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Another inexplicable loss

inexplicable loss

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CorvusCorvax #21 Posted 02 July 2019 - 09:16 PM

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View Postdesert786, on 02 July 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:


this is probably a bug.

 

remember back in the early days of 2.0, if you killed all the human players after squall the game would end in the team with the players left alive victory. it might be a left over of that bug. make a ticket with the replay.


I don't think it's a bug.  I think it's completely intentional.  If you, as the only human, get killed?  You lose.



Prenzlau #22 Posted 02 July 2019 - 09:22 PM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 02 July 2019 - 02:53 PM, said:

Fascinating screenshots were posted in the forums. Some of us saved those before they were taken down. It would very much seem you have a nemesis unless you were making false claims.

The reason for the post is really quite simple to anyone not constantly looking behind lamp-posts for people watching them or meaning in a trash bag floating in the breeze. 

The fact that you're not being answered is because engaging with your "questions" would be validating you. Why do that? Your questions weren't valid.

However, because I'm trying to be a bit nicer toward you at the request of someone I consider a friend... I am going to give the benefit of the doubt this -one- time (which I have no doubt will bite me) and consider that maybe you've missed the -blindingly- obvious. The post was to discuss a bug that has occurred more than once and try to gain the attention (hopefully) of blindfold.. who seems to be quite a bit better at getting our tickets answered and fixed than just filing a ticket usually is. It was to see if others were experiencing it as well or if maybe it was just a very strange UI bug. It was, in fact, a -very- self explanatory sort of post when you stop trying to apply concepts that were never brought up. Like.. Fairness. No one gives a flip about "fairness" as the subject of this thread. It -wasn't- the subject of the thread, it wasn't mentioned at all until -you-. That's why people think you're de-railing and trolling. That's why you get the finger pointed.

 

    Ya see, we can all be friends. A lot of human behavior simply comes down to attitude and less malleable opinions. Everyone has value and everyone has something to contribute. I think people focus hostility on me because they feel less accountable for their words and actions. In truth a person's integrity should be something they maintain and it should not be adjustable by using the excuse of another's behavior, otherwise it was never really integrity to begin with. 

 

    If by interjecting "fairness" into this thread, that was somehow divisive on my behalf, I really do not see that. I think the fairness issue is at the heart of player psychology in this game. I think I get the finger pointed at me regardless, and I think if you honestly thought about it, it is true. 

 

    Maybe I should be judged on my immediate actions versus any reputation that festers in the deep dark reaches of some anxious minds.

 

Prenzlau


Edited by Prenzlau, 02 July 2019 - 09:24 PM.

 

 

 

 


Mercsn #23 Posted 02 July 2019 - 09:26 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 02 July 2019 - 09:06 AM, said:

My last battle was me and 23 bots.  I capped four bases and got knocked out by the ubiquitous heavy bot after the squall line.  I always watch all the battles to the end and was happily watching my bots blowing away red bots while our considerable lead in points continued to grow.  Then, suddenly, the game ended with a score of 788 or so to around 650 for the reds.  There were still 6 blue bots to only 1 red bot.

 

DEFEAT!  Combat group destroyed!  WTH?!  This is the second battle I have lost like this in the last two weeks.   Why?

 

Both battles were myself and 23 bots.  Both battles I had a considerable lead.  Both battles ended the same way with more blue bots than red bots fighting but red won because Combat Group Destroyed.

 

Am I the only person who always watches the battles through to the end?  Or am I the only one who has this happen?  I've never noticed anyone else remark about this type of battle.  And it is a very memorable battle.

 

Please see my suggestion post about bots needing to cheat less.  I had one where I was starting on the good side of that one screwed up map where the one side ALWAYS wins.   Me and bots vs bots.  We had the CC and airfield the entire game and the bots or CC would flip another zone and so we were ahead until after squall when I got head-hunted by a bot and then my bots went to sleep, gave up the CC.  Red bots then took mid.  I "lost" after having been ahead most of the game, at the whim of the code/bots.   What's interesting about this is that the bots should never lose starting on that winning side (since they'll swarm).  My bots must have had their aggression setting lower than the Red bots.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

desert786 #24 Posted 02 July 2019 - 10:02 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 02 July 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:


I don't think it's a bug.  I think it's completely intentional.  If you, as the only human, get killed?  You lose.

it could be intended as a means of limiting match times.

 

as i said ticket with replay and see if they give you an answer. Posing this question to the peanut gallery will most likely not yield results



GeorgePatton #25 Posted 02 July 2019 - 11:19 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 10:59 AM, said:

    I've written before on how cognitive bias leads us to believe certain things about the game and how it plays. I've also written about the concept of fairness and the philosophical ideas behind it. Yet time again and again the person sitting in front of the "shell game" is mystified when they thought they knew where the pea was, then frustrated when WG lifts all the shells up to reveal that the pea is missing. 

 

The OP wasn't talking about whether something was 'fair' or 'not fair' - the OP was simply exhibiting an unusual and unexpected outcome of a match. Something that any new game-design student would understand is not a feature. For some reason, Wargaming tends to ignore these issues and pretend they don't exist.

 

 They expect fairness, like a game of chess when each side has exactly the same number of pieces and equidistant starting points. The match makers job is supposed to "match up" teams and the number of starting planes is the same, but that is it.

 

Again, basic game design says that the job of game designers is to try to make matches in PvP as equal as possible. This was the purpose of the 'gunlion MM' and every attempt at balancing teams ever since. If you think about it, all of the expansive changes to the game have been in the name of making it more 'balanced' and attractive to people with little or no knowledge of air combat (which the game is based on, obviously...). So to say that the MM is not supposed to try to make 'equal' teams is naïve at best, but much more likely to be a gaudy attempt at trolling.

 

There is no more equality beyond initial starting counts of planes. So sometimes a "bad session" of playing, is just that, a string of defeats which amounts to negative circumstances. I went 16-0 last night and I would say at least half those wins were really fortunate, some come from behind last second victories, some in which at one point it looked very grim for my team. So if you want to discuss luck, we can try and go down that path. Fairness? There is none. You have to make your own way in this game and fight and scratch out every victory. 

 

    The premise for the endless frustration and complaining is the idea that this game has to be fair, that everyone deserves a fair battle field. NO. Realize when you push that battle button, you are playing a game that is not fair and the next battle you go into might be very slanted towards or away from you. Complaining will do no good because that game is unfair for two potential reasons. First WG cannot make it any better because they either do not know how to or they do not have the motivation or will to do so. OR, secondly they want the battles to be "unfair" and seemingly random which actually provides a better excuse and cover for anything and everything that can and will go wrong. Since the player base gets "conditioned" to how the game behaves and has generally lower expectations. The idea is for you to "win" just enough, and if you have a bad night, you'll want to come back and prove that was just a bad night, and not what quality of a player you are. So add one more scenario on to the master list and what does that matter? It does not. 

 

You do realize Wargaming has previously said the goal of MM is to match battles in order to generally ensure everyone in the game has a 50% win rate, right?

 

    The game is flawed, period. So fly whatever you need to. Play however you need to. Team up with whomever you need to. Do whatever you need to so you have the best chance for winning. Otherwise you'll eventually get sifted into certain ruts and you'll lose your enthusiasm. Win at all costs and do not make apologies. It is NOT JUST YOU VERSUS THE OTHER TEAM, IT IS YOU VERSUS THIS GAME.

 

    Winning the psychological battle is the first step to actually being able to "win" in this game. 

 

Prenzlau

    

 

To, too, and two - please learn the differences and when to use which one - it would lend a little more credibility to your verbose pontifications.

 

View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 02:59 PM, said:

 

 

    What if it is not a bug? Why is everyone assuming that it is a bug?

 

Maybe because it's not something that has been announced as 'intended' and is not seen regularly or understood as a game mechanic?

 

What if one bot was just better than another bot? What if it was just destiny for one team to win? I guess saying "it's a bug" is just easier on some minds.

 

I think it is very important to extrapolate from the game and theorize versus blindly acquiesce to the simplest explanation of circumstance. So I am willing to explore and investigate this further.

 

Maybe take a class on game design? 

 

It would have been helpful if some screen shots would have been made and shared, but the video exists. Was it turned in to WG with a report?

 

I'm only trying to help.

 

There are better ways to help than derail threads and spew nonsense.

 

Prenzlau

 

PS- Widow, I saved some of your "rhetoric" from the battle last night for my signature, and I thought to myself, nah, I'm better than that.

 

 

 

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SkyWolf__WM #26 Posted 02 July 2019 - 11:24 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 02 July 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

 I had one where I was starting on the good side of that one screwed up map where the one side ALWAYS wins.  

I usually win on that map regardless of which side has the CC. There are strategies to employ depending on whether the CC is on your side or not. One side does not "always" win.  :amazed:


Edited by SkyWolf__WM, 02 July 2019 - 11:27 PM.

***************Fail to Suck****************

I shall use my aircraft and my skill to slightly inconvenience mine enemies.


trikke #27 Posted 03 July 2019 - 12:17 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 02 July 2019 - 05:16 PM, said:

I don't think it's a bug.  I think it's completely intentional.  If you, as the only human, get killed?  You lose.

 

i agree      completely plausible      not a bug, imo


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Stygian_Alchemist #28 Posted 03 July 2019 - 02:51 AM

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I've had several games tonight where I was dead at or near squall, the bots held it for me. Some of those games all the humans were dead and I watched until I got the victory as bots fought bots.

Corvus' theory isn't -at all- plausible. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Chuck_norris10 #29 Posted 03 July 2019 - 04:46 AM

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After a 3 win streak in my lbsh I black screened,disconnected from the server and had to log in with email and p.word. 

Next match I lost 800-0

No wonder I dont play as much as used to.


 

 


 

Bobby_Tables #30 Posted 03 July 2019 - 06:13 AM

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View PostChuck_norris10, on 02 July 2019 - 10:46 PM, said:

No wonder I dont play as much as used to.

 

I'm finishing watching The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai for the 11th time.  Tomorrow is Tropic Thunder for the 8th time.  July 4th, if it is raining, Kelley's Heroes, and I lost count years ago.  

 

I still play a few games per day, but get bored quickly.  

 

Token hoarding is all that keeps me playing.  That and the occasional fun battle.  Most of them are boring.  But I have a Token goal, and I am about 3/4ths there.  


Edited by Bobby_Tables, 03 July 2019 - 06:15 AM.


trikke #31 Posted 03 July 2019 - 11:06 AM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 02 July 2019 - 10:51 PM, said:

I've had several games tonight where I was dead at or near squall, the bots held it for me. Some of those games all the humans were dead and I watched until I got the victory as bots fought bots.

Corvus' theory isn't -at all- plausible. 

 

I enjoy watching the entire battle after I die, and I've personally haven't seen that


or...  I don't remember seeing that


both of my statements are equally plausible


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Stygian_Alchemist #32 Posted 03 July 2019 - 02:07 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 02 July 2019 - 10:16 PM, said:

 

You are kind of an unpleasant fellow.  :sceptic: 


It's funny to watch him project all his issues and inadequacies onto other people, his NPD is a fascinating case. He's also such a barky little chihuahua that I'm surprised he hasn't been fool enough to say the wrong thing to the wrong person face to face.

 


CorvusCorvax #33 Posted 03 July 2019 - 05:05 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 03 July 2019 - 04:16 AM, said:

 

You are kind of an unpleasant fellow.  :sceptic: 


Sometimes.  At other times, for folks who actually show that they deserve respect, I am respectful.  There are a LOT of people out there that don't grasp the correlation.  An observant person could draw conclusions. 



Reitousair #34 Posted 03 July 2019 - 07:02 PM

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This is actually an intended feature of the game to cut matches short when all players are dead, however it functions weirdly in WoWp.

 

When all players on both teams are dead, to my knowledge it takes the score of when all players were dead and use that to determine the match results. This can lead to situations where you win by points but you still lose because at the moment when all players were dead, your team was behind. It's very rare for this to happen however since all players need to be dead for a couple of minutes after squall line in order for it to force-end the match (or all of them return to hangar, either way it'll give the same score.)

 

So, in this case it's legitimately not a bug, it's a feature.


I do fly Chinese aircraft a fair amount so... *ahem*

CHINA NUMBAH WAN

 

I even made a custom skin for my IL-10M!

 


Stygian_Alchemist #35 Posted 03 July 2019 - 07:24 PM

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View PostReitousair, on 03 July 2019 - 01:02 PM, said:

This is actually an intended feature of the game to cut matches short when all players are dead, however it functions weirdly in WoWp.

 

When all players on both teams are dead, to my knowledge it takes the score of when all players were dead and use that to determine the match results. This can lead to situations where you win by points but you still lose because at the moment when all players were dead, your team was behind. It's very rare for this to happen however since all players need to be dead for a couple of minutes after squall line in order for it to force-end the match (or all of them return to hangar, either way it'll give the same score.)

 

So, in this case it's legitimately not a bug, it's a feature.

Evidence? Receipts? Proof?

I'll wait.

Either that, or perhaps Blindfold will grace us with an answer. Given, however, that I just had a match where I was the only human, died, and then sat there and watched my team duke it out til we won...... I can guess what BF will answer with.



Reitousair #36 Posted 03 July 2019 - 07:37 PM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 03 July 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

Evidence? Receipts? Proof?

I'll wait.

Either that, or perhaps Blindfold will grace us with an answer. Given, however, that I just had a match where I was the only human, died, and then sat there and watched my team duke it out til we won...... I can guess what BF will answer with.

 

There have been several threads of this before, I can't find all of the ones I've seen but I did find a couple of really old threads describing similar occurrences.

http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/52549-losing-on-a-supposed-win/

This thread has an image going over the post-battle chat after both sides saw this happen

http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/52370-wierd-shite-very-strange/

 

It could be a bug, maybe it's a feature that's bugging out since if all players leave a match it ends instantly, I guess it's hard to tell sometimes what's a bug and what's a feature.


I do fly Chinese aircraft a fair amount so... *ahem*

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I even made a custom skin for my IL-10M!

 


Stygian_Alchemist #37 Posted 03 July 2019 - 08:00 PM

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View PostReitousair, on 03 July 2019 - 01:37 PM, said:

 

There have been several threads of this before, I can't find all of the ones I've seen but I did find a couple of really old threads describing similar occurrences.

http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/52549-losing-on-a-supposed-win/

This thread has an image going over the post-battle chat after both sides saw this happen

http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/52370-wierd-shite-very-strange/

 

It could be a bug, maybe it's a feature that's bugging out since if all players leave a match it ends instantly, I guess it's hard to tell sometimes what's a bug and what's a feature.

That I'll agree with (Sometimes its quite hard to tell bug vs. feature). I keep -hoping- BF just comes in and settles this once and for all.. because honestly it would take two or three sentences to stop the discussion on her part and also to assuage a bunch of stuff. If it -is- a "feature" then it isn't functioning properly given the times I've sat there for 2, 3, 4 minutes waiting for an all bot match to finish so I get the extra thousand point kicker and if it is a bug (which is what I think) then it needs fixed ASAP.

I do wonder, given the amount of old code that events and etc. tend to recycle.. whether there wasn't something old in the code from a period when they experimented with the idea (which I think was suggested elsewhere in the thread)?

Also, I really actually appreciate you posting the links to previous discussions on the topic. 


Edited by White_Widow18, 03 July 2019 - 08:11 PM.


Captain_Rownd #38 Posted 04 July 2019 - 12:04 AM

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I enjoy playing airplanes brrrrrrooommmmm POW rataratarataratatattattat meeerrrrrrrroooowwwww  :child: 

 

Come on people, stop being such downers, this game is loads of fun. 


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trikke #39 Posted 04 July 2019 - 02:20 AM

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it's just so much easier to ignore than it is to engage
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GeorgePatton #40 Posted 04 July 2019 - 04:09 AM

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I guess what I'm advocating for is that we stop engaging - I'm not saying you have to be best friends, but I don't think we should be trading insults - that just makes the forum less productive and more off-putting to new players.

 

 

Cheers!
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