44 replies to this topic

[InfiniZ3ro]

wylleEcoyote, on 24 August 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

Best answer is still... It Depends on your Wingman.

The Point of flying together is to have a means to co-ordinate the actions of two planes to do things that you can not do with one plane. 

If the two of you go off in separate directions to each "do your own thing" you might as be flying alone.
neither of you can help each other when you need it.
and will die as you fly. 
alone.
all you did was muck about with the matchmaker because a tier X plane did not want to see tier X +1
So it is in a flight with a tier X-1 .

Those are filthy selfish statpadders. And no one likes them.


Ideally, you are in a flight with the same plane. each with similar equipment builds for speed vs handling. 
This is to make certain that you stay close enough to each other that you can support each other when you are being attacked. or attacking.

Spoiler

A turn built MiG-3 can Not keep up with a cruise built MiG-3 when moving from cap to cap. Thus the cruiser looses his primary advantage.
And when they finally get to the cap to fight the cruiser can not keep up with the stuff the Turner is pulling. costing the turner His primary advantage.

With that in mind there are some exceptions. Very specific combinations of planes can go together like Chocolate and Peanut butter
or for that matter ... Thunder(bolt) and Lightning (its very very frightening to me, Galileo)

Ideally both of you have flown together long enough to know what each other will do in various circumstances and play to favor each other. 
Both of you know your preferred targets when entering a zone and know whether to help out or work on separate projects depending on what planes you fly.
Barring that one of you decides to DO do that thing THey do and the other is all "I will just follow behind you shooting at anyone that takes an interest in you"
 

Spoiler

A flight of P-40's will combine fire and turnfight anything at high altitude before each one dives into the furball below to pick off the weak while the other is watching to see if anyone tries to follow the first and then dives on him.

A flight of Me 410's would rather each kill one of the two heavy ADA in a cap (plus anything else up high they can head on attack) then form up to shoot targets of opportunity (calling out targets as they go to avoid confusion) as they plow into and out of a furball of spitfires and yaks and zeros. with both of their tail gunners discouraging whatever thinks they have enough boost to try and follow 

As to killing things...some aircraft in particular are under gunned and the extra damage from the second man in the first pass is enough to make a kill.
this is a good way to grind assists and kills as needed in a timely manner.

Spoiler

because in any match where everyone is shooting at everyone else focus firing wins

Or it gives the flight lead time to make a turn while what is left of the target is still actively avoiding damage from the flight mate.
(two Fw 190's trying to engage one very agile and an-ger-y boi on his Spitfire for example...)
Works the same way in defense hostile on your six? lead spits right. mate splits left.  hostile can only chase one. and in the second or so it takes for hostile to deciding if to disengage/follow one of you and then which one that will be;  both of you are well into (or have already completed) your roll and are turning around to get him.

The sequence of events were as follows. 

I toked a little bit

I read this post on the way to the shower

While in the shower, my brain did amazing things.  The visuals of the tactics you have described appeared before me in a very exciting and eye opening way.  I know these tactics are all real world things that are taught to pilots around the globe.  I have th ought about implementing some of them in game but I really don't fly with anyone enough to use these.  And strangely enough while in game I don't usually think about specific team maneuves.  

 

I'm excited to attempt this level of coordination on a regular basis. 

 

Excellent post. +1

[GrumpyReign]

wylleEcoyote, on 24 August 2019 - 03:23 PM, said:

Best answer is still... It Depends on your Wingman.

The Point of flying together is to have a means to co-ordinate the actions of two planes to do things that you can not do with one plane. 

If the two of you go off in separate directions to each "do your own thing" you might as be flying alone.
neither of you can help each other when you need it.
and will die as you fly. 
alone.
all you did was muck about with the matchmaker because a tier X plane did not want to see tier X +1
So it is in a flight with a tier X-1 .

Those are filthy selfish statpadders. And no one likes them.


Ideally, you are in a flight with the same plane. each with similar equipment builds for speed vs handling. 
This is to make certain that you stay close enough to each other that you can support each other when you are being attacked. or attacking.

Spoiler

A turn built MiG-3 can Not keep up with a cruise built MiG-3 when moving from cap to cap. Thus the cruiser looses his primary advantage.
And when they finally get to the cap to fight the cruiser can not keep up with the stuff the Turner is pulling. costing the turner His primary advantage.

With that in mind there are some exceptions. Very specific combinations of planes can go together like Chocolate and Peanut butter
or for that matter ... Thunder(bolt) and Lightning (its very very frightening to me, Galileo)

Ideally both of you have flown together long enough to know what each other will do in various circumstances and play to favor each other. 
Both of you know your preferred targets when entering a zone and know whether to help out or work on separate projects depending on what planes you fly.
Barring that one of you decides to DO do that thing THey do and the other is all "I will just follow behind you shooting at anyone that takes an interest in you"
 

Spoiler

A flight of P-40's will combine fire and turnfight anything at high altitude before each one dives into the furball below to pick off the weak while the other is watching to see if anyone tries to follow the first and then dives on him.

A flight of Me 410's would rather each kill one of the two heavy ADA in a cap (plus anything else up high they can head on attack) then form up to shoot targets of opportunity (calling out targets as they go to avoid confusion) as they plow into and out of a furball of spitfires and yaks and zeros. with both of their tail gunners discouraging whatever thinks they have enough boost to try and follow 

As to killing things...some aircraft in particular are under gunned and the extra damage from the second man in the first pass is enough to make a kill.
this is a good way to grind assists and kills as needed in a timely manner.

Spoiler

because in any match where everyone is shooting at everyone else focus firing wins

Or it gives the flight lead time to make a turn while what is left of the target is still actively avoiding damage from the flight mate.
(two Fw 190's trying to engage one very agile and an-ger-y boi on his Spitfire for example...)
Works the same way in defense hostile on your six? lead spits right. mate splits left.  hostile can only chase one. and in the second or so it takes for hostile to deciding if to disengage/follow one of you and then which one that will be;  both of you are well into (or have already completed) your roll and are turning around to get him.

 

agreed with infini.. this is a solid post everyone should read. gg, sooper genius.

[Wombatmetal]

GrumpyReign, on 24 August 2019 - 04:20 PM, said:

 

agreed with infini.. this is a solid post everyone should read. gg, sooper genius.

 

Going different directions does not mean you don't coordinate. I have done many flights in a bomber, and we coordinate, but are often not together.  Even in fighters there's times we split up. It's situational

 

What you do is stay in communication and always know what each other is up to  

[CorvusCorvax]

Stygian_Alchemist, on 24 August 2019 - 11:10 PM, said:

 if I take your claim of a 90% win rate 

Well, the answer is really very simple, and if you had been paying attention to my writing, you would know the answer.

When I am flying by myself, I am often grinding some thing or another, and actually don't care about any win but the first one, for double/triple/whatever XP.  Flying for tokens or turret kills or whatever.  Or, just for grins.  My win rate isn't interesting, and has never been, since well before you ever showed up here.  If I actually cared about it as a metric, I would fly my Bf-109B every other flight.  The other 50% of the time, I'd fly my P-38F.  Sealclubbing, but in tiers that count for stats.  Or I would just fly in flights.  It's just not a metric that matters to me, at all.  And I play that way, flying solo.

When I am flighted, I care about nothing else but the win.  And my flightmates will tell you that I carry often enough.   Finally, I would say my flighted play is less than 10% of my total play.  You know, because I don't want to take a bone-stock Ta-183 out flying when my flightmate wants a win.  I take out one of my specialized planes - planes that I DON'T fly that much when I'm flying solo.  [shrug]

 

wylie has it nailed.  A matched pair that sticks together can rule the skies.  A mis-matched pair that still does everything a sector needs can ALSO rule the skies, if they stick together to tag-team on the stuff the sector needs blown up.  GAA for ground targets, MRF for AA and ADA.  It works, and works well.

Try it some time.  You might just like it.

Edited by CorvusCorvax, 25 August 2019 - 03:24 AM.

[CorvusCorvax]

wylleEcoyote, on 24 August 2019 - 10:23 PM, said:

Best answer is still... It Depends on your Wingman.

The Point of flying together is to have a means to co-ordinate the actions of two planes to do things that you can not do with one plane. 

If the two of you go off in separate directions to each "do your own thing" you might as be flying alone.
neither of you can help each other when you need it.
and will die as you fly. 
alone.


Or it gives the flight lead time to make a turn while what is left of the target is still actively avoiding damage from the flight mate.
(two Fw 190's trying to engage one very agile and an-ger-y boi on his Spitfire for example...)
 

Spot on.  The FW-190 pairing is one of my favorites - two Doras can really kick some serious tail, and the Spitfire baiting is LOL-fun.  

 

Another one is the double Me-262, especially making head-to-head runs on planes, or one guy zapping a GAA while the other one is a bomber-buster.  Both carry bombs, and can take everything except a plant in one pass (plus ADA - can't forget the friend white planes!)

[CorvusCorvax]

InfiniZ3ro, on 24 August 2019 - 11:53 PM, said:

The sequence of events were as follows. 

I toked a little bit

I read this post on the way to the shower

While in the shower, my brain did amazing things.  The visuals of the tactics you have described appeared before me in a very exciting and eye opening way.  I know these tactics are all real world things that are taught to pilots around the globe.  I have th ought about implementing some of them in game but I really don't fly with anyone enough to use these.  And strangely enough while in game I don't usually think about specific team maneuves.  

 

I'm excited to attempt this level of coordination on a regular basis. 

 

Excellent post. +1

Do you have Discord?

 

If you do, flight comms are a lot easier.  Not only can you communicate directly with your flightmate, but you and your flightmate can direct the bots to do something else.  I'd be happy to help, at any tier you want to fly, you choose your machine, and I choose something that can help.

[GrumpyReign]

Wombatmetal, on 24 August 2019 - 07:41 PM, said:

 

Going different directions does not mean you don't coordinate. I have done many flights in a bomber, and we coordinate, but are often not together.  Even in fighters there's times we split up. It's situational

 

What you do is stay in communication and always know what each other is up to  

 

well. crap.

 

it took me a minute to figure out what you were counterarguing, and now i see that i overlooked a couplea critical points..i maintain it's a great post, but you are right that some nuances were missed, and that's my bad.

[InfiniZ3ro]

CorvusCorvax, on 24 August 2019 - 11:23 PM, said:

Do you have Discord?

 

If you do, flight comms are a lot easier.  Not only can you communicate directly with your flightmate, but you and your flightmate can direct the bots to do something else.  I'd be happy to help, at any tier you want to fly, you choose your machine, and I choose something that can help.

I do have discord and had some flights with Azis_ for the remainder of the night. 2 drunken idiots attempt in to win battles while also attemting to ease what our brains were telling us to do.  I can't say we won them all but it sure was fun trying.... He often outscored me but it all boiled down to "just shoot planes"..  I guess some level of coherence is a must.  Still, a lot of fun

Edited by InfiniZ3ro, 25 August 2019 - 08:32 AM.

[White_Widow18]

CorvusCorvax, on 24 August 2019 - 08:54 PM, said:

Well, the answer is really very simple, and if you had been paying attention to my writing, you would know the answer.

When I am flying by myself, I am often grinding some thing or another, and actually don't care about any win but the first one, for double/triple/whatever XP.  Flying for tokens or turret kills or whatever.  Or, just for grins.  My win rate isn't interesting, and has never been, since well before you ever showed up here.  If I actually cared about it as a metric, I would fly my Bf-109B every other flight.  The other 50% of the time, I'd fly my P-38F.  Sealclubbing, but in tiers that count for stats.  Or I would just fly in flights.  It's just not a metric that matters to me, at all.  And I play that way, flying solo.

When I am flighted, I care about nothing else but the win.  And my flightmates will tell you that I carry often enough.   Finally, I would say my flighted play is less than 10% of my total play.  You know, because I don't want to take a bone-stock Ta-183 out flying when my flightmate wants a win.  I take out one of my specialized planes - planes that I DON'T fly that much when I'm flying solo.  [shrug]

 

wylie has it nailed.  A matched pair that sticks together can rule the skies.  A mis-matched pair that still does everything a sector needs can ALSO rule the skies, if they stick together to tag-team on the stuff the sector needs blown up.  GAA for ground targets, MRF for AA and ADA.  It works, and works well.

Try it some time.  You might just like it.

You're so.. smarmy.. and you're also not entirely correct and neither is Wylle. *shrug* Like I said, people can disagree. That's fine. Not everyone flies the same or with the same types of skillsets. Funky concept that?

But sure.. try to shove your opinion down my throat repeatedly while claiming I'm the one doing it... K..

I'm good Corvus, bless your heart.

Especially on your attempts at explaining win-rate discrepancies vs. claims.... 

I appreciate your difference of anecdotal experience and preference. There's other views out there hun and other ways to fly that garner equal success.

o7

GL and see you in the skies.

Edited by Stygian_Alchemist, 25 August 2019 - 09:00 AM.

[White_Widow18]

Wombatmetal, on 24 August 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:

 

Going different directions does not mean you don't coordinate. I have done many flights in a bomber, and we coordinate, but are often not together.  Even in fighters there's times we split up. It's situational

 

What you do is stay in communication and always know what each other is up to  

This.

[qu33kKC]

InfiniZ3ro, on 24 August 2019 - 04:24 PM, said:

 Almost all of my flights are not using voice chat either.  I still think hashing out a general plan before taking off is the best bet.

 

I would argue that having voice chat is one of the MOST important things that makes a Flight effective.  The coordination and flexibility that it allows for makes the team FAR more than just the sum of its parts.  (I fly solo most of the time, but if I"m Flighted, it's usually with a darn good pilot from my clan, and the communication is what makes it work.)

[SpiritFoxMY]

I feel crippled without voice. Depending on whether I'm the lead or the support, I need voice to either instruct my flightmate on our plans or to update my flight lead on what's happening to me and around me.

[CorvusCorvax]

Stygian_Alchemist, on 25 August 2019 - 08:51 AM, said:

you're also not entirely correct

Well, I'm not the one of us who stated my opinion as fact, so...

[CorvusCorvax]

qu33kKC, on 25 August 2019 - 02:13 PM, said:

 

I would argue that having voice chat is one of the MOST important things that makes a Flight effective.  The coordination and flexibility that it allows for makes the team FAR more than just the sum of its parts.  (I fly solo most of the time, but if I"m Flighted, it's usually with a darn good pilot from my clan, and the communication is what makes it work.)

There is no doubt about that.  Get together with one of those guys, and the channel fills up with all kinds of good advice.  I think some of their bombing skills are rubbing off.

[wylleEcoyote]

Ok so i KNEW i was only giving a overly simplified response to a question that has a very Nuanced set of answers. and the Woman pried me away from me typing the thesis  to enjoy some nice weather. But yall went into the reeds any way.
so my bad for not finishing what i started.  My punishment is to take my sunday flying hours to write/edit this post.

First: thanks for the upvotes.


 to styg and corvus: Throttle back on the personal attacks. Y'all had some valid points but then started throwing poop at each other
To ace bot: throwing a match on that oil and water to cook up some tasty popcorn was funny but not helpful. 
There is too much to go over (TopGunSchool takes weeks irl for a reason) and We dont need more Distractions

 

so here we go with a part 2 to my response that will address some important views brought up for discussion.

Recap: OP kicked off this avalanche with
"When flighted with other pilot, do you stick close together or just play "your" game and hope for the best?"

Yes. I do both. I prefer the former. But without voice comms i am usually forced into the latter.
Even so in that situation "My" game has changed from 'what do i feel like doing right now'  to
'What can i play that will work well with this pilot  with a minimum of input that doesnt stomp all over their fun"

OP Thirsts for more knowledge and goes further with "I understand that plane type dictated a bit, but how do you play flights generally?"
Short answer: there is no Easy answer to that question because; beyond "the available levels of communication" , plane type dictates EVERYTHING not just "a bit"
 

Presuming the worst and there are no comms to speak of except the flight chat with someone where english is not the primary language.  What do?

if the other guy is in a fighter

of any kind...

 Light. MR. Heavy. It doesnt matter. I will do my best to match up with them.
And help them have a good game by keeping enemies of their back. if i am close enough to help them they are close enough to help me when i hit the "Help Me" hot key

Because my mission goal is "Keep My Flight Alive"

But what about GAA/Bombers?

Presuming poor coms; it is best for me to escort the other Pilot in the bomber with my favorite heavy. And escort the GAA in my favorite turny Multirole.

With Good Comms and a pilot that "thinks as i do" then we can do a very different game, indeed.  Just look at Prenslau & Zegfried

Spoiler

 if dude is in a Bomber or GAA, it is important to know that those planes are balanced toward being able to solo cap reliably with sufficient skill.
If I hop in the exact same plane and going where they go and directly compete with scoring in a random battle then i am a bad person.

Unless I am specifically trying to do a teaching moment like:
"This is how I use this bomber/GAA. follow me and watch how and listen to why i make particular approaches and select my targets and disperse my ordinance the way i do." 
Which is what the training rooms are for ladies and gents. Use them!

But when we work well together...
 for example good co-orordination between two american bombers creates a convenient no fly zone. and is soooper fun.  (so much Dakka!)
and if they are really good can lay down single sticks of bombs that dont overlap and can together flip a cap with one well placed drop from each.
which allows them to do the same with another cap ASAP.  And when its bomb reloading time they can take a detour though a contested garrison/airfield not worth their usual attention and fly through a dogfight shooting everything that moves. (lots of assists and kill steals)  as they make their way to something important like a CC/factory/Missile Base

russian /german bombers OTOH rely on precision placement of their payload.
Any competent bomber pilot worthy of the moniker is good enough to mitigate the RNG from the equation and can flip a cap solo and still have spare payload left over.   
SO good comms will mean that the pair of them will designate targets and not wind up wasting ordinance on each others smoking craters.
Remember: because each of you have half the targets; then you can dump twice the ordinance per target.
Because Overkill is the best way to place RNGezus on the bench where he belongs. (ask the Americans)

Broadly speaking, what i said about bombers just now also applies to GAA. Whether you are in a Bomb first shoot later russian or a shoot first bomb later german.  (Ps this can be a chocolate /peanut butter situation with good communication skills.. this can also be a disaster without it).

Capt Underpants throws in a vote for Its situational
OP agrees and puts forth the idea that talking to you wing man before the battle button is pressed could be a good thing>
And i would +1 the both of them. but im out of upvotes.

Spirit Fox BOOMS into the conversation before Zooming off by preferring  to split up.   a Dissenting Opinion!

Spoiler

 this preference is dependent on the flight being a step beyond competent. The Flight has to actually be Good.

Which is fine for Spirit Fox. He IS that good. Actually a bit more than good. Good enough so that he can make up for a pilot that is "mostly" good and still have fun and successful times.
(see the ongoing adventures of Spirit&Trikke)

And this is also dependant on how stiff the competition is.

So this is a defacto "Situational" vote. 
There is a pattern here!

Lostwoo agrees with Spirit.

Just like in game  after Spirit stirs the pot Trikke comes in to land a critical hit. 
by bringing up two uncommon but easy to replicate situations where teamwork works very well. 
Personally i think anyone that wants to flight up on the regular should make a habit out of them.

WhoaBlackBetty brings it all home with a vote for situational
and goes in depth in to giving a list of factors that need consideration like plane class, tier, and when player skills dont quite match up.
Good points are made. but only briefly goes into the how and why. ( because he would rather play than type for another 3 hours)

OP taps out and joins the "Its situational" camp. And states that he usually does not have access to comms.
And is now concerned that this rabbit hole goes deeeeep.
And decides that having some plan is better than none even if no plan survives enemy contact.

To this point I offer a trick...

due to my own lack of competence I too have issues with voice comms.
When i run discord/teamspeak etc on the computer with WoWp then the sound for one or the other drops out . and i need both.
So i made a work around. I use a cellphone with bluetooth headset (and the house wifi) to run discord.
And play the game as normal without bothering with making in game voice chat work (Because i cant reliably do it) .

 
 
Corvus chimes in with " In any case, as a LF/HF driver, I am almost always more likely to stick with my flight-mate and cover.  Yes, the point total is almost always lower, but the wins (and salvage parts) make up for it."

Stygian otoh would almost always split up. (another Discenting Opinion. Our conventional Wisdom is challenged) Because focus firing is a waste of fire power. A premise for which I disagree.

Mathematically that is not usually the case. especially with weapons that do their damage over time. 
But just because a flight of fighters like the Bf109 E-3 should focus fire.  Does Not mean that a Me 410 flight should necessarily share kills with each other.

But Stygian is right when it comes to big ordinance.  Nothing sucks more than throwing cannon shells and rockets and bombs at stuff that is blowed up already
but  (say it with me kids) "with proper communication"  (very good!)  I feel that this shouldn't happen.
A flight leader without voice comms can still designate targets (to hit or to ignore) with a hot key.

[EDIT]
Stygian goes on to remind me that for a "good pilot" that is used to carrying an Entire team across a whole map, a "Good Wingman" is someone that can carry the left half of the Map while you are carrying the right half of the Map.
Thus allowing both of them to concentrate ALL their attention and efficiency on only half of the Enemy team. Because each one trusts the other to 'handle their business'
[/EDIT]


Corvus/Stygian go on to disagree further.

mostly by using the "My stats are better therefore; statistically, i must be right" sort of argument.

But in the end they can each hold their own arguments because their particular playstyles lead toward their different approaches.

The rest of us go on to reach a consensus around the following:
Plan ahead. for what you expect and for what you dont.
Share your plans with your wingman. Make certain everyone is on the same page.
When in doubt, Stick to the plan.
Finally no plan survives contact with the enemy. Have back up plans.

And that what ever you do  ... 

 

Spoiler

"you take that one. i got these two" 

"aw crapwe got incoming on our 6. two bots a human and a specialist ... and the specialist is coming here. You break left ill break right".

"im beginning my attack run.
Rodger. You're 6 is clear. Blow this joint so we can go home.
Copy gold lead im already on my way out"

"Is that a formation of bot multiroles?
Yeah it is.
They are all going to that rocket base..
Yes. they are
Are we gonna keep going to the plant?
Nope.
Dibs on Mechislav. the thud not a problem. You taking the tornado?
Yep
Rodger Diving now..."

you do it best with good voice comms..
 


Therefore: Get voice comms. Use them well. and you dont even have to be great pilots to be effective. 
But Im not gonna lie. skill really comes in handy...

 

Edited by wylleEcoyote, 26 August 2019 - 02:41 AM.

[trikke]

CorvusCorvax, on 25 August 2019 - 04:51 PM, said:

Well, I'm not the one of us who stated my opinion as fact, so...

 

get a room, you two!

[White_Widow18]

CorvusCorvax, on 25 August 2019 - 02:51 PM, said:

Well, I'm not the one of us who stated my opinion as fact, so...

Twist someone else's words and infer whatever meaning you want hun. I am rather tired of you puppy dog following me around just to aggro comment with faked offense. Either way... doesn't matter going forward.  
 

wylleEcoyote, on 25 August 2019 - 06:19 PM, said:

Ok so i KNEW i was only giving a overly simplified response to a question that has a very Nuanced set of answers. and the Woman pried me away from me typing the thesis  to enjoy some nice weather. But yall went into the reeds any way.
so my bad for not finishing what i started.  My punishment is to take my sunday flying hours to write/edit this post.

First: thanks for the upvotes.


 to styg and corvus: Throttle back on the personal attacks. Y'all had some valid points but then started throwing poop at each other
To ace bot: throwing a match on that oil and water to cook up some tasty popcorn was funny but not helpful. 
There is too much to go over (TopGunSchool takes weeks irl for a reason) and We dont need more Distractions

 

so here we go with a part 2 to my response that will address some important views brought up for discussion.

Recap: OP kicked off this avalanche with
"When flighted with other pilot, do you stick close together or just play "your" game and hope for the best?"

Yes. I do both. I prefer the former. But without voice comms i am usually forced into the latter.
Even so in that situation "My" game has changed from 'what do i feel like doing right now'  to
'What can i play that will work well with this pilot  with a minimum of input that doesnt stomp all over their fun"

OP Thirsts for more knowledge and goes further with "I understand that plane type dictated a bit, but how do you play flights generally?"
Short answer: there is no Easy answer to that question because; beyond "the available levels of communication" , plane type dictates EVERYTHING not just "a bit"
 

Presuming the worst and there are no comms to speak of except the flight chat with someone where english is not the primary language.  What do?

if the other guy is in a fighter

of any kind...

 Light. MR. Heavy. It doesnt matter. I will do my best to match up with them.
And help them have a good game by keeping enemies of their back. if i am close enough to help them they are close enough to help me when i hit the "Help Me" hot key

Because my mission goal is "Keep My Flight Alive"

But what about GAA/Bombers?

Presuming poor coms; it is best for me to escort the other Pilot in the bomber with my favorite heavy. And escort the GAA in my favorite turny Multirole.

With Good Comms and a pilot that "thinks as i do" then we can do a very different game, indeed.  Just look at Prenslau & Zegfried

Spoiler

 if dude is in a Bomber or GAA, it is important to know that those planes are balanced toward being able to solo cap reliably with sufficient skill.
If I hop in the exact same plane and going where they go and directly compete with scoring in a random battle then i am a bad person.

Unless I am specifically trying to do a teaching moment like:
"This is how I use this bomber/GAA. follow me and watch how and listen to why i make particular approaches and select my targets and disperse my ordinance the way i do." 
Which is what the training rooms are for ladies and gents. Use them!

But when we work well together...
 for example good co-orordination between two american bombers creates a convenient no fly zone. and is soooper fun.  (so much Dakka!)
and if they are really good can lay down single sticks of bombs that dont overlap and can together flip a cap with one well placed drop from each.
which allows them to do the same with another cap ASAP.  And when its bomb reloading time they can take a detour though a contested garrison/airfield not worth their usual attention and fly through a dogfight shooting everything that moves. (lots of assists and kill steals)  as they make their way to something important like a CC/factory/Missile Base

russian /german bombers OTOH rely on precision placement of their payload.
Any competent bomber pilot worthy of the moniker is good enough to mitigate the RNG from the equation and can flip a cap solo and still have spare payload left over.   
SO good comms will mean that the pair of them will designate targets and not wind up wasting ordinance on each others smoking craters.
Remember: because each of you have half the targets; then you can dump twice the ordinance per target.
Because Overkill is the best way to place RNGezus on the bench where he belongs. (ask the Americans)

Broadly speaking, what i said about bombers just now also applies to GAA. Whether you are in a Bomb first shoot later russian or a shoot first bomb later german.  (Ps this can be a chocolate /peanut butter situation with good communication skills.. this can also be a disaster without it).

Capt Underpants throws in a vote for Its situational
OP agrees and puts forth the idea that talking to you wing man before the battle button is pressed could be a good thing>
And i would +1 the both of them. but im out of upvotes.

Spirit Fox BOOMS into the conversation before Zooming off by preferring  to split up.    a Dissenting Opinion!

Spoiler

 this preference is dependent on the flight being a step beyond competent. The Flight has to actually be Good.

Which is fine for Spirit Fox. He IS that good. Actually a bit more than good. Good enough so that he can make up for a pilot that is "mostly" good and still have fun and successful times.
(see the ongoing adventures of Spirit&Trikke)

And this is also dependant on how stiff the competition is.

So this is a defacto "Situational" vote. 
There is a pattern here!

Lostwoo agrees with Spirit.

Just like in game  after Spirit stirs the pot Trikke comes in to land a critical hit. 
by bringing up two uncommon but easy to replicate situations where teamwork works very well. 
Personally i think anyone that wants to flight up on the regular should make a habit out of them.

WhoaBlackBetty brings it all home with a vote for situational
and goes in depth in to giving a list of factors that need consideration like plane class, tier, and when player skills dont quite match up.
Good points are made. but only briefly goes into the how and why. ( because he would rather play than type for another 3 hours)

OP taps out and joins the "Its situational" camp. And states that he usually does not have access to comms.
And is now concerned that this rabbit hole goes deeeeep.
And decides that having some plan is better than none even if no plan survives enemy contact.

To this point I offer a trick...

due to my own lack of competence I too have issues with voice comms.
When i run discord/teamspeak etc on the computer with WoWp then the sound for one or the other drops out . and i need both.
So i made a work around. I use a cellphone with bluetooth headset (and the house wifi) to run discord.
And play the game as normal without bothering with making in game voice chat work (Because i cant reliably do it) .

 
 
Corvus chimes in with " In any case, as a LF/HF driver, I am almost always more likely to stick with my flight-mate and cover.  Yes, the point total is almost always lower, but the wins (and salvage parts) make up for it."

Stygian otoh would almost always split up. Because focus firing is a waste of fire power.
Mathematically that is not usually the case. especially with weapons that do their damage over time. 
But just because a flight of fighters like the Bf109 E-3 should focus fire.  Does Not mean that a Me 410 flight should necessarily share kills with each other.

But They are right when it comes to big ordinance.  Nothing sucks more than throwing cannon shells and rockets and bombs at stuff that is blowed up already
but  (say it with me kids) "with proper communication"  (very good!)  I feel that this shouldn't happen.
A flight leader without voice comms can still designate targets (to hit or to ignore) with a hot key.

they go on to disagree further.

mostly by using the "My stats are better therefore; statistically, i must be right" sort of argument.

But in the end they can each hold their own arguments because their particular playstyles lead toward their different approaches.

And everyone goes on to reach a consensus around the following:
Plan ahead. for what you expect and for what you dont.
Share your plans with your wingman. Make certain everyone is on the same page.
When in doubt, Stick to the plan.
Finally no plan survives contact with the enemy. Have back up plans.

And that what ever you do  ... 

 

Spoiler

"you take that one. i got these two" 

"aw crapwe got incoming on our 6. two bots a human and a specialist ... and the specialist is coming here. You break left ill break right".

"im beginning my attack run.
Rodger. You're 6 is clear. Blow this joint so we can go home.
Copy gold lead im already on my way out"

"Is that a formation of bot multiroles?
Yeah it is.
They are all going to that rocket base..
Yes. they are
Are we gonna keep going to the plant?
Nope.
Dibs on Mechislav. the thud not a problem. You taking the tornado?
Yep
Rodger Diving now..."

you do it best with good voice comms..
 


Therefore: Get voice comms. Use them well. and you dont even have to be good pilots to be effective. (skill still helps though). 

 

As far as I am concerned, what many are selectively choosing to ignore is travel time node to node. I appreciate your views, I appreciate how it works for others.. but the math doesn't add up for -me- when I take into account -actual- damage outputs as opposed to theoretical ones when considering travel time and etc. Just my experience, but I've literally seen no one thoroughly address that in their ideas so far. *shrug* Are there cases where sticking together is more beneficial... yes. I've already said that as well.

 

trikke, on 25 August 2019 - 06:30 PM, said:

 

get a room, you two!

 

Your comment is not appreciated by, or amusing to, me. I'm disappointed to be honest... *shrug* Whatever.

[trikke]

Stygian_Alchemist, on 25 August 2019 - 09:00 PM, said:

Your comment is not appreciated by, or amusing to, me. I'm disappointed to be honest... *shrug* Whatever.

 

I apologize.    cheap joke about two people that I respect

[White_Widow18]

trikke, on 25 August 2019 - 07:19 PM, said:

 

I apologize.    cheap joke about two people that I respect

Ultimately, it's fine, and I've resolved any issue RE: Corvus and I going forward. Failed experiment was failed experiment. I feel very Robert De Niro about the situation there.

My apologies for letting myself get sucked in folks!

[wylleEcoyote]

Stygian_Alchemist, on 25 August 2019 - 08:00 PM, said:

As far as I am concerned, what many are selectively choosing to ignore is travel time node to node. I appreciate your views, I appreciate how it works for others.. but the math doesn't add up for -me- when I take into account -actual- damage outputs as opposed to theoretical ones when considering travel time and etc. Just my experience, but I've literally seen no one thoroughly address that in their ideas so far. *shrug* Are there cases where sticking together is more beneficial... yes. I've already said that as well.

I see what you are getting at. 
There is a lot to keep track of, anticipate, and do something about on the map when you fly alone.
From that point of view a "Great" Wing man is some that you can say "i have the left half of the map you take the right half of the map" and not have to worry about them screwing it up for you. Allowing you to devote all your attention to only half as much battle.

I have avoided that 'travel time between nodes' topic because the value of any opinion is entirely dependant to the vehicle in question. Good advice for managing Spitfire Travel time is bad advice for a P-38 and vice versa.

I wanted to speak in general terms. To avoid writing a novella. Or for that matter making other's break their scroll wheel reading it.
 

Spoiler

If was going to get THAT much into detail i would feel compelled to make a comprehensive list of  "Plane A with Build B works well with Plane X with Build Y."
Each on followed up with a "Here is Why and This is How ya do it." 
And you can bet that 'travel time between zones (good or bad)' would be something worth mentioning when I got around to talking about all the bits under the Airspeed category. 
Given the amount of follow up commentary that could incur. I might be better off making a separate thread for each combo.