The 37 is ponderous at ranges over 400 meters, I find myself not landing hits until we're both on the deck, where with the light cannon I'd be plinking them during the whole dive.

The 37mm is only advantageous when hitting stalled-out aircraft or bombers. When built for max range you're capped at around 600 meters and the rounds group a bit below the reticle due to how the gun is mounted.



CorvusCorvax #16 Posted 09 October 2019 - 03:59 PM

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View PostNachthexen_Tribute, on 09 October 2019 - 01:57 AM, said:

 

Annnd that's my point.  If you think the 410 is significantly better, then you are probably not an elite pilot.  When you ARE elite in several diff categories of planes, then you can see  how the 38 is more dangerous.  But it has to be an elite pilot, IMHO.

 

I have, in 1.x, seen the battle lost, but an elite pilot in a 38 who knows HOW TO FLY THE PLANE (and the 38 is almost the perfect heavy WHEN you are an elite pilot), turn a battle from lost to won.  You have to know how to B&Z as if it is an art.  The 410 is what you fly as you learn, until you become a true B&Z elite.  Then the 38 becomes the brush you use to paint the portrait of how to be OP in tier 6.

 

Nach

Depends on your preference.   I like altitude and alpha.  I like to zap from range.  The 410 is better for that.  The 38J is better all around, but the pilot has to really know their business, because a crit can be fatal.  Anything that slows you down or hurts your turning is going to end poorly for you.  There are only a few pilots I've seen that can get the most out of a 38J.  A lot of the others just don't understand how to do BnZ correctly in this plane.

 

SFMY is correct.  Top dog in the T6 HF group is the Ki-102. Out-turns everything else.  Outshoots most everything else.  Flies high enough and fast enough that the others aren't going to get away in time.  

 

The 38J is great, but requires significant discipline to fly well.  If you're just out flying for grins this ain't the plane for you.


Edited by CorvusCorvax, 09 October 2019 - 03:59 PM.


qu33kKC #17 Posted 09 October 2019 - 04:29 PM

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I second SpiritFox's comments above.  The F is stronger AT TIER than the J, imho.

losttwo #18 Posted 09 October 2019 - 04:29 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 09 October 2019 - 04:06 AM, said:


Prove it

 


If my  memory serves me correctly the discussion was between me and mnvb_fockewulfe.

Back when he was basically new to the game.

It was either him or Psycko



GreatBallsO_Fire_Jr #19 Posted 09 October 2019 - 04:31 PM

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View PostWafflesOfWrath, on 09 October 2019 - 08:54 AM, said:

My winrates with both lightnings in 1.x were around 85 to 88 percent, warplanes.today is no longer working so I can't say for sure and 2.0 doesn't show winrate by plane anymore, just overall WR.

 

You can still check individual winrate from 2.0 just by going to your clan page and clicking on your name. It should open up and show your planes and their winrates



WafflesOfWrath #20 Posted 09 October 2019 - 08:06 PM

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View PostGreatBallsO_Fire_Jr, on 09 October 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

You can still check individual winrate from 2.0 just by going to your clan page and clicking on your name. It should open up and show your planes and their winrates



Oh, that's awesome! Didn't know this was possible currently. Still right around 87-88%, then.






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