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Another inexplicable loss

inexplicable loss

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Captain_Underpants53 #1 Posted 02 July 2019 - 03:06 PM

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My last battle was me and 23 bots.  I capped four bases and got knocked out by the ubiquitous heavy bot after the squall line.  I always watch all the battles to the end and was happily watching my bots blowing away red bots while our considerable lead in points continued to grow.  Then, suddenly, the game ended with a score of 788 or so to around 650 for the reds.  There were still 6 blue bots to only 1 red bot.

 

DEFEAT!  Combat group destroyed!  WTH?!  This is the second battle I have lost like this in the last two weeks.   Why?

 

Both battles were myself and 23 bots.  Both battles I had a considerable lead.  Both battles ended the same way with more blue bots than red bots fighting but red won because Combat Group Destroyed.

 

Am I the only person who always watches the battles through to the end?  Or am I the only one who has this happen?  I've never noticed anyone else remark about this type of battle.  And it is a very memorable battle.


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losttwo #2 Posted 02 July 2019 - 03:45 PM

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Yes I have had it happen to me and I have also done it to all bot matches.

The only explanation I can consider or squirrel theory I can garner is :

< puts on tin foil hat >

human died.

 

Either it is about staying alive until the end or there is a bad code in the algorith

that is setting WIN/LOSS by point value of planes/kills not superiority..

 

I have had one match in which red held all sectors and ahead in planes.

I said F it and went high and away to stay alive. Turned into a victory.

 

I really should start submitting tickets again for these " screwy bad matches "

 



Prenzlau #3 Posted 02 July 2019 - 03:59 PM

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    I've written before on how cognitive bias leads us to believe certain things about the game and how it plays. I've also written about the concept of fairness and the philosophical ideas behind it. Yet time again and again the person sitting in front of the "shell game" is mystified when they thought they knew where the pea was, then frustrated when WG lifts all the shells up to reveal that the pea is missing. 

 

    This game is not fair. This game has never been fair and never will be. I'd like to point out that battles in history have also not been fair, no two sides squaring off have ever been fair. When you hit the battle button, you get a map, you get teams which consist of humans and bots and what happens next is the way it goes. If you get eliminated and there are only bots left, sadly you are at the mercy of the game and it does not matter what the score is, it will play out as the game goes. If it seems unfair, it just might be, then again since there is no fairness at any point, are you expecting "spontaneous fairness"???

 

    People cannot wrap their minds around the very idea that this game and it's battles are slanted one way or the other. They expect fairness, like a game of chess when each side has exactly the same number of pieces and equidistant starting points. The match makers job is supposed to "match up" teams and the number of starting planes is the same, but that is it. There is no more equality beyond initial starting counts of planes. So sometimes a "bad session" of playing, is just that, a string of defeats which amounts to negative circumstances. I went 16-0 last night and I would say at least half those wins were really fortunate, some come from behind last second victories, some in which at one point it looked very grim for my team. So if you want to discuss luck, we can try and go down that path. Fairness? There is none. You have to make your own way in this game and fight and scratch out every victory. 

 

    The premise for the endless frustration and complaining is the idea that this game has to be fair, that everyone deserves a fair battle field. NO. Realize when you push that battle button, you are playing a game that is not fair and the next battle you go into might be very slanted towards or away from you. Complaining will do no good because that game is unfair for two potential reasons. First WG cannot make it any better because they either do not know how to or they do not have the motivation or will to do so. OR, secondly they want the battles to be "unfair" and seemingly random which actually provides a better excuse and cover for anything and everything that can and will go wrong. Since the player base gets "conditioned" to how the game behaves and has generally lower expectations. The idea is for you to "win" just enough, and if you have a bad night, you'll want to come back and prove that was just a bad night, and not what quality of a player you are. So add one more scenario on to the master list and what does that matter? It does not. 

 

    The game is flawed, period. So fly whatever you need too. Play however you need too. Team up with whomever you need too. Do whatever you need too so you have the best chance for winning. Otherwise you'll eventually get sifted into certain ruts and you'll lose your enthusiasm. Win at all costs and do not make apologies. It is NOT JUST YOU VERSUS THE OTHER TEAM, IT IS YOU VERSUS THIS GAME.

 

    Winning the psychological battle is the first step to actually being able to "win" in this game. 

 

Prenzlau

    


Edited by Prenzlau, 02 July 2019 - 04:01 PM.

 

 

 

 


nwlxn12 #4 Posted 02 July 2019 - 04:36 PM

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My unofficial hypothesis is that since there are no humans left on the playing field (even though you are still spectating) WG did there magic equation to play out the game behind the scenes and determined the enemy team bots destroyed all your remaining bots.  In other words, your team bots lost the coin flip and all died.

Captain_Underpants53 #5 Posted 02 July 2019 - 05:02 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 10:59 AM, said:

    I've written before on how cognitive bias leads us to believe certain things about the game and how it plays. I've also written about the concept of fairness and the philosophical ideas behind it. Yet time again and again the person sitting in front of the "shell game" is mystified when they thought they knew where the pea was, then frustrated when WG lifts all the shells up to reveal that the pea is missing. 

 

    This game is not fair. This game has never been fair and never will be. I'd like to point out that battles in history have also not been fair, no two sides squaring off have ever been fair. When you hit the battle button, you get a map, you get teams which consist of humans and bots and what happens next is the way it goes. If you get eliminated and there are only bots left, sadly you are at the mercy of the game and it does not matter what the score is, it will play out as the game goes. If it seems unfair, it just might be, then again since there is no fairness at any point, are you expecting "spontaneous fairness"???

 

    People cannot wrap their minds around the very idea that this game and it's battles are slanted one way or the other. They expect fairness, like a game of chess when each side has exactly the same number of pieces and equidistant starting points. The match makers job is supposed to "match up" teams and the number of starting planes is the same, but that is it. There is no more equality beyond initial starting counts of planes. So sometimes a "bad session" of playing, is just that, a string of defeats which amounts to negative circumstances. I went 16-0 last night and I would say at least half those wins were really fortunate, some come from behind last second victories, some in which at one point it looked very grim for my team. So if you want to discuss luck, we can try and go down that path. Fairness? There is none. You have to make your own way in this game and fight and scratch out every victory. 

 

    The premise for the endless frustration and complaining is the idea that this game has to be fair, that everyone deserves a fair battle field. NO. Realize when you push that battle button, you are playing a game that is not fair and the next battle you go into might be very slanted towards or away from you. Complaining will do no good because that game is unfair for two potential reasons. First WG cannot make it any better because they either do not know how to or they do not have the motivation or will to do so. OR, secondly they want the battles to be "unfair" and seemingly random which actually provides a better excuse and cover for anything and everything that can and will go wrong. Since the player base gets "conditioned" to how the game behaves and has generally lower expectations. The idea is for you to "win" just enough, and if you have a bad night, you'll want to come back and prove that was just a bad night, and not what quality of a player you are. So add one more scenario on to the master list and what does that matter? It does not. 

 

    The game is flawed, period. So fly whatever you need too. Play however you need too. Team up with whomever you need too. Do whatever you need too so you have the best chance for winning. Otherwise you'll eventually get sifted into certain ruts and you'll lose your enthusiasm. Win at all costs and do not make apologies. It is NOT JUST YOU VERSUS THE OTHER TEAM, IT IS YOU VERSUS THIS GAME.

 

    Winning the psychological battle is the first step to actually being able to "win" in this game. 

 

Prenzlau

    


HUH?  'Fairness' and 'Luck'?  Are you trying to derail another thread or just taking the opportunity for yet another humble brag?

 

To reiterate, ahead by major points, ahead by many aircraft, suddenly the game ends and my team is supposedly destroyed although I was watching them all fight right up to the last second.  There is no 'fair' or 'luck' there.  Just something gone sideways with the game. 

 

Hard for you to understand?  I can't figure out the logic either.  Try not to pretend that you do.


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Booze_Morgan #6 Posted 02 July 2019 - 05:22 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

    I've written before on ....... 

 

Prenzlau

    

 

I agree with ya Prenz.  Pilots usually need to shift cognitive gears and 'tudes before forming an opinion permanently. 

 

I THINK what the op is referring to is when the freakin' score says a thing, the colors on the map say the same thing, the population of the blues and reds on the map say the same thing, but the ending is opposite of absolutely all observable data we see.  It's not about fairness in his post, (that particular F word is one I dislike, really,)  it's just about "DAYUM how the SpitHeckDogTick is THAT possible??!!"

 

I guess "flawed programming" will have to do for the fall back feel good-ish explanation.

 

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Spoiler

 


CorvusCorvax #7 Posted 02 July 2019 - 05:36 PM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 02 July 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

 

 

 

I guess "flawed programming" will have to do for the fall back feel good-ish explanation.

 

 


It is most certainly a bug.  There is a long-shot possibility that it's a feature (IOW, on purpose).  This would fit with my "bots are more aggressive after the squall line" observation.



Prenzlau #8 Posted 02 July 2019 - 05:40 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 02 July 2019 - 11:02 AM, said:


HUH?  'Fairness' and 'Luck'?  Are you trying to derail another thread or just taking the opportunity for yet another humble brag?

 

To reiterate, ahead by major points, ahead by many aircraft, suddenly the game ends and my team is supposedly destroyed although I was watching them all fight right up to the last second.  There is no 'fair' or 'luck' there.  Just something gone sideways with the game. 

 

Hard for you to understand?  I can't figure out the logic either.  Try not to pretend that you do.

 

    I believe I was very clear in what I have said. Nothing personal and if I share an experience it is as an example, nothing more. I'm simply pointing out that this game is not fair and that no battle is set up to be fair. If any particular battle seems equal and balanced, that is just circumstance, luck of the draw. 

 

    You can "reiterate" all you want. The fact is you got knocked out of battle and was at the mercy of the game. If anyone thinks this game is designed to balance anything, you would be sadly in error. You cannot depend on bots to do anything, they can hurt your team just as well as help it. If you leave it up to bots, then it is a coin flip, the result will be what it will be. Again, fair??? Not possible. 

 

    Fair battles are the ones we win. Unfair battles are obviously the ones we lose. Lucky battles we win. Unlucky battles we lose. There will always be a human cognitive bias toward your own ego, your deserving right. So we tend to accept explanations that are favorable and beneficial and we tend to question and become skeptical when outcomes are not favorable. This has nothing to do with whether someone deserves to win or lose. We all think we deserve to win, most of the time, that is the human bias. Every time we play we are always optimistic in this regard. We play to win and if we have fun as well, then best of both worlds. 

 

    Underpants, you brought forth your observations and I'm trying to help you understand that it doesn't matter. How you win or lose doesn't matter. It is a video game and every battle has a finality. If you are pointing out something sideways and strange, I think we have covered in general that this game is flawed, over and over again. If a human cannot win against all bots, well it does happen, it might even be embarrassing, but it really is not strange or surprising. 

 

    So here is the logic, pay attention.

 

First, the game is flawed which makes it seem at times to be unfair and unbalanced. 

 

Second, everything is built upon the premise that this game is flawed, so what happens can never be viewed in any other light than tainted. 

 

Third, people who cannot understand the first and second things I just wrote are themselves flawed in some way. They cannot understand that you cannot expect fairness and balance from something inherently the opposite. So if I'm some sort of bad guy for pointing out the obvious, so be it.

 

Prenzlau 


Edited by Prenzlau, 02 July 2019 - 05:55 PM.

 

 

 

 


Prenzlau #9 Posted 02 July 2019 - 06:17 PM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 02 July 2019 - 11:22 AM, said:

 

I agree with ya Prenz.  Pilots usually need to shift cognitive gears and 'tudes before forming an opinion permanently. 

 

I THINK what the op is referring to is when the freakin' score says a thing, the colors on the map say the same thing, the population of the blues and reds on the map say the same thing, but the ending is opposite of absolutely all observable data we see.  It's not about fairness in his post, (that particular F word is one I dislike, really,)  it's just about "DAYUM how the SpitHeckDogTick is THAT possible??!!"

 

I guess "flawed programming" will have to do for the fall back feel good-ish explanation.

 

Booze

 

    I think fairness is always on a person's mind, constantly. I say that because we exist in a reality where we have to make comparisons and judgments to navigate and appraise our lives. So I think the "fairness" aspect is always connected to how players view this game.

 

    I do understand what you are saying about his intentions. I'm quite sure if something happens to one player, it will surely happen to another. (Except for the HHJ chronicles, as seen on late night TV)

 

    If people recorded and reported all the anomalies and strange happenings in this game, we would need an online library. I guess generally, no battle is ever won until it is, or lost for that matter. If something strange happens, report it, turn in evidence, like seeing a UFO. I'm sure they will get to the bottom of it. The truth is out there.

 

    What do you suggest the player community should do, when something strange happens?

 

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losttwo #10 Posted 02 July 2019 - 06:29 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 10:59 AM, said:

    I've written before on how cognitive bias leads us to believe certain things about the game and how it plays.  Sniped for brevity  that's right I said sniped

 

    Winning the psychological battle is the first step to actually being able to "win" in this game. 

 

Prenzlau

    

 

The OP is not talking about fairness or MM.

He is talking about those rare and strange games.

Like the kind of game that all you have to do is load in, do nothing and it is a victory vs all bots.

Did I forget to mention a few of those too.

Yeah. Just click battle, walk away and get distracted. Then the OH SHITE moment hits and you come back to a victory screen.



Prenzlau #11 Posted 02 July 2019 - 06:38 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 02 July 2019 - 12:29 PM, said:

 

The OP is not talking about fairness or MM.

He is talking about those rare and strange games.

Like the kind of game that all you have to do is load in, do nothing and it is a victory vs all bots.

Did I forget to mention a few of those too.

Yeah. Just click battle, walk away and get distracted. Then the OH SHITE moment hits and you come back to a victory screen.

 

    And.... what about it?

 

All I'm saying is that whether it is "rare and strange" or "strange and rare", or medium well with just a little pink in the middle, it makes no real difference. If you or anyone can put up an convincing argument that it means something, I would be more than willing to listen and amend my remarks.

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


Captain_Underpants53 #12 Posted 02 July 2019 - 06:42 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 12:40 PM, said:

 

    I believe I was very clear in what I have said. Nothing personal and if I share an experience it is as an example, nothing more. I'm simply pointing out that this game is not fair and that no battle is set up to be fair. If any particular battle seems equal and balanced, that is just circumstance, luck of the draw. 

 

    You can "reiterate" all you want. The fact is you got knocked out of battle and was at the mercy of the game. If anyone thinks this game is designed to balance anything, you would be sadly in error. You cannot depend on bots to do anything, they can hurt your team just as well as help it. If you leave it up to bots, then it is a coin flip, the result will be what it will be. Again, fair??? Not possible. 

 

    Fair battles are the ones we win. Unfair battles are obviously the ones we lose. Lucky battles we win. Unlucky battles we lose. There will always be a human cognitive bias toward your own ego, your deserving right. So we tend to accept explanations that are favorable and beneficial and we tend to question and become skeptical when outcomes are not favorable. This has nothing to do with whether someone deserves to win or lose. We all think we deserve to win, most of the time, that is the human bias. Every time we play we are always optimistic in this regard. We play to win and if we have fun as well, then best of both worlds. 

 

    Underpants, you brought forth your observations and I'm trying to help you understand that it doesn't matter. How you win or lose doesn't matter. It is a video game and every battle has a finality. If you are pointing out something sideways and strange, I think we have covered in general that this game is flawed, over and over again. If a human cannot win against all bots, well it does happen, it might even be embarrassing, but it really is not strange or surprising. 

 

    So here is the logic, pay attention.

 

First, the game is flawed which makes it seem at times to be unfair and unbalanced. 

 

Second, everything is built upon the premise that this game is flawed, so what happens can never be viewed in any other light than tainted. 

 

Third, people who cannot understand the first and second things I just wrote are themselves flawed in some way. They cannot understand that you cannot expect fairness and balance from something inherently the opposite. So if I'm some sort of bad guy for pointing out the obvious, so be it.

 

Prenzlau 


Spare us your bombastic, condescending, bloviating.  You insist on ignoring the points I raised and insist on 'fairness' and 'equal and balanced' which have NOTHING to do with this battle.  Keep on derailing, I don't much care.


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Prenzlau #13 Posted 02 July 2019 - 06:52 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 02 July 2019 - 12:42 PM, said:


Spare us your bombastic, condescending, bloviating.  You insist on ignoring the points I raised and insist on 'fairness' and 'equal and balanced' which have NOTHING to do with this battle.  Keep on derailing, I don't much care.

 

    I'm sorry. I don't know why you're getting upset and name calling. What do you expect people to do? What do you expect people to say? I'm really just trying to help with some clarity and insight.

 

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Stygian_Alchemist #14 Posted 02 July 2019 - 07:24 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

 

    I'm sorry. I don't know why you're getting upset and name calling. What do you expect people to do? What do you expect people to say? I'm really just trying to help with some clarity and insight.

 

Prenzlau


There is no "clarity" or "insight" about balance or fairness when you're talking about a bug. There is nothing for you to add other than commiseration or if you've had it happen, anecdotes/evidence thereof.

What you did was expound, in a verbose manner, on your philosophies. It uh... has nothing at all to do with the OP unless you're some sort of new-ager looking for philosophical and spiritual fulfillment in a video game.



Prenzlau #15 Posted 02 July 2019 - 07:59 PM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 02 July 2019 - 01:24 PM, said:


There is no "clarity" or "insight" about balance or fairness when you're talking about a bug. There is nothing for you to add other than commiseration or if you've had it happen, anecdotes/evidence thereof.

What you did was expound, in a verbose manner, on your philosophies. It uh... has nothing at all to do with the OP unless you're some sort of new-ager looking for philosophical and spiritual fulfillment in a video game.

 

 

    What if it is not a bug? Why is everyone assuming that it is a bug?

 

What if one bot was just better than another bot? What if it was just destiny for one team to win? I guess saying "it's a bug" is just easier on some minds.

 

I think it is very important to extrapolate from the game and theorize versus blindly acquiesce to the simplest explanation of circumstance. So I am willing to explore and investigate this further.

 

It would have been helpful if some screen shots would have been made and shared, but the video exists. Was it turned in to WG with a report?

 

I'm only trying to help.

 

Prenzlau

 

PS- Widow, I saved some of your "rhetoric" from the battle last night for my signature, and I thought to myself, nah, I'm better than that.

 


Edited by Prenzlau, 02 July 2019 - 08:01 PM.

 

 

 

 


Stygian_Alchemist #16 Posted 02 July 2019 - 08:12 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

bloviates some more

 


No one cares Prenz and no one thinks you were trying to be helpful. You spouted a bunch of woo and now you're trying to make it seem legitimate and important. I appreciate the troll effort, but there are better targets than Underpants. Might I suggest your nemesis desert?



Prenzlau #17 Posted 02 July 2019 - 08:40 PM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 02 July 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:


No one cares Prenz and no one thinks you were trying to be helpful. You spouted a bunch of woo and now you're trying to make it seem legitimate and important. I appreciate the troll effort, but there are better targets than Underpants. Might I suggest your nemesis desert?

 

    I don't have any enemies, just people who do not understand me and are confused.

 

I stated my theories and sentiments. I posed some questions. I did not make any personal attacks or call people names. My motive to help is a sincere one. One could argue that this thread is not very important, but I thought I would see if what Underpants is saying is worth further thought. 

 

It is easy to just point the "troll finger" at the people you do not like. I have not posted here in weeks. I plainly asked if anyone would or could make an argument for the importance or validity of Underpant's post and so far no one has really said anything. So even when you ask the right questions you still get labeled simply because certain people don't like or in turn are just biding their time before they unleash their own rants. Actually now that I think upon it, "Troll Finger" would be sharp forum name for someone who indulges.

 

I will give you points for using "Woo" in a sentence. 

 

People just ignore what I say and just focus on my existence, and I get blamed for not saying anything of substance when that is really not the case.

 

Prenzlau


Edited by Prenzlau, 02 July 2019 - 08:42 PM.

 

 

 

 


desert786 #18 Posted 02 July 2019 - 08:41 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 02 July 2019 - 07:06 AM, said:

My last battle was me and 23 bots.  I capped four bases and got knocked out by the ubiquitous heavy bot after the squall line.  I always watch all the battles to the end and was happily watching my bots blowing away red bots while our considerable lead in points continued to grow.  Then, suddenly, the game ended with a score of 788 or so to around 650 for the reds.  There were still 6 blue bots to only 1 red bot.

 

DEFEAT!  Combat group destroyed!  WTH?!  This is the second battle I have lost like this in the last two weeks.   Why?

 

Both battles were myself and 23 bots.  Both battles I had a considerable lead.  Both battles ended the same way with more blue bots than red bots fighting but red won because Combat Group Destroyed.

 

Am I the only person who always watches the battles through to the end?  Or am I the only one who has this happen?  I've never noticed anyone else remark about this type of battle.  And it is a very memorable battle.


this is probably a bug.

 

remember back in the early days of 2.0, if you killed all the human players after squall the game would end in the team with the players left alive victory. it might be a left over of that bug. make a ticket with the replay.



SkyWolf__WM #19 Posted 02 July 2019 - 08:44 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 02 July 2019 - 10:06 AM, said:

My last battle was me and 23 bots.  I capped four bases and got knocked out by the ubiquitous heavy bot after the squall line.  I always watch all the battles to the end and was happily watching my bots blowing away red bots while our considerable lead in points continued to grow.  Then, suddenly, the game ended with a score of 788 or so to around 650 for the reds.  There were still 6 blue bots to only 1 red bot.

 

DEFEAT!  Combat group destroyed!  WTH?!  This is the second battle I have lost like this in the last two weeks.   Why?

 

Both battles were myself and 23 bots.  Both battles I had a considerable lead.  Both battles ended the same way with more blue bots than red bots fighting but red won because Combat Group Destroyed.

 

Am I the only person who always watches the battles through to the end?  Or am I the only one who has this happen?  I've never noticed anyone else remark about this type of battle.  And it is a very memorable battle.

It's pretty explicable. And no, I usually watch.:honoring:


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Stygian_Alchemist #20 Posted 02 July 2019 - 08:53 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 02 July 2019 - 02:40 PM, said:

 

    I don't have any enemies, just people who do not understand me and are confused.

 

I stated my theories and sentiments. I posed some questions. I did not make any personal attacks or call people names. My motive to help is a sincere one. One could argue that this thread is not very important, but I thought I would see if what Underpants is saying is worth further thought. 

 

It is easy to just point the "troll finger" at the people you do not like. I have not posted here in weeks. I plainly asked if anyone would or could make an argument for the importance or validity of Underpant's post and so far no one has really said anything. So even when you ask the right questions you still get labeled simply because certain people don't like or in turn are just biding their time before they unleash their own rants. Actually now that I think upon it, "Troll Finger" would be sharp forum name for someone who indulges.

 

I will give you points for using "Woo" in a sentence. 

 

People just ignore what I say and just focus on my existence, and I get blamed for not saying anything of substance when that is really not the case.

 

Prenzlau

Fascinating screenshots were posted in the forums. Some of us saved those before they were taken down. It would very much seem you have a nemesis unless you were making false claims.

The reason for the post is really quite simple to anyone not constantly looking behind lamp-posts for people watching them or meaning in a trash bag floating in the breeze. 

The fact that you're not being answered is because engaging with your "questions" would be validating you. Why do that? Your questions weren't valid.

However, because I'm trying to be a bit nicer toward you at the request of someone I consider a friend... I am going to give the benefit of the doubt this -one- time (which I have no doubt will bite me) and consider that maybe you've missed the -blindingly- obvious. The post was to discuss a bug that has occurred more than once and try to gain the attention (hopefully) of blindfold.. who seems to be quite a bit better at getting our tickets answered and fixed than just filing a ticket usually is. It was to see if others were experiencing it as well or if maybe it was just a very strange UI bug. It was, in fact, a -very- self explanatory sort of post when you stop trying to apply concepts that were never brought up. Like.. Fairness. No one gives a flip about "fairness" as the subject of this thread. It -wasn't- the subject of the thread, it wasn't mentioned at all until -you-. That's why people think you're de-railing and trolling. That's why you get the finger pointed.







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