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Teir IX Germany, MR vs GAA


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Stygian_Alchemist #21 Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:35 PM

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My experience shows a different outcome in bomber vs. German GAA. I get this feeling I am running an entirely different equipment and pilot build than everyone else given the speeds and dpm I'm hearing vs. what I know I do. The EF-131 I'd say has a slight edge, but the Su-10 is a joke of a bomber as far as I am concerned.. either that or -no one- who I've seen in it in all these weeks knows how to utilize it appropriately. I keep killing them in the aforementioned German GAA. Literally. I mean.. you come down that low in altitude, expect me to pop you like the oversized XP dummy you are.

EF 131 pilots have been doing this recently as well.. so....

I dunno *shrug* 

All of it is anecdotal, no one has actual statistics.. just a feel. I will admit I'm not -as- dominant as I was prior to bombers at T10 being a thing, but that would only make sense given that there's now competition in the ground pounding game... but I don't feel like my overall value has become any less or my ability to carry a match. Especially given the very low # of people who actually know how to bomb.

Editing to add: I do not see any reason whatsoever to unmothball my IL-40P though. I've been eyeballing putting her aircrew somewhere useful. It's just too slow no matter how you build it. Beautiful plane, completely useless.


Edited by Stygian_Alchemist, 14 August 2019 - 09:42 PM.


desert786 #22 Posted 15 August 2019 - 03:35 AM

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View PostStygian_Alchemist, on 14 August 2019 - 01:35 PM, said:

My experience shows a different outcome in bomber vs. German GAA. I get this feeling I am running an entirely different equipment and pilot build than everyone else given the speeds and dpm I'm hearing vs. what I know I do. The EF-131 I'd say has a slight edge, but the Su-10 is a joke of a bomber as far as I am concerned.. either that or -no one- who I've seen in it in all these weeks knows how to utilize it appropriately. I keep killing them in the aforementioned German GAA. Literally. I mean.. you come down that low in altitude, expect me to pop you like the oversized XP dummy you are.

i seem to recall a number of battles were I out capped you in my unspecialized su 10 while u were flying your specialized EF. hard thonk.

 

you are correct though the SU 10 is more difficult to fly. it require memorization and active gameplay. this is the opposite of the EF, whose gameplay can be simplified to press W, F and Spacebar over the large ground targets. also whatever key your gun-view is

the su 10 ordnance lets u cap almost any sector with one bomb load. this requires you to know your runs and accurately place your bombs. the latter is why i choose to fly low when attacking then boost back up to optimal if necessary. you are also forgetting its 4 tail guns that reach out 1200m+ with between 384-422 dmg. yeah things dont last long if they get within 500m.

 

here are the stats you "require" all the aircraft have fully upgraded Hardpoints with 10% reload reduction trait. put some of the speeds in but forget some as well, like the il 40's but who cares they slow. 

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Edited by desert786, 15 August 2019 - 03:37 AM.


Stygian_Alchemist #23 Posted 15 August 2019 - 07:26 AM

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Lol @ desert. Interesting fantasy... But let's go with that.. Most of my games I'm flying solo.. Whereas you're flighted. I don't use gold consumables.. You do. I don't use 'mods'... You do.

 

If you couldn't out score me just based on mechanical advantage of using consumables I'd be disappointed. Given that when I bother to use them my scores and win rates also go up.

 

As usual though..youve managed to make everything about your ego and how awesome you think you are. We all have those moments.. But could you.. Maybe give it a rest?

 

Your opinion is noted and has been noted regarding your personal belief in your superiority in all things to everyone. Don't worry, we won't forget what you think of yourself. 

 


Edited by Stygian_Alchemist, 15 August 2019 - 07:27 AM.


qu33kKC #24 Posted 15 August 2019 - 12:56 PM

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SpiritFox, thank you very much for that.  Reading your analysis of the batplane almost makes me salivate to fly it.  :playing:

 

For all who gave input here, thank you as well.  The various angles of discussion are fascinating.  This is still a hard choice for me for a variety of reasons.  The batplane would give me something other than the Fury to fly at Tier IX, and I really don't enjoy flying the Fury.  (The Banshee is another matter. . . .:izmena: )  I currently don't have a Tier IX bomber, and the single bomb Tier VIII and X German ones that I do have I'm still working on finding the sweet spot with them.  I can't imagine that the Tier IX German would be any different.

 

*edit after watching SpiritFox's videos.*  dat roll.  dem guns.  :great: *edit off*


Edited by qu33kKC, 15 August 2019 - 01:20 PM.


SpiritFoxMY #25 Posted 15 August 2019 - 02:35 PM

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The tier 9 and 10 German bombers play roughly like this:

 

The Ju287 is my most played bomber and its easily the most powerful ground-pounder at tier 9. The EF131 is similar, just with a more powerful tailgun, higher speed and altitude.


***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


qu33kKC #26 Posted 15 August 2019 - 03:09 PM

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SpiritFox, the clarity of your replays is a thing of beauty.   Thank you for the examples!

wylleEcoyote #27 Posted 15 August 2019 - 03:57 PM

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Block Quote

 

The 1099B-2 is, otoh, a relatively idiot-proof GAA. Its top 4xMK103s allow it to quickly take out defenses from a safe distance and engage targets at a comfortable stand-off range.Heat cycles on the quad 103s is decent and the guns themselves hit hard. There's some argument as to whether the 4xMK103s or the 1xMK214 50mm "Narwhal" is the better attack configuration, but I think the general opinion is that the quad MK103s are better all-round weapons while the Narwhal is better at hitting purely ground targets; [1] you use them as long ranged shotguns since GAAs don't get any autoaim on their weapons so throwing four shots instead of one means four times the chance of actually landing a hit. 

 


[1] Agreed.  A point of contention i have with the Narwhal configuration is that it is hard pressed to hit flying targets. Much like the the tier 5-6 cannon birds that precede it.
Which is for the best; imo. if they were THAT accurate at their maximum ranges; they would become flying Flack cannon. And give everyone else the kind of headaches reserved for russian mutiroles with those derp guns.

Especially if it could take advantage of ultimate grade equipment bonuses at maxed efficiency (lucky for everyone else they cant) 

The trade off DOES have tremendous value if you are the sort of pilot that is strictly there to pound the ground. (after all dealing with airplanes is what flights/escorts are for) but it is a very weird gimmick.

Numbers for the interested

 

Block Quote

Overall I'd say this plane rewards a rather more deliberate attack pattern, taking the time to pick off light targets and AA positions from a distance before moving in to administer the coup de gras with your bombs. It works best on relatively soft targets like Garrisons, Airfields, Airbases and Missile Bases where a single large hardened target or two smaller medium ones can be taken out with a single four-bomb salvo with the rest of the lighter targets being picked off along the way. Command Centers and Fortresses can also be taken on because of your superior flak suppression capabilities but Mining Plants are a problem since your four bombs are simply insufficient and your quad MK103s don't have enough DPS to burn down quite that many hardened targets in a go.

 

This German "all about the guns" GAA game play is honestly what separates it from the Russian "All about the ordinance" GAA game play.   Doing things the russian way in german planes; and vice versa, is a text book example of putting a square peg in a round hole.

 

Block Quote

This kinda nicely segues into the discussion about the obsolescence of the GAA as a class overall and I know that a lot of people are crucifying desert for his blunt assessment of the class - but he's right.

 
As much as it pains me to do so. I agree with this as well.

In the PvE element of this game that is Ground attack, Bomber play by its nature produces higher burst damage. and then gtfo while the payload recycles.  And is more susceptible to RNG as a result. But when appropriate steps are taken to minimize that RNG ; the results are undeniable. 

GAA play can sustain more consistent damage over time that is much less susceptible to RNG.
And can far more readily capitalize on the mistakes of others Ground pounders in ways that most bombers (with the possible exception of mid tier german bombers ) can not do without severe repercussions to their efficiency.  Which does level the field quite a bit.

In the end:
GAA maximize their efficiency when someone (or some-bot) else makes a mistake.
Bombers maximize their efficiency by not making a mistake in the first place.   

 


Edited by wylleEcoyote, 15 August 2019 - 04:23 PM.

Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is very hit or miss. Usually I start on the right track and then a make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 
And yet it doesn't stop me from speculation.
Specialist Planes i have:
USA: XP-31, F1C-2, Model 81A-1, P-40, F4F, P-38F, P-39N-1, P-47B, P-38J, XF15C, XP-58 

USSR: Tu-1  UK: DH.100 F1. Japan: not even once. France: SE 100
Germany: Fw 56, He 112, Fw 190 A-5, Bf 109 B, Bf 109 E, Bf 109 E-3, Me209 A, Do 17 Z, Do 217 M, Hs 123, Ha 137, Hs 129 A, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2,  Bf 110 C-6, Me 410, Do 335 A-1,


Stygian_Alchemist #28 Posted 16 August 2019 - 02:37 AM

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Leaving these here as a counterpoint to the notion that GAA are somehow less than they were:
 
Spoiler
 
Spoiler
 
Spoiler


desert786 #29 Posted 16 August 2019 - 02:58 AM

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View PostStygian_Alchemist, on 14 August 2019 - 11:26 PM, said:

Lol @ desert. Interesting fantasy... But let's go with that.. Most of my games I'm flying solo.. Whereas you're flighted. I don't use gold consumables.. You do. I don't use 'mods'... You do.

If you couldn't out score me just based on mechanical advantage of using consumables I'd be disappointed. Given that when I bother to use them my scores and win rates also go up.

 

Your opinion is noted and has been noted regarding your personal belief in your superiority in all things to everyone. Don't worry, we won't forget what you think of yourself. 

 


i dont use gold consumables and i dont use mods. sure if i win some and i have a mission to do or event, i will use the stock i have. give WeeGee my hard earned money for some minuscule % boost, nope.

 

again with the mods, WHAT MODS? i know of aircraft skins and bot detector, neither of which i use. If you said this to me back when i played tank, then yes i used a lot of mods, Aslains mod pack had very many useful things. this game doesn't need mods and i dont need the hassle of updating or the possibility of making the game more unstable than it is.

 

neck you can even see in the screen shots my lack of gold and no gold consumables on the planes. granted both the planes in the background are not played very often

 

yeah i flight a lot and so do you. It part of the game. it increase your odd of winning and is enjoyable to play with others. playing solo is boring to me unless i have some challenge or goal i am working towards.

 

 

i will make a deal with you white widow. If you stop offering your heavily opinionated opinion and flaunting your "ego" i will as well. just so we are clear this mean not participating in the forums anymore.

 

View Postqu33kKC, on 15 August 2019 - 04:56 AM, said:

SpiritFox, thank you very much for that.  Reading your analysis of the batplane almost makes me salivate to fly it.  :playing:

 

For all who gave input here, thank you as well.  The various angles of discussion are fascinating.  This is still a hard choice for me for a variety of reasons.  The batplane would give me something other than the Fury to fly at Tier IX, and I really don't enjoy flying the Fury.  (The Banshee is another matter. . . .:izmena: )  I currently don't have a Tier IX bomber, and the single bomb Tier VIII and X German ones that I do have I'm still working on finding the sweet spot with them.  I can't imagine that the Tier IX German would be any different.

the bat plane is fun at nine and the fury, big oof. dont be talkin smack bout the Banshee, it is a fantastic aircraft in this game. the ordnance is garbage don't use it and the gun power is a bit lacking, but the plane fly's so well. great speed and maneuver:great: if your having issue with the guns i recommend gas Operated action. I still have long guns on mine, but i really want to build up a new GOA for it. i switched out LGB for GOA on the XF 90 and it make the guns do silly amount of dmg and i can now more consistently "one pass" plane that i struggled with before, not 100% better, just more consistent.

 

the Ju 287 is a mini EF 131 same bombs same reload same play style. the only difference is stats aka less, cause tier 9, appearance and handling. great plane recommend getting the Ju 287



hoom #30 Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:48 AM

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Block Quote

 i will make a deal with you white widow.

 Ooh Stygian = WW18? I had totally failed to make that connection :hiding:

 

 

For my part I still haven't figured out how to deal with the Bomber Seeking Heavy bots so playing Bombers has become an excercise in frustration and annoyance as any lead I'd built up in the early part of the match gets thrown away after I get killed nearly instantly from the 2min to Squall Line counter until shortly after the Squall Line when I get perma-killed and my bots are left without my capping ability.

And its spread even down to T3 so not even the Blenheim or SB are safe anymore -> I've completely given up playing Bombers.

 

Meanwhile there is no such GA Seeking Missile bots and I can get along with doing my ground-pounding thing.


Edited by hoom, 16 August 2019 - 03:49 AM.

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

Captain_Underpants53 #31 Posted 16 August 2019 - 09:00 AM

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View Postdesert786, on 15 August 2019 - 09:58 PM, said:


i dont use gold consumables and i dont use mods. sure if i win some and i have a mission to do or event, i will use the stock i have. give WeeGee my hard earned money for some minuscule % boost, nope.

 

again with the mods, WHAT MODS? i know of aircraft skins and bot detector, neither of which i use. If you said this to me back when i played tank, then yes i used a lot of mods, Aslains mod pack had very many useful things. this game doesn't need mods and i dont need the hassle of updating or the possibility of making the game more unstable than it is.

 

neck you can even see in the screen shots my lack of gold and no gold consumables on the planes. granted both the planes in the background are not played very often

 

yeah i flight a lot and so do you. It part of the game. it increase your odd of winning and is enjoyable to play with others. playing solo is boring to me unless i have some challenge or goal i am working towards.

 

 

i will make a deal with you white widow. If you stop offering your heavily opinionated opinion and flaunting your "ego" i will as well. just so we are clear this mean not participating in the forums anymore.

 

the bat plane is fun at nine and the fury, big oof. dont be talkin smack bout the Banshee, it is a fantastic aircraft in this game. the ordnance is garbage don't use it and the gun power is a bit lacking, but the plane fly's so well. great speed and maneuver:great: if your having issue with the guns i recommend gas Operated action. I still have long guns on mine, but i really want to build up a new GOA for it. i switched out LGB for GOA on the XF 90 and it make the guns do silly amount of dmg and i can now more consistently "one pass" plane that i struggled with before, not 100% better, just more consistent.

 

the Ju 287 is a mini EF 131 same bombs same reload same play style. the only difference is stats aka less, cause tier 9, appearance and handling. great plane recommend getting the Ju 287


:child:


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qu33kKC #32 Posted 16 August 2019 - 01:58 PM

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desert786, to be clear, I love me the Banshee.  I signed up for this game to fly P-38 Lightnings, and I've continued the USA HF line right on up.  :izmena:

 

Stygian_Widow_Alchemist, dat second pic!!!  Out dueling Ziggy/Prenz is a feat in and of itself!  :honoring:



Stygian_Alchemist #33 Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:13 PM

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It's just Stygian_Alchemist... or Styg according to GrumpyReign =D 

Beating Zig/Prenz in any combination of planes can be a challenge. Thus when that battle happened last night I posted the screenshots. Perfect timing with everyone going on about how obsolete high tier GAA is. I was a little surprised I actually won that on the strength of my ground pounding instead of murdering air targets being half of it.

I will state unequivocally that I had to -work- for that win. Prior to T10 bombers I'd gotten lazy about my GAA game and my initial reaction was similar to others held here "Huh.. GAA suddenly became less." GAA were my first class in this game that I "got" and enjoyed though.. so I had to figure a way to make it competitive again and well, I did, at least with the German GAA. Took me a while to re-adjust my style with it and a lot of tinkering to manage to keep up with the cap speeds of a bomber.

I'll also admit I still can't find a way to make the IL-40P competitive/game carrying again.. but I'm working on it and where there's a will there's a way? Or... not... the Russian GAA feels like more a brick wall of "Umm. no. Bombers will stomp you and all the other planes will just peck at you until you're dead." That plane is just.. too slow.. ordnance is too slow to reload.. and the forward guns don't do so hot against armored targets.

Also, prior to the release of the T10 bombers I felt the IL-40P to be the stronger of the two T10 GAA. Odd little reversal there in my views.

P-38s were also part of why I started playing this game. That and the XP-58. Which I just finally got, after saving gold, a week or so ago. Fun little plane once you adjust to the stubby range of the guns. Generally ended up -not- a fan of the way the P-38s work in this game unfortunately.. but I loved the F7F, Pancake, F2H, and XF-90

qu33kKC #34 Posted Yesterday, 01:49 PM

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I'd like to express my thanks to ALL who provided insight on this issue.  It has been fascinating to see the variety of analysis that has been provided.

 

In the end, I just went and grabbed them both.  RIP 8 mil credits.  I took them out a few times last night, had a string of #1 in defeats in the GAA and a couple of fun games in the bat plane.  Looking forward to learning more about them in the pixel skies.  

 

in reply to Styg above.  I still love the P-38s, Pancake and Banshee.  I love the Pancake more now that I have the Special US guns on it, that don't overheat in 2 seconds like the previous long-barrels did.  The TigerCat and XF-90 are much less fun for me, although I have occasional good games in the TIgerCat.  The XF-90 I don't even WANT to take out.



Stygian_Alchemist #35 Posted Yesterday, 07:15 PM

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View Postqu33kKC, on 17 August 2019 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'd like to express my thanks to ALL who provided insight on this issue.  It has been fascinating to see the variety of analysis that has been provided.

 

In the end, I just went and grabbed them both.  RIP 8 mil credits.  I took them out a few times last night, had a string of #1 in defeats in the GAA and a couple of fun games in the bat plane.  Looking forward to learning more about them in the pixel skies.  

 

in reply to Styg above.  I still love the P-38s, Pancake and Banshee.  I love the Pancake more now that I have the Special US guns on it, that don't overheat in 2 seconds like the previous long-barrels did.  The TigerCat and XF-90 are much less fun for me, although I have occasional good games in the TIgerCat.  The XF-90 I don't even WANT to take out.

Can't blame ya for just going ahead and getting both. Both are soooo worth it. Hope to see you in the skies!!

Fair enough on the TigerCat and the XF-90 is a prickly beast of a plane to tame. I've been flying her for a long while now and she still likes to remind me that I only fly within what she permits or she punishes me heavily. I just am addicted to the madness of her speed and acceleration.



GrumpyReign #36 Posted Yesterday, 08:59 PM

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View Postqu33kKC, on 16 August 2019 - 06:58 AM, said:

desert786, to be clear, I love me the Banshee.  I signed up for this game to fly P-38 Lightnings, and I've continued the USA HF line right on up.  :izmena:

 

Stygian_Widow_Alchemist, dat second pic!!!  Out dueling Ziggy/Prenz is a feat in and of itself!  :honoring:

 

that match was a beautiful hell.. it was that close or closer the entire time. if zieg hadn't gone down after squall, i'm not sure it'd have gone the same way.


Yes, I am an A-S-S.

 

I am welcomed in the home of ravens and other scavengers in the wake of warriors.
I am friend to carrion crows and wolves.
I am carry me and kill with me and die with me where the road ends.
I am not the honeyed promise of length of life in years to come,
I am the iron promise of never being a slave.





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