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Deciballistic #1 Posted 12 August 2019 - 05:25 PM

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My question is regarding the combined European tech tree that they recently put together.  On the surface it seems OK by giving the players the ability to change nations and be able to have more planes to train pilots (I made the tier 3 plane I just got a Japanese trainer).  I am concerned that this may also be WG giving up on creating tech tree lines for other nations now.  I have seen other posts about possible tech tree lines for nations that don't currently have one and I can't help but wonder why WG wouldn't or can't put in another nation.  I am sure at some point it comes down to money and how much it would cost to license planes as well as how much WG makes on selling premium planes compared to allowing planes to be researched in a tech tree line.

 

So just curious how everyone else feels about the combined tech tree now, knowing that it probably means no individual tech tree lines for those countries.



pyantoryng #2 Posted 12 August 2019 - 05:56 PM

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As things stand, the respective national crews are completely wasted when the nation is changed out, and the national crew are so limited that it is nearly pointless to keep them, as if a permanently trained crew for premium plane, useless outside of them and very limited in what they can use (although this more or less only apply to existing French crew as French premium had been existing for years now).

 

Maybe it will only apply to premiums and there may be nation-locked combined tree later on...although that will be a mess if the nations are to be mixed and matched along the way.

 

There's still the matter of Italian planes...



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BB3_Oregon_Steel #3 Posted 12 August 2019 - 07:40 PM

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View PostDeciballistic, on 12 August 2019 - 09:25 AM, said:

My question is regarding the combined European tech tree that they recently put together.  On the surface it seems OK by giving the players the ability to change nations and be able to have more planes to train pilots (I made the tier 3 plane I just got a Japanese trainer).  I am concerned that this may also be WG giving up on creating tech tree lines for other nations now.  I have seen other posts about possible tech tree lines for nations that don't currently have one and I can't help but wonder why WG wouldn't or can't put in another nation.  I am sure at some point it comes down to money and how much it would cost to license planes as well as how much WG makes on selling premium planes compared to allowing planes to be researched in a tech tree line.

 

So just curious how everyone else feels about the combined tech tree now, knowing that it probably means no individual tech tree lines for those countries.

 

I share your concerns.  

 

WG can of course put in another traditional national tech tree lines, the French and Italians are obvious choices but you might be able to do something with a Pan-European branch or potentially a Chinese branch if they decided to do so. 

 

I don't, however think they will. WG is trying to make money off this platform and it costs a good deal to develop and model and entire tech tree and for WG to put that effort in, they have to believe they will make significantly more money for their efforts. The fact is that the number of players who play WOWPs regularly is severely limited hence any release has to be conservative, something WG knows they'll be able to make money on and which limits their exposure to risk, just in case their wrong. 

 

Releasing a couple of premium planes is far less risky than releasing an entire tech tree.  The cost to WG for doing so is reasonably small, far less than a full tech tree of planes would require.  People have to pay to get them rather than have the ability to earn them for free.  Really I see WG taking this approach for the foreseeable future or until there is a sharp uptick in the number of players that would make larger releases more attractive to them. 


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Sink_Stuff #4 Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:59 PM

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View PostDeciballistic, on 12 August 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

My question is regarding the combined European tech tree that they recently put together.  On the surface it seems OK by giving the players the ability to change nations and be able to have more planes to train pilots (I made the tier 3 plane I just got a Japanese trainer).  I am concerned that this may also be WG giving up on creating tech tree lines for other nations now.  I have seen other posts about possible tech tree lines for nations that don't currently have one and I can't help but wonder why WG wouldn't or can't put in another nation.  I am sure at some point it comes down to money and how much it would cost to license planes as well as how much WG makes on selling premium planes compared to allowing planes to be researched in a tech tree line.

 

So just curious how everyone else feels about the combined tech tree now, knowing that it probably means no individual tech tree lines for those countries.

 

Think about it like this. What is a tech tree? Why is it more important than a stand alone premium of a nation with only lets say 3 planes in it scattered across various tiers? The reality is that it isn't any better at all to have a tree. Instead, it's actually worse to have a tree. Why? A tree is a logical progression of a class or specific design of aircraft logic. But is this how airplanes are actually designed? No, not really. Instead, each specific plane is designed to meet a specific need or to counter a specific threat. This is why even now some planes of a certain tree behave rather differently than other planes of the same tree.

 

As well, A tree implies a specific logic to a line. Most planes of the line need to be designed so that playing them are similar in pilot skills and aircraft tactics. However, this is not how planes are designed. Tactics change, abilities change, different skills are needed for new roles and missions of even sometimes the same aircraft as the service life of an aircraft no longer meets it's original design intent. For instance the P40 warhawk was designed as a fighter airplane. It was only later that it was designated as a multi role aircraft and even later still as only a ground attack aircraft. So if the game was to follow actual history of the design over time and use of the P40 warhawk it would actually be in 3 different trees at the same time or just a tier or two apart. 

 

So, forcing the game designers to create trees is actually counter to history, aircraft specific design differences per model, and artificially constrains and limits the abilities and characteristics of a plane and where it can be placed in the tech tree. To have the multi role P40 it had to be placed in an entirely different nation than the US to prevent it from being in two separate trees at the same or similar tier within the same nation. Imagine how confusing this would be to a new player to see three different P40 warhawks in the same match, one being a multi roll, the other being a fighter, and still a third being a ground attack aircraft each one having very different flight characteristics and behaviors as well as armament and missions.

 

So it is actually better for the player, accuracy to history, and game play itself to not put into the game any more tech trees at all. But to simply add planes where needed when needed as stand alone aircraft. People are already frustrated when they learn that a favored plane from history is not fulfilling the role or playing to the characteristics that it historically had because of artificial national flavors and tech tree constraints. the European nation to me is one of the best game design ideas that the company has created. It helps the players and the designers to better meet all the goals that a somewhat based on history period game needs to meet for many various reasons. 


Edited by Sink_Stuff, 12 August 2019 - 09:01 PM.


wylleEcoyote #5 Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:42 PM

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Well honestly after World war 2 who was left that had money to spend on designing warplanes that doesnt already have a tech tree?

German tier 8 and up consists almost entirely of paper jetplanes or prototypes or variations of them beyond the Me 262, the Me 109 TL, and Me 209a. 
Japan is in a similar boat but there are a few lines that have still not been explored (High altitude and Torpedo Bombers)  

France has a fully tricked out aviation industry even today. Its too bad that for tiers 5-8 it ceased to exist.
Spoiler

and primarily used post war military surplus to flesh out its air force until its own industry could get going again during the guided missile era and beyond.
Which is beyond the scope of this game.

Italy? made some pretty planes in the prewar period. And they haven't really afforded to continue afterwards.
The Swedes. they do have some surprises. But much like the French  the question arises whether if it is enough for a full tech tree? Or a full line not covered elsewhere? Not so much.

In theory you can cram them all together into a big european tree. 
Especially in a game where the Bf 109, Spitfire, Mustang, Fw 190 and Zero get stretched out anywhere across 3-4 tiers of play.
But instead of a tree it will look more like a funnel. Plenty of PreWar designs from across Europe in tiers 1-5 that instead of branching out, rapidly join together. 
Eventually you may only have two or three lines at tier 10.

Making them all fit within a consistent "national flavor" is pretty tricky beyond,
"General Purpose MultiRole Aircraft to support/surpress a local insurgency, for export to former colonies, (When they are no longer top of the line)" .
With a smattering of Air superiority or Bomber/GAA Interceptors in that mix.

In the end its that For Export part that best defines this otherwise loosely related group.
So the whole "spend credits equivalent to a tech plane Specialization to switch a premium plane to another nation for crew training" makes sense.
 

Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is very hit or miss. Usually I start on the right track and then a make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 
And yet it doesn't stop me from speculation.

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Light Fighters:  XP-31, Model 81A-1, P-40, P-51A, P-39N-1, XF15C, DH.100 F1, Bf 109 B / E / E-3, Me209v4, Me209 A
Multi-Roles: F11C-2, F4F, P-47B, Fw 56, He 112, Fw 190 A-1 / A-5 / D

Heavy Fighters: P-38 F/J,  XP-58, Tu-1, Bf 110 C-6, SE 100, Me 410, Do 335 A-1, Me 262

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BB3_Oregon_Steel #6 Posted 13 August 2019 - 02:42 AM

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Well just for full disclosure I actually have constructed full lines of aircraft for France, at least insofar as fighters are concerned without having to resort to lend lease or foreign designs so it can be done. 

 

I do have to disagree on the idea of technical progression which seems to preoccupy a good deal of thought on this forum. 

 

I would submit that Tiers and Tech Trees are not, from a game design perspective, a method of showing the technical progression from one similar aircraft to the next.  The purpose of a Tier within a tech tree is to group aircraft with similar effectiveness into a group so that highly advanced aircraft don't get matched up with biplanes.  The Tier system is essentially designed to pit contemporaries together as they might have encountered each other in real life, it really has no other deeper purpose. 

 

From a game design perspective, Tech Trees are important in 'free to play" games because they spark the interest of players, helping getting them involved in the game so they will be more willing to invest in that game and thereby product revenue.  Premiums, cammo, ammunition all those other little goodies are what drives the profits and it is the Tech Tree aircraft that provide the launching pad.  

 

There are of course dangers in not having signficant nations represented in a Tech Tree.  For example, I want to fly French aircraft so I download WOWPs and see what they have to offer.  Is there a group of French aircraft I can immerse myself in, something I can work and progress on all the way to my "free" Tier 10 plane?  

 

Nope, not here.  None of the French aircraft represented in this game are particularly significant historically, they are mostly just weird oddballs. Worse, all of them are Premiums so not only do I not get access to the aircraft a really want to fly in the line, I also have to reach into my bank account and pay for the privilege.

 

So, what can I do instead?  Well I can go in search for other games which shall not be mentioned which do have French aircraft I can play for FREE.  Scratch one WOWps customer. 

 

Let's say instead that I play WOWps but I want to play significant French or Italian aircraft which simply are not represented here.  Once again I can go in search of that other game and maybe I find I like that other game a lot better, or I simply invest a lot of my time in it which means money which might have been flowing into WG's coffers is now diverted to a competitor's. 

 

In business, this is generally regarded as a bad thing.

 

The failure to continue to expand other tech trees leaves WOWPs vulnerable to bleeding customers to other platforms and it's hard to argue that hasn't already happened *listens to the robo crickets chirp*.  So no, for the game, not having tech trees for significant nations harms the game, impedes WG's attempts to revive it and puts a cap on what the game can offer in the future.   Worse, it puts WG at a competitive disadvantage which may eventually lead to the abandonment of the WOWPs platform altogether. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel, 13 August 2019 - 02:42 AM.

"Don't mess with me because I can squish you like a bug, that is If I should decide to notice your existence in the first place".  

 

Yes, it's haughty and its arrogant but you're a battleship with 16 inch guns and Britannia Rules the Waves.  Maybe a bit of arrogance in this case is appropriate.  


GrumpyReign #7 Posted 13 August 2019 - 03:57 AM

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View PostBB3_Oregon_Steel, on 12 August 2019 - 07:42 PM, said:

Well just for full disclosure I actually have constructed full lines of aircraft for France, at least insofar as fighters are concerned without having to resort to lend lease or foreign designs so it can be done. 

 

I do have to disagree on the idea of technical progression which seems to preoccupy a good deal of thought on this forum. 

 

I would submit that Tiers and Tech Trees are not, from a game design perspective, a method of showing the technical progression from one similar aircraft to the next.  The purpose of a Tier within a tech tree is to group aircraft with similar effectiveness into a group so that highly advanced aircraft don't get matched up with biplanes.  The Tier system is essentially designed to pit contemporaries together as they might have encountered each other in real life, it really has no other deeper purpose. 

 

From a game design perspective, Tech Trees are important in 'free to play" games because they spark the interest of players, helping getting them involved in the game so they will be more willing to invest in that game and thereby product revenue.  Premiums, cammo, ammunition all those other little goodies are what drives the profits and it is the Tech Tree aircraft that provide the launching pad.  

 

There are of course dangers in not having signficant nations represented in a Tech Tree.  For example, I want to fly French aircraft so I download WOWPs and see what they have to offer.  Is there a group of French aircraft I can immerse myself in, something I can work and progress on all the way to my "free" Tier 10 plane?  

 

Nope, not here.  None of the French aircraft represented in this game are particularly significant historically, they are mostly just weird oddballs. Worse, all of them are Premiums so not only do I not get access to the aircraft a really want to fly in the line, I also have to reach into my bank account and pay for the privilege.

 

So, what can I do instead?  Well I can go in search for other games which shall not be mentioned which do have French aircraft I can play for FREE.  Scratch one WOWps customer. 

 

Let's say instead that I play WOWps but I want to play significant French or Italian aircraft which simply are not represented here.  Once again I can go in search of that other game and maybe I find I like that other game a lot better, or I simply invest a lot of my time in it which means money which might have been flowing into WG's coffers is now diverted to a competitor's. 

 

In business, this is generally regarded as a bad thing.

 

The failure to continue to expand other tech trees leaves WOWPs vulnerable to bleeding customers to other platforms and it's hard to argue that hasn't already happened *listens to the robo crickets chirp*.  So no, for the game, not having tech trees for significant nations harms the game, impedes WG's attempts to revive it and puts a cap on what the game can offer in the future.   Worse, it puts WG at a competitive disadvantage which may eventually lead to the abandonment of the WOWPs platform altogether. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i don't disagree with your assessment on principle, but i question how much it affects things in practice. to wit, your french example: how much would that very specific desire hold up against the more general consideration of playability of the game in general?


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Sink_Stuff #8 Posted 13 August 2019 - 04:34 AM

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View PostBB3_Oregon_Steel, on 13 August 2019 - 02:42 AM, said:

Well just for full disclosure I actually have constructed full lines of aircraft for France, at least insofar as fighters are concerned without having to resort to lend lease or foreign designs so it can be done. 

 

I do have to disagree on the idea of technical progression which seems to preoccupy a good deal of thought on this forum. 

 

I would submit that Tiers and Tech Trees are not, from a game design perspective, a method of showing the technical progression from one similar aircraft to the next.  The purpose of a Tier within a tech tree is to group aircraft with similar effectiveness into a group so that highly advanced aircraft don't get matched up with biplanes.  The Tier system is essentially designed to pit contemporaries together as they might have encountered each other in real life, it really has no other deeper purpose. 

 

From a game design perspective, Tech Trees are important in 'free to play" games because they spark the interest of players, helping getting them involved in the game so they will be more willing to invest in that game and thereby product revenue.  Premiums, cammo, ammunition all those other little goodies are what drives the profits and it is the Tech Tree aircraft that provide the launching pad.  

 

There are of course dangers in not having signficant nations represented in a Tech Tree.  For example, I want to fly French aircraft so I download WOWPs and see what they have to offer.  Is there a group of French aircraft I can immerse myself in, something I can work and progress on all the way to my "free" Tier 10 plane?  

 

Nope, not here.  None of the French aircraft represented in this game are particularly significant historically, they are mostly just weird oddballs. Worse, all of them are Premiums so not only do I not get access to the aircraft a really want to fly in the line, I also have to reach into my bank account and pay for the privilege.

 

So, what can I do instead?  Well I can go in search for other games which shall not be mentioned which do have French aircraft I can play for FREE.  Scratch one WOWps customer. 

 

Let's say instead that I play WOWps but I want to play significant French or Italian aircraft which simply are not represented here.  Once again I can go in search of that other game and maybe I find I like that other game a lot better, or I simply invest a lot of my time in it which means money which might have been flowing into WG's coffers is now diverted to a competitor's. 

 

In business, this is generally regarded as a bad thing.

 

The failure to continue to expand other tech trees leaves WOWPs vulnerable to bleeding customers to other platforms and it's hard to argue that hasn't already happened *listens to the robo crickets chirp*.  So no, for the game, not having tech trees for significant nations harms the game, impedes WG's attempts to revive it and puts a cap on what the game can offer in the future.   Worse, it puts WG at a competitive disadvantage which may eventually lead to the abandonment of the WOWPs platform altogether. 

 

While your argument has logic in principle. It simply doesn't have weight. There has never been a significant voice from the player base asking for, or even demanding a French line. So your premise that players leave the game because it doesn't have a French or Italian line simply has no basis in any significant numbers. Instead, players have always argued for the most significant aircraft from WW2, such as bombers, the Hellcat and other historically significant aircraft to WW2 that still are not in the game for whatever reason. 

 

But more importantly, the biggest reason why people don't play this game is because of the game play itself. It's a flight game in a small sandbox, that has questionable physics, frustrating game play, and winner take all mechanics. Adding a French line, that none in large numbers have ever demanded will not significantly affect the player base at all. So suggesting that people leave this game in droves simply because Italian or French planes are not in a tech tree to tier ten in the game is an argument that has no basis in reality in any significant way. The majority of people who don't play this game have left it for other reasons and there are years of "I'm leaving" posts that we could go through for evidence of why they left. I would venture a guess that in all the years this game has been live that not even five of the people who posted that they were leaving stated that not having a French or Italian tech tree was the reason why they left. 


Edited by Sink_Stuff, 13 August 2019 - 04:36 AM.


CorvusCorvax #9 Posted 13 August 2019 - 04:35 AM

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View PostGrumpyReign, on 13 August 2019 - 03:57 AM, said:

 

i don't disagree with your assessment on principle, but i question how much it affects things in practice. to wit, your french example: how much would that very specific desire hold up against the more general consideration of playability of the game in general?


If the plane flies well, then you will find people to play it.  Italian, French, Swedish - if it flies well, people will fly them.  I'd love to have a bunch of planes in the Swedish tree, for example.  Weird, cool, fun.

 



BB3_Oregon_Steel #10 Posted 13 August 2019 - 11:28 PM

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View PostSink_Stuff, on 12 August 2019 - 08:34 PM, said:

 

While your argument has logic in principle. It simply doesn't have weight. There has never been a significant voice from the player base asking for, or even demanding a French line. So your premise that players leave the game because it doesn't have a French or Italian line simply has no basis in any significant numbers. Instead, players have always argued for the most significant aircraft from WW2, such as bombers, the Hellcat and other historically significant aircraft to WW2 that still are not in the game for whatever reason. 

 

But more importantly, the biggest reason why people don't play this game is because of the game play itself. It's a flight game in a small sandbox, that has questionable physics, frustrating game play, and winner take all mechanics. Adding a French line, that none in large numbers have ever demanded will not significantly affect the player base at all. So suggesting that people leave this game in droves simply because Italian or French planes are not in a tech tree to tier ten in the game is an argument that has no basis in reality in any significant way. The majority of people who don't play this game have left it for other reasons and there are years of "I'm leaving" posts that we could go through for evidence of why they left. I would venture a guess that in all the years this game has been live that not even five of the people who posted that they were leaving stated that not having a French or Italian tech tree was the reason why they left. 

 

Well I suppose that would make me a minority of one ... or not.  I'm sure there are other players out there who would feel the same and I kind of think people have gotten tired of asking for new lines in a game which, until ver 2.0 arrived, was essentially dead and just waiting for WG to shut the lights off. 

 

So, for those who think like me, yes, I have strongly considered going out and checking out alternative sites just so I can fly some of those French and Italian planes that I've always been interested in.  It's almost a guarantee that at some point, especially when it becomes clear that WG has no intention of including those lines in this game, that I will go out and take a look because if I want to fly those planes, I will have no other choice. 

 

So, you can't say that you don't know anyone who feels the way I do, you know at least one.  You can of course make the mistake of believing that I am the only one that feels this way but I suspect you'd be wrong about that if you did. 

 

Here's kind of the point.  Once I become convinced that WG has no intention of releasing any further tech trees, I will be forced to look elsewhere to find a system where I can find them.  If you assume that a certain percentage of the player population has similar desires, then it follows that they either have or will eventually go looking for alternatives and however you want to slice it, that is bad news for WG.  

 

The only question is, how bad is that news.  If it's just me, it's not worth mentioning, if it's 1% of the player base, that's not much more, if it's 10% or 20% then it's a real problem.  Or you could reasonably make the assumption that all those who were going to leave have already left which might explain why everyone here is flying against bots rather than people. 

 

We can of course argue about the degree that this problem exists, but to deny that it exists isn't really much in question, or at least it shouldn't be. This is why Tech Tree construction and promotions are such a BIG deal in Tanks and Ships.  To assume the same dynamic doesn't exist here isn't really all that reasonable, at least not to me. 

 

I make the assumption that because I feel a certain way, there's others who feel the same.  That doesn't mean I don't recognize that other viewpoints exist and think differently on the subject, I just believe that those that think as I do represent a useful and important percentage of the population, a population that WG risks being losing in part or in whole and has to varying degrees, already lost. 

 


Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel, 13 August 2019 - 11:30 PM.

"Don't mess with me because I can squish you like a bug, that is If I should decide to notice your existence in the first place".  

 

Yes, it's haughty and its arrogant but you're a battleship with 16 inch guns and Britannia Rules the Waves.  Maybe a bit of arrogance in this case is appropriate.  


Sink_Stuff #11 Posted 13 August 2019 - 11:46 PM

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View PostBB3_Oregon_Steel, on 13 August 2019 - 11:28 PM, said:

 

Well I suppose that would make me a minority of one ... or not.  I'm sure there are other players out there who would feel the same and I kind of think people have gotten tired of asking for new lines in a game which, until ver 2.0 arrived, was essentially dead and just waiting for WG to shut the lights off. 

 

So, for those who think like me, yes, I have strongly considered going out and checking out alternative sites just so I can fly some of those French and Italian planes that I've always been interested in.  It's almost a guarantee that at some point, especially when it becomes clear that WG has no intention of including those lines in this game, that I will go out and take a look because if I want to fly those planes, I will have no other choice. 

 

So, you can't say that you don't know anyone who feels the way I do, you know at least one.  You can of course make the mistake of believing that I am the only one that feels this way but I suspect you'd be wrong about that if you did. 

 

Here's kind of the point.  Once I become convinced that WG has no intention of releasing any further tech trees, I will be forced to look elsewhere to find a system where I can find them.  If you assume that a certain percentage of the player population has similar desires, then it follows that they either have or will eventually go looking for alternatives and however you want to slice it, that is bad news for WG.  

 

The only question is, how bad is that news.  If it's just me, it's not worth mentioning, if it's 1% of the player base, that's not much more, if it's 10% or 20% then it's a real problem.  Or you could reasonably make the assumption that all those who were going to leave have already left which might explain why everyone here is flying against bots rather than people. 

 

We can of course argue about the degree that this problem exists, but to deny that it exists isn't really much in question, or at least it shouldn't be. This is why Tech Tree construction and promotions are such a BIG deal in Tanks and Ships.  To assume the same dynamic doesn't exist here isn't really all that reasonable, at least not to me. 

 

I make the assumption that because I feel a certain way, there's others who feel the same.  That doesn't mean I don't recognize that other viewpoints exist and think differently on the subject, I just believe that those that think as I do represent a useful and important percentage of the population, a population that WG risks being losing in part or in whole and has to varying degrees, already lost. 

 

 

Well the reality is that Wargaming doesn't actually care about any of us anyway. In fact, 2.0 itself proves that. It was rather universal that the player base before 2.0 was most against what they showed players in the 2.0 game. Yet, they were willing to lose all of the 1.9 player base by rather changing the game completely in the hope of gaining new players. Well, all it proved was that the company should have listened to the old player base from the very beginning. The new players they hoped for never showed and for a time, a sizable number the hard cores that remained even left the game. Now, it's a hodge podge of people leaving and returning. People once again checking out the game for a while but mostly never staying for long. 

 

In the end we have a company that has developed this game, not once, but twice and has seen that the public simply doesn't like it. At this point what manager of any company would throw more development money at it? Honestly I am surprised that they haven't thrown in the towel completely on this game yet all things considered. So no, I certainly would not expect them to dump a lot of time and money into a new tech tree line at this point. Especially not for a nation that most people barely even know existed as an air force in WW2. Putting any hope at all in this game honestly is rather barking up the wrong tree I am afraid at this point. 


Edited by Sink_Stuff, 13 August 2019 - 11:47 PM.


Stygian_Alchemist #12 Posted 14 August 2019 - 12:42 AM

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Personally, I think the whole "national" tech tree concept was a heinous idiocy.

They should have just separated everything into class and tier and added -whatever- nation and -whatever- planes. Which, I'd argue seems to be what they're -slowly- shifting to. Leaving pilots not nation-locked, but class-locked would have also made more sense (premiums still being exceptions).

Why do I say that the concept of national tech trees was bad?

Because not every nation fielded a full complement of every type. Not enough to represent everything to T10 that is, that is a lot of planes. Some other countries fielded -way- more than a "full tech tree" and some countries just kept using what they had because it was what they had.


So, personally.. I think they ought to dump the nation as part of the tech tree... just separate things by class and tier. all fighters in their own tab, all bombers, all mrfs, etc. all of them their own individual tech trees. Doesn't even need to change the tiers, just make up whatever arbritrary progressions and connections you want to slot stuff in... -or- just make each tier researchable once you've unlocked something on the previous tier in that class and there be no "direct" connections.. just "oh.. look.. I can unlock tier 4 fighters and start earning XP for and researching each of these!!".
To be clear, nation should still be described and marked with markings/etc. It just shouldn't matter for researching up and down tier purposes or for them to add planes. Being able to add planes one or three at a time and just shove them into a class would allow for far more flexibility.

 



BB3_Oregon_Steel #13 Posted 15 August 2019 - 12:15 AM

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View PostSink_Stuff, on 13 August 2019 - 03:46 PM, said:

 

Well the reality is that Wargaming doesn't actually care about any of us anyway. In fact, 2.0 itself proves that. It was rather universal that the player base before 2.0 was most against what they showed players in the 2.0 game. Yet, they were willing to lose all of the 1.9 player base by rather changing the game completely in the hope of gaining new players. Well, all it proved was that the company should have listened to the old player base from the very beginning. The new players they hoped for never showed and for a time, a sizable number the hard cores that remained even left the game. Now, it's a hodge podge of people leaving and returning. People once again checking out the game for a while but mostly never staying for long. 

 

In the end we have a company that has developed this game, not once, but twice and has seen that the public simply doesn't like it. At this point what manager of any company would throw more development money at it? Honestly I am surprised that they haven't thrown in the towel completely on this game yet all things considered. So no, I certainly would not expect them to dump a lot of time and money into a new tech tree line at this point. Especially not for a nation that most people barely even know existed as an air force in WW2. Putting any hope at all in this game honestly is rather barking up the wrong tree I am afraid at this point. 

 

Ok, first faulty assumption ... "Especially not for a nation that most people barely even know existed as an air force in WW2" 

 

Pretty much everyone who has done any real study of WWII airforce's knows about the French and the Italians, the De.520, MS.405 CR 42, Macchi 202, Re .2005 are all well know aircraft just to name a few.  If you had said the Romanian's or the Czech's that would be understandable but the French and Italians ... well I'm afraid not knowing about them is sort of like someone telling you that Columbus discovered Ohio in 1776 and not knowing why that is just plain wrong. 

 

Second faulty assumption ... "Wargaming doesn't actually care about any of us anyway"   Well it's sort of like Carriers in ships.  It was obvious to WG that they couldn't remain viable as they were so they made a decision to attempt to expand the reach and attraction of the class in order to attempt to revive it with the other alternative being to scrap it entirely. 

 

Same thing here, it was either try something new or scrap the game, just that simple.  So ... it might have been correct to say that WG was willing to sacrifice the participation of some players in order to attract enough new players to revive the game. They weren't going to necessarily cater to the desires of the more entrenched existing players who were still with the game as it entered it's death spiral because it was frankly obvious there weren't enough of them to save the game and make it viable.  

 

So no, WG made a decision to benefit the game rather than a particular group of players who were not going to save the game regardless. You would seem to be one of those. 

 

On the other hand, WG did care about players like me and designed the game to be more enjoyable and entertaining to players like me and with the hope that a significant percentage of the existing player base would like the changes enough to remain with the game.  Know what? It worked.  WOWPs isn't heading to the trash can any time soon, they continue to make improvements, introduce new content and while I'd like them to do better, they are breathing life back into the game.  

 

So, if you believe WG doesn't care about you in particular, you may be right.  It's probably more accurate to say that they don't care about you enough to stay with 1.9 at the cost of killing the game entirely, but if you want to say that you feel as if your needs weren't catered to, I can certainly see why you might feel that way.  

 

This however ignores the fact that 2.0 does cater to other players, me being one of those. In fact, the only reason I am here is because of 2.0.  I do like the game better than I did 1.9 and earlier versions but more importantly, 2.0 signaled to me that WG hadn't given up on the game and that my investment in time would be worthwhile as I wouldn't be sinking my effort into a sinking ship (or crashing airplane).  WOWPs needs me and those like me to grow and prosper, not so much those who are firmly wedded to earlier versions, which by any reasonable measure, were a complete and utter failure and face plant of epic proportions (at least from a business perspective). 

 

So yes, WG does care about the game and does care about how the players feel about the game, they simply can not cater to all groups and if you are in one of the groups that is not getting what you want, then you're going to feel as you do.  The mistake here is expanding that analogy to encompass the entire or even the majority of the population just because it is your perspective. 

 

 


Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel, 15 August 2019 - 10:00 PM.

"Don't mess with me because I can squish you like a bug, that is If I should decide to notice your existence in the first place".  

 

Yes, it's haughty and its arrogant but you're a battleship with 16 inch guns and Britannia Rules the Waves.  Maybe a bit of arrogance in this case is appropriate.  


Mercsn #14 Posted 15 August 2019 - 02:20 AM

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The game engine probably can't handle the high ROF french MGs as it is.

All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Captain_Underpants53 #15 Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:11 AM

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View PostBB3_Oregon_Steel, on 14 August 2019 - 07:15 PM, said:

 

Ok, first faulty assumption ... "Especially not for a nation that most people barely even know existed as an air force in WW2" 

 

Pretty much everyone who has done any real study of WWII airforce's knows about the French and the Italians, the De.520, MS.405 CR 42, Macchi 202, Re .2005 are all well know aircraft just to name a few.  If you had said the Romanian's or the Czech's that would be understandable but the French and Italians ... well I'm afraid not knowing about them is sort of like someone telling you that Columbus discovered Ohio in 1776 and not knowing why that is just plain wrong. 

 

Second faulty assumption ... "Wargaming doesn't actually care about any of us anyway"   Well it's sort of like Carriers in ships.  It was obvious to WG that they couldn't remain viable as they were so they made a decision to attempt to expand the reach and attraction of the class in order to attempt to revive it with the other alternative being to scrap it entirely. 

 

Same thing here, it was either try something new or scrap the game, just that simple.  So ... it might have been correct to say that WG was willing to sacrifice the participation of some players in order to attract enough new players to revive the game. They weren't going to necessarily cater to the desires of those players who were still with the game and it entered it's death spiral because it was frankly obvious there weren't enough of them to save the game and make it viable.  

 

So no, WG made a decision to benefit the game rather than a particular group of players who were not going to save the game regardless. You would apparently be one of those. 

 

On the other hand, WG did care about players like me and designed the game to be more enjoyable and entertaining to players like me and with the hope that a signficant percentage of the existing player base would remain with the game.  Know what, it worked.  WOWPs isn't heading to the trash can any time soon, they continue to make improvements, introduce new content and while I'd like them to do better, they are breathing life back into the game.  

 

So, if you believe WG doesn't care about you in particular, you may be right.  It's probably more accurate to say that they don't care about you enough to stay with 1.9 at the cost of killing the game entirely, but if you want to say that you feel as if your needs weren't catered to, I can certainly see why you might feel that way.  

 

This however ignores the fact that 2.0 does cater to other players, me being one of those. In fact, the only reason I am here is because of 2.0.  I do like the game better than I did 1.9 and earlier versions but more importantly, 2.0 signaled to me that WG hadn't given up on the game and that my investment in time would be worthwhile as I wouldn't be sinking my effort into a sinking ship (or crashing airplane).  WOWPs needs me and those like me to grow and prosper, not so much those who are firmly wedded to earlier versions, which by any reasonable measure, were a complete and utter failure and face plant of epic proportions (at least from a business perspective). 

 

So yes, WG does care about the game and does care about how the players feel about the game, they simply can not cater to all groups and if you are in one of the groups that is not getting what you want, then you're going to feel as you do.  The mistake here is expanding that analogy to encompass the entire or even the majority of the population just because it is your perspective. 

 

 


:medal:


MSgt, USAF, (ret)

pyantoryng #16 Posted 15 August 2019 - 02:19 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 15 August 2019 - 09:20 AM, said:

The game engine probably can't handle the high ROF french MGs as it is.

 

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WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
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Mercsn #17 Posted 22 August 2019 - 12:08 AM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 15 August 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

 

M61: Am I a joke to you?

 

That the gatling? I don't own it and have only been fired on by it once.  When I did get shot at by it, the engine wasn't modeling every shell. 


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

pyantoryng #18 Posted 22 August 2019 - 03:12 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 22 August 2019 - 07:08 AM, said:

 

That the gatling? I don't own it and have only been fired on by it once.  When I did get shot at by it, the engine wasn't modeling every shell. 

 

What did you mean by "high ROF french MGs" anyway? The one Cauldron and AD10C2 use that got 1450RPM? If it is, well, the ShKAS has 1500RPM and TSh-3 got 10 of those.

 

In any case, what are you trying to imply with HigH RoF French MGs and engine being unable to handle?



WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

wylleEcoyote #19 Posted 22 August 2019 - 08:29 PM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 22 August 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

 

What did you mean by "high ROF french MGs" anyway? The one Cauldron and AD10C2 use that got 1450RPM? If it is, well, the ShKAS has 1500RPM and TSh-3 got 10 of those.

 

In any case, what are you trying to imply with HigH RoF French MGs and engine being unable to handle?



Somewhere it has been mentioned that the game engine has difficulty crunching all the numbers in a timely manner when a lot of shots are taken at a target in a very short period of time. 
TO the point where hits dont register correctly or on time or in sync with what you see and hear in the game. in some cases it appears that the shots taken arent even calculated at all.

Usually when american aircraft are firing a stupendous amount of heavy machine guns at mid to high tiers.

But then there is a lot of math going on under the hood at any given moment and  things like packet loss dont help.
 

Sooo much math :(


 


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And yet it doesn't stop me from speculation.

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pyantoryng #20 Posted 23 August 2019 - 10:28 AM

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View PostwylleEcoyote, on 23 August 2019 - 03:29 AM, said:



Somewhere it has been mentioned that the game engine has difficulty crunching all the numbers in a timely manner when a lot of shots are taken at a target in a very short period of time. 
TO the point where hits dont register correctly or on time or in sync with what you see and hear in the game. in some cases it appears that the shots taken arent even calculated at all.

Usually when american aircraft are firing a stupendous amount of heavy machine guns at mid to high tiers.

But then there is a lot of math going on under the hood at any given moment and  things like packet loss dont help.
 

Sooo much math :(


 


No wonder why the 20mm revolvers ghost out...imagine the old tyme RoF...



WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.




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