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GeorgePatton #1 Posted 11 June 2019 - 07:23 PM

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Hello Everyone!

 

I'm starting a series of 'Paper Combat' - some of you may wonder what that means, so here's the deal!

 

General Format:

 

Each week, I'll pick a plane to 'fly' and anyone can challenge me with a scenario - the 'challenger' gives me details such as "I'm flying an Me.262 at 3000m and I approach you at 2000m from behind, what do you do?" - the more detail you fit into that, the better!

 

I'll reply with how I would respond to that given situation.

 

The more interesting cases may warrant some back-and-forth "OK, so you respond like that, but what would you do if I did this in response to your response?" kind of thing.

 

 

So, without further ado let's get to it!

 


 

Week I

 

This week, I'll be flying the BV P.210 with the following statistics:

 

Armament:

  •  2x 20 mm MG-213/20 ©
  • Cumulative Damage - 400 (+20% bonus on head-to-head attacks from Charlotte von Stauffen)
  • Optimal Distance - 800m
  • Accuracy boost + 24%
  • Chance of causing fire - 10%
  • Chane of Critical Damage - 5%
  • 24x R4M Rockets - 3 Salvos of 8
  • Cumulative Damage - 3960 (+20% bonus on head-to-head attacks from Charlotte von Stauffen)
  • Resuply Time - 41s
  • Optimal Distance - 1390m (I've tested the range to 2250m before auto-detonation)
  • Rocket Accuracy +5%

 

Survivability:

  • Hit Points - 280
  • Resistance to Damage - 43
  • Resistance to Fire - 34
  • Wing Resistance to Critical Damage -10%
  • Engine resistance to Critical Damage -17%
  • Pilot resistance to Critical Damage -17%
  • Resistance to Fire -33%

 

Airspeed:

  • Cruise Speed 499 km/h
  • Boost Speed 751 km/h
  • Boost Duration 10s
  • Maximum Dive Speed 920 km/h
  • Acceleration without Boost 12%
  • Cruise Speed 3%
  • Acceleration with Boost 1%

 

Maneuverability:

  • Time to Turn 9.7s
  • Rate of Roll 224
  • Minimum Optimal Speed 288 km/h
  • Maximum Optimal Speed 720 km/h
  • Stall Speed 200 km/h
  • Yaw Maneuverability +11%

 

Altitude Performance:

  • Minimum Optimal 0m
  • Maximum Optimal 1800m
  • Service Ceiling 3800m
  • Rate of Climb 136 m/s

 

 

Challenge away!

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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mnbv_fockewulfe #2 Posted 11 June 2019 - 08:24 PM

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Bf-109G unspecialized. :bajan:

I'm available to fly Fridays and Saturdays. :B


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GeorgePatton #3 Posted 11 June 2019 - 08:41 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 11 June 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

Bf-109G unspecialized. :bajan:

I'm available to fly Fridays and Saturdays. :B


OMG... I'm down? Haha, but seriously, this is 'forum warz' haha

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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CorvusCorvax #4 Posted 11 June 2019 - 09:36 PM

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I haven't forgotten, George.

 

I'll be with you shortly.



mnbv_fockewulfe #5 Posted 11 June 2019 - 10:00 PM

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Ki 102   Fw 190 A-5  
Health 350 Health 300
dps 440 dps 438
dpb 221 dpb 58.1
weight 7178 weight 5360
lb 15825 lb 11817
HP 3000 HP 2000
P/W 0.190 P/W 0.169
Boost time 25 Boost time 20
Top speed opt 610 Top speed opt 660
Top speed cruise 500 Top speed cruise 414
accel boost 6.12 accel boost 5.47
accel cruise 3.06 accel cruise 2.73
max dive 800 max dive 820
stall 140 stall 180
min opt speed 350 min opt speed 252
max opt speed 575 max opt speed 588
average turn 12.3 average turn 13.3
max turn 10.25 max turn 11.08
roll 90 roll 160
opt alt 2000 opt alt 1400
climb 86 climb 97.4
controlability 79.2 controlability 73.6
I find something like this helps a lot, the different cells would be color coded according to which stat was better of course.

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mnbv_fockewulfe #6 Posted 11 June 2019 - 10:14 PM

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btw, I don't think there are very many situations where a dogfight will extend more than 2 maneuvers, 3 at most. 

As it is, a lot comes down to first engagement. With the way the spotting mechanics work you can't really get much of a jump when you're spotted at a minimum distance of 1500m. So most if not all engagements not matter the starting position will come down to a head-on. Altitude and maneuvering no longer affects dispersion, so full damage and crit chance can be used (baring the difficulties of aiming at someone coming up towards you at an angle or vice versa).


Edited by mnbv_fockewulfe, 11 June 2019 - 10:15 PM.

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mnbv_fockewulfe #7 Posted 11 June 2019 - 10:46 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 11 June 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:


OMG... I'm down? Haha, but seriously, this is 'forum warz' haha

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


In all seriousness, I'd like to see, just on paper, XP-72 versus your plane.

Let's see how good you are at doing this. :)


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GeorgePatton #8 Posted 11 June 2019 - 11:28 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 11 June 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:


In all seriousness, I'd like to see, just on paper, XP-72 versus your plane.

Let's see how good you are at doing this. :)


Sounds good!

 

Couple things I'd like to know going in:

 

  • Altitudes
  • Positions (clock system will work well!)
  • Ranges
  • Airspeeds (You can put me anywhere inside the standard airspeed band)
  • Boost status (Give me anywhere from 0-10s boost)
  • External Armament Status (Do you want me to have rockets available? How many salvos? The most you can do is give me a 41s reload time - you can't take 'em away completely! haha)

 

Here is the relevant comparison chart with all the information I could find:

 

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


Edited by GeorgePatton, 12 June 2019 - 12:13 AM.

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mnbv_fockewulfe #9 Posted 12 June 2019 - 12:52 AM

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  • Altitudes -  both start at 1700m (just below both their optimums)
  • Positions (clock system will work well!) - there's terminology for this I know...I forget, but both in their respective 12 o'clock positions should do (i.e. a head-on).
  • Ranges - net 2000m
  • Airspeeds (You can put me anywhere inside the standard airspeed band) -both at cruise
  • Boost status (Give me anywhere from 0-10s boost) - full boost available
  • External Armament Status (Do you want me to have rockets available? How many salvos? The most you can do is give me a 41s reload time - you can't take 'em away completely! haha) -if you can, first without rockets and then with both rockets ;)

btw, HP in my chart is Horsepower of the engine. For jets you get lbs of thrust. I don't really understand how this relates to HP, but I have a conversion number somewhere of kgthrust/weight * conversion factor to get acceleration.

Acceleration is derived from P/W (in HP and lb) ratio times a conversion number (32.2). Cruise acceleration is half the value of boost acceleration (boost acceleration uses the listed max HP of the engine in a tooltip).

Max turn time is 20% less than the displayed avg turn time. The equation is:

avg turn*.8=max turn (the calculation of turn times is rather screwy, there may be a bug with the displayed stats in the hanger).

Weight is found on this website. https://gamemodels3d...rldofwarplanes/

To get access to planes T8 and above you need to make a small "donation" to the website to become a member or you can ask Myzu on the discord to look it up for you. It's supposedly safe, but I personally don't trust having my credit card info on a third party site in general, but do whatever you think is safe. 

If you're interested, I've done experiments with cruise speed and acceleration above optimum altitude. If you want the results of that just ask. I have yet to do a thorough study on climbrate or other performances above opt altitude, or dive acceleration. 


Edited by mnbv_fockewulfe, 12 June 2019 - 12:53 AM.

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trikke #10 Posted 12 June 2019 - 01:12 AM

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Jesus x.     What a great idea for a thread, GP!!


If I could suggest, you also pick the other plane, too?     or identical planes?

 


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GeorgePatton #11 Posted 12 June 2019 - 01:48 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 11 June 2019 - 07:52 PM, said:

  • Altitudes -  both start at 1700m (just below both their optimums)
  • Positions (clock system will work well!) - there's terminology for this I know...I forget, but both in their respective 12 o'clock positions should do (i.e. a head-on).
  • Ranges - net 2000m
  • Airspeeds (You can put me anywhere inside the standard airspeed band) -both at cruise
  • Boost status (Give me anywhere from 0-10s boost) - full boost available
  • External Armament Status (Do you want me to have rockets available? How many salvos? The most you can do is give me a 41s reload time - you can't take 'em away completely! haha) -if you can, first without rockets and then with both rockets ;)

 

For no rockets on a head-on with the XP-72 I would get my second or two of extra firing range on the head-to-head. My max range is 900m and the XP-72 max is I think around 600-700? Those US .50s FTW!

 

On a head-to-head Charlotte will kick in an extra 20% damage so each second I will be dealing 480 damage. Of course, not all of those shots are going to land because we don't have 100% accuracy, but the XP-72 should lose 100 HP give or take. At about 700m I'll go ahead and enter a shallow dive to the right (about 20 degrees nose down and also about 20 degrees off of the XP-72's nose) and then at about 400m I'll swing back in and wreck about another 150+ HP off the '72.

 

This sets me into the turn fight where my 9.7 second time-to-turn makes the XP-72 (13.5 second time-to-turn) look like a brick. At this point, the XP-72 might as well bail out because there's literally nothing the pilot can do to avoid going down.

 

 

If I had the rockets available, I'd start shooting the guns at 1000m to mask the rockets that I launch at 800m. That puts the XP-72 on defense if he manages to see the rockets incoming and dodges them (which is pretty hard to do!). If he doesn't dodge, he's dead. If he does dodge he completely lost gun solution and we're back to the 400m part of the last encounter. Instead of using the guns on that chandelle (the climbing turn for anyone new to aviation terms) I'll use the rockets and won't have to bother finishing the turn.

 


 

Why I'm so confident that this fight would pan out like this:

 

The XP-72 should never find itself in a situation where it is going head-to-head with an opponent with harder-hitting guns, better speed, and more maneuverability. The one thing the XP-72 really has that it can utilize is the 200 HP advantage which is all but completely negated before it gets within range of the BV P.210. The XP-72 can't hit hard enough to bring the BV P.210 down before the 400m point (the 210 would be hurt, for sure, but definitely not dead!) and at that point it's game over for the XP-72 either in the rockets case or the guns case.

 

The best thing the XP-72 could do to fight the BV P.210 would be to force a situation where the BV is carrying too much speed to utilize its maneuverability advantage. Something like being at or below 100m, having a mountain right off it's right wing, and the BV diving at near max dive speed. That would force the BV to pull out of the attack early while bringing it in range of the XP-72. The XP would then use the 20s of boost (an advantage of 10 seconds) to climb after the retreating BV and if timed correctly, the XP would pull right onto the BV's tail at about 300m giving the XP just enough time to bring the BV down before the BV gets the required 1000m or so to turn around and clip the XP with a salvo of rockets.

 

Basically the XP-72 should avoid a 1v1 encounter with a BV at all costs because getting the setup just right is a really hard thing to do. Even then, it's not guaranteed to work, especially if the BV pilot is really good with the rockets which he/she may launch prior to pulling out of the attack dive.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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Mercsn #12 Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:23 AM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 11 June 2019 - 07:48 PM, said:

 

 

On a head-to-head Charlotte will kick in an extra 20% damage so each second I will be dealing 480 damage. Of course, not all of those shots are going to land because we don't have 100% accuracy, but the XP-72 should lose 100 HP give or take. At about 700m I'll go ahead and enter a shallow dive to the right (about 20 degrees nose down and also about 20 degrees off of the XP-72's nose) and then at about 400m I'll swing back in and wreck about another 150+ HP off the '72.

 

 

I hear that chick pilot (if that's the "Charlotte" you're reffering to) isn't good about activating that head on skill in faster planes.  I don't have her, so I can't confirm. AND, we seem to have lost the little thingy in the mini map that would ding and light up when those type of conditional skills would activate.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

GeorgePatton #13 Posted 12 June 2019 - 11:29 AM

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View PostMercsn, on 12 June 2019 - 04:23 AM, said:

 

I hear that chick pilot (if that's the "Charlotte" you're reffering to) isn't good about activating that head on skill in faster planes.  I don't have her, so I can't confirm. AND, we seem to have lost the little thingy in the mini map that would ding and light up when those type of conditional skills would activate.


Interesting - I haven’t noticed this myself. I usually hear a couple ‘beeps’ almost as soon as I look directly at someone else on a head-to-head and I assume that’s the skill activating.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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mnbv_fockewulfe #14 Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:14 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 12 June 2019 - 01:48 AM, said:

 

For no rockets on a head-on with the XP-72 I would get my second or two of extra firing range on the head-to-head. My max range is 900m and the XP-72 max is I think around 600-700? Those US .50s FTW!

 

On a head-to-head Charlotte will kick in an extra 20% damage so each second I will be dealing 480 damage. Of course, not all of those shots are going to land because we don't have 100% accuracy, but the XP-72 should lose 100 HP give or take. At about 700m I'll go ahead and enter a shallow dive to the right (about 20 degrees nose down and also about 20 degrees off of the XP-72's nose) and then at about 400m I'll swing back in and wreck about another 150+ HP off the '72.

 

This sets me into the turn fight where my 9.7 second time-to-turn makes the XP-72 (13.5 second time-to-turn) look like a brick. At this point, the XP-72 might as well bail out because there's literally nothing the pilot can do to avoid going down.

 

 

If I had the rockets available, I'd start shooting the guns at 1000m to mask the rockets that I launch at 800m. That puts the XP-72 on defense if he manages to see the rockets incoming and dodges them (which is pretty hard to do!). If he doesn't dodge, he's dead. If he does dodge he completely lost gun solution and we're back to the 400m part of the last encounter. Instead of using the guns on that chandelle (the climbing turn for anyone new to aviation terms) I'll use the rockets and won't have to bother finishing the turn.

 


 

Why I'm so confident that this fight would pan out like this:

 

The XP-72 should never find itself in a situation where it is going head-to-head with an opponent with harder-hitting guns, better speed, and more maneuverability. The one thing the XP-72 really has that it can utilize is the 200 HP advantage which is all but completely negated before it gets within range of the BV P.210. The XP-72 can't hit hard enough to bring the BV P.210 down before the 400m point (the 210 would be hurt, for sure, but definitely not dead!) and at that point it's game over for the XP-72 either in the rockets case or the guns case.

 

The best thing the XP-72 could do to fight the BV P.210 would be to force a situation where the BV is carrying too much speed to utilize its maneuverability advantage. Something like being at or below 100m, having a mountain right off it's right wing, and the BV diving at near max dive speed. That would force the BV to pull out of the attack early while bringing it in range of the XP-72. The XP would then use the 20s of boost (an advantage of 10 seconds) to climb after the retreating BV and if timed correctly, the XP would pull right onto the BV's tail at about 300m giving the XP just enough time to bring the BV down before the BV gets the required 1000m or so to turn around and clip the XP with a salvo of rockets.

 

Basically the XP-72 should avoid a 1v1 encounter with a BV at all costs because getting the setup just right is a really hard thing to do. Even then, it's not guaranteed to work, especially if the BV pilot is really good with the rockets which he/she may launch prior to pulling out of the attack dive.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


hmmm...I don't think you are approaching this the right way.

The reason you have the chart there is so you can see what both planes have as options. To call it a day after the first pass is a mistake.

As I see it, there are probabilities for each step.

Sure the BV has a higher probability of winning a straight up headon, but if we're considering full stat values here the BV takes over a second to kill the XP-78, while the XP-78 guns down the BV in just over half a second...so this is where probabilities come in.

With a closing speed of 979kmh and a starting distance of 1000m, that gives 3.7 seconds before they pass eachother.

The BV with it's quicker heat cycle will probably only want to start shooting at 800-700m, the Xp can start firing whenever he wants but let's consider his fire is effect at only 600m. So the the BV has 3 seconds of gun time and the XP has 2.2 seconds.

I like using the accuracy values of 25% for 20mm and 20% for MG (this is slightly based off of my experience from 1.x so this assumption has some validity to it but involves many factors.

So the BV has a firepower of: 100dps, 300 damage for the duration of guntime.

XP: 78dps, 172 damage for the duration of guntime.

BV health after headon: 108HP 39%

XP-72: 180HP 38%

Here is where the options diverge drastically. Game over colored in orange.

1. At this point the XP could push for the ram and win. Winner XP.

Both survive and the BV initiates a turnfight and the XP get's stuck in.

2. BV wins a turn fight due to drastically better maneuverability. Winner BV.

The BV applies airbrakes to reduce his airspeed and increase guntime. This gives him a better chance of hitting at long range, inflicting more damage, and scoring a crit.

3. The BV wins the headon or see resolution 2. Winner BV.

The BV applies airbrakes to reduce his airspeed and increase guntime. The XP is able to dodge a good amount of the incoming fire by boosting and performing a rolling dive to the right. While to BV has better acceleration, it has slowed down and has to turn around, giving the XP a huge lead in creating distance between them.

4. The XP engages in BnZ tactics and is able to stall out the BV by gaining altitude above it with it's better climbrate and airspeed. Winner XP.

Or

5. The BV pilot is more competent than the XP pilot and beats his BnZ tactics.

Total victory points

BV: 3

XP: 2

Verdict: the BV will win 3/5 times according to this analysis.


Edited by mnbv_fockewulfe, 12 June 2019 - 09:14 PM.

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BB3_Oregon_Steel #15 Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:00 AM

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Ok, I'm in a P-12 (beware the biplane) positioned 3 feet from the nose of your plane heading in the opposite direction.  The P-12 is carrying an armed 1 megaton nuclear warhead. 

 

Ha, try getting out of that one :)

 

Bi-Plane Fighters ATTACK!!!! :kamikaze:



trikke #16 Posted 13 June 2019 - 01:38 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 12 June 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:


hmmm...I don't think you are approaching this the right way.

The reason you have the chart there is so you can see what both planes have as options. To call it a day after the first pass is a mistake.

As I see it, there are probabilities for each step.

Sure the BV has a higher probability of winning a straight up headon, but if we're considering full stat values here the BV takes over a second to kill the XP-78, while the XP-78 guns down the BV in just over half a second...so this is where probabilities come in.

With a closing speed of 979kmh and a starting distance of 1000m, that gives 3.7 seconds before they pass eachother.

The BV with it's quicker heat cycle will probably only want to start shooting at 800-700m, the Xp can start firing whenever he wants but let's consider his fire is effect at only 600m. So the the BV has 3 seconds of gun time and the XP has 2.2 seconds.

I like using the accuracy values of 25% for 20mm and 20% for MG (this is slightly based off of my experience from 1.x so this assumption has some validity to it but involves many factors.

So the BV has a firepower of: 100dps, 300 damage for the duration of guntime.

XP: 78dps, 172 damage for the duration of guntime.

BV health after headon: 108HP 39%

XP-72: 180HP 38%

Here is where the options diverge drastically. Game over colored in orange.

1. At this point the XP could push for the ram and win. Winner XP.

Both survive and the BV initiates a turnfight and the XP get's stuck in.

2. BV wins a turn fight due to drastically better maneuverability. Winner BV.

The BV applies airbrakes to reduce his airspeed and increase guntime. This gives him a better chance of hitting at long range, inflicting more damage, and scoring a crit.

3. The BV wins the headon or see resolution 2. Winner BV.

The BV applies airbrakes to reduce his airspeed and increase guntime. The XP is able to dodge a good amount of the incoming fire by boosting and performing a rolling dive to the right. While to BV has better acceleration, it has slowed down and has to turn around, giving the XP a huge lead in creating distance between them.

4. The XP engages in BnZ tactics and is able to stall out the BV by gaining altitude above it with it's better climbrate and airspeed. Winner XP.

Or

5. The BV pilot is more competent than the XP pilot and beats his BnZ tactics.

Total victory points

BV: 3

XP: 2

Verdict: the BV will win 3/5 times according to this analysis.

 

well just eff me      this is why I'll never be leet


my eyes would only get bigger as you fly right at me, I would mash the fire button and pray


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GeorgePatton #17 Posted 13 June 2019 - 03:05 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 12 June 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:


hmmm...I don't think you are approaching this the right way.

The reason you have the chart there is so you can see what both planes have as options. To call it a day after the first pass is a mistake.

As I see it, there are probabilities for each step.

Sure the BV has a higher probability of winning a straight up headon, but if we're considering full stat values here the BV takes over a second to kill the XP-78, while the XP-78 guns down the BV in just over half a second...so this is where probabilities come in.

With a closing speed of 979kmh and a starting distance of 1000m, that gives 3.7 seconds before they pass eachother.

The BV with it's quicker heat cycle will probably only want to start shooting at 800-700m, the Xp can start firing whenever he wants but let's consider his fire is effect at only 600m. So the the BV has 3 seconds of gun time and the XP has 2.2 seconds.

I like using the accuracy values of 25% for 20mm and 20% for MG (this is slightly based off of my experience from 1.x so this assumption has some validity to it but involves many factors.

So the BV has a firepower of: 100dps, 300 damage for the duration of guntime.

XP: 78dps, 172 damage for the duration of guntime.

BV health after headon: 108HP 39%

XP-72: 180HP 38%

Here is where the options diverge drastically. Game over colored in orange.

1. At this point the XP could push for the ram and win. Winner XP.

Both survive and the BV initiates a turnfight and the XP get's stuck in.

2. BV wins a turn fight due to drastically better maneuverability. Winner BV.

The BV applies airbrakes to reduce his airspeed and increase guntime. This gives him a better chance of hitting at long range, inflicting more damage, and scoring a crit.

3. The BV wins the headon or see resolution 2. Winner BV.

The BV applies airbrakes to reduce his airspeed and increase guntime. The XP is able to dodge a good amount of the incoming fire by boosting and performing a rolling dive to the right. While to BV has better acceleration, it has slowed down and has to turn around, giving the XP a huge lead in creating distance between them.

4. The XP engages in BnZ tactics and is able to stall out the BV by gaining altitude above it with it's better climbrate and airspeed. Winner XP.

Or

5. The BV pilot is more competent than the XP pilot and beats his BnZ tactics.

Total victory points

BV: 3

XP: 2

Verdict: the BV will win 3/5 times according to this analysis.

 

Option 1 is definitely the smart play for the XP-72. A pilot with the first idea of what to do in the BV will know that s/he needs to use the BV’s ridiculous roll rate to avoid the ram so the ram is never actually going to happen assuming skilled pilots in both planes.

 

Option 2 is (without rockets) where this fight will effectively end every time. The XP-72 just is not fast enough to extend far enough out before the BV can get turned around (~4 seconds to turn around without using the turn consumable). If the BV waits until the merge is complete to start the turn, there is a chance that the XP-72 can extend enough to be out of range when the BV finishes the 180 degree turn. That’s why in my original flow I pull back into the merge at 400m - it starts that turn so that if the XP-72 tries to extend rather than turn, I’ll end up within 100m. If the XP-72 does try to turn, I’m already established in a turn and about 1/2-3/4 of a turn ahead of the XP-72 and getting a gun solution is a matter of only about 1 second.

 

The risk in my play is obviously that the XP-72 gets 200m of ‘free fire’ on me as I’m not looking at him - this is minimized by actively maneuvering in the vertical plane +/- 20m to bring down the ‘72s accuracy (accuracy vs a maneuvering target is lower not considering a player’s aiming ability). Of course, the 20mm canons have a much higher damage capability within 400m so that return to the merge at 400m also massively increases the amount of damage being dealt by the guns. Experience with this tactic says the XP-72 dies at this point, but accounting for a good pilot in the XP-72 I think it’s possible we both get past that point and of course now we’re into the kill scenario. Either XP-72 dies quickly trying to extend (because I already started my turn and will end up within 100m) or the XP-72 tries to turn and lasts a little longer.

 

Option 3 is, in my opinion, extremely risky for the XP-72. The one chance the XP has against the BV is in playing his superior HP against the chance of the BV getting good rolls on the damage in head-on attacks. Anything that takes the XP’s guns off the BV is a risk better left alone.

 

Option 4 will never happen vs a good pilot in either plane. Both planes would have to make it past the merge or else the BV is going to eat the XP alive as it tries to climb on the initial pass. Assuming everything I’ve written above is fairly accurate (experience says it is vs average pilots) nothing gets past option 2.

 

Option 5 - see option 4.

 

 

Side-note: The split and return to the merge is where I let my guns cool - I start shooting a little early to maximize my hits at distance (there’s also a +20% chance of causing crits from Charlotte on a head-to-head) and just generally whittle my target down as much as possible before closing for the real strike at less than 400m.

 

 

Cheers!

Glenn


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mnbv_fockewulfe #18 Posted 14 June 2019 - 12:10 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 13 June 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

 

Option 1 is definitely the smart play for the XP-72. A pilot with the first idea of what to do in the BV will know that s/he needs to use the BV’s ridiculous roll rate to avoid the ram so the ram is never actually going to happen assuming skilled pilots in both planes.

Yeah, I admit to this one being a long shot and happening basically never, but it is a valid tactic.

Option 2 is (without rockets) where this fight will effectively end every time. The XP-72 just is not fast enough to extend far enough out before the BV can get turned around (~4 seconds to turn around without using the turn consumable).

Really?...oh. Hmm...3.7 seconds to turn 180 degrees. Something is very wrong with the game right now. Let's for a moment ignore the fact that you're pilot died flying out the bottom of the cockpit of the plane that just disintegrated itself from an 11g turn...

If the BV waits until the merge is complete to start the turn, there is a chance that the XP-72 can extend enough to be out of range when the BV finishes the 180 degree turn. That’s why in my original flow I pull back into the merge at 400m - it starts that turn so that if the XP-72 tries to extend rather than turn, I’ll end up within 100m.

By my calculation, you end up 80m in-front of the nose of the XP if you start the turn at 400m. If you slow down it ends up looking even worse for you. If you want to get 100m behind him, you have to try begining your turn around 200m (this also coincides with my experience).

If the XP-72 does try to turn, I’m already established in a turn and about 1/2-3/4 of a turn ahead of the XP-72 and getting a gun solution is a matter of only about 1 second.

Agreed.

The risk in my play is obviously that the XP-72 gets 200m of ‘free fire’ on me as I’m not looking at him - this is minimized by actively maneuvering in the vertical plane +/- 20m to bring down the ‘72s accuracy (accuracy vs a maneuvering target is lower not considering a player’s aiming ability).

Don't really know what you mean by this. Accuracy on a maneuvering target is only dependent upon a player's aim. If anything, you're presenting a larger profile to hit. Btw, a delta of 40m of altitude basically falls within the dispersion cone of the XP72. Being able to control your altitude that precisely would require an insane amount of joystick control.

Of course, the 20mm canons have a much higher damage capability within 400m so that return to the merge at 400m also massively increases the amount of damage being dealt by the guns. Experience with this tactic says the XP-72 dies at this point, but accounting for a good pilot in the XP-72 I think it’s possible we both get past that point and of course now we’re into the kill scenario. Either XP-72 dies quickly trying to extend (because I already started my turn and will end up within 100m) or the XP-72 tries to turn and lasts a little longer.

I'll come back to this latter.

Option 3 is, in my opinion, extremely risky for the XP-72. The one chance the XP has against the BV is in playing his superior HP against the chance of the BV getting good rolls on the damage in head-on attacks. Anything that takes the XP’s guns off the BV is a risk better left alone.

 

Option 4 will never happen vs a good pilot in either plane. Both planes would have to make it past the merge or else the BV is going to eat the XP alive as it tries to climb on the initial pass. Assuming everything I’ve written above is fairly accurate (experience says it is vs average pilots) nothing gets past option 2.

Here I strongly disagree. According to the stats you posted, this is a valid tactic for the XP72. For argument's sake, let's just say that the XP-72 starts boosting as soon as you start turning. I don't know the correct value, but for the sake of argument, let's say the XP has an acceleration value of 7m/s^2. When all is said and done, the XP 72 has a final velocity of 572kmh and is at least 320m ahead of your nose (if you begin your turn at a closure distance of 200m). If we assume that you lost a modest 90kmh in your turn, that gives the XP 72 an escape delta of 172kmh. So he gains 50m of distance every second. You can easily make up for this with your better boost (i forget, but I think it was somewhere in the range of 10m/s^2). However, this does not mean it'll be easy for the XP72. It's a close margin, which requires a decently skilled pilot to pull off. But it can be done, and you don't have to be DRACS to pull it off. 

Option 5 - see option 4.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

Side-note: The split and return to the merge is where I let my guns cool - I start shooting a little early to maximize my hits at distance (there’s also a +20% chance of causing crits from Charlotte on a head-to-head) and just generally whittle my target down as much as possible before closing for the real strike at less than 400m.

 

 

Cheers!

Glenn

 


Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 


 


GeorgePatton #19 Posted 14 June 2019 - 02:54 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 14 June 2019 - 07:10 AM, said:

Option 1 is definitely the smart play for the XP-72. A pilot with the first idea of what to do in the BV will know that s/he needs to use the BV’s ridiculous roll rate to avoid the ram so the ram is never actually going to happen assuming skilled pilots in both planes.

Yeah, I admit to this one being a long shot and happening basically never, but it is a valid tactic.

Option 2 is (without rockets) where this fight will effectively end every time. The XP-72 just is not fast enough to extend far enough out before the BV can get turned around (~4 seconds to turn around without using the turn consumable).

Really?...oh. Hmm...3.7 seconds to turn 180 degrees. Something is very wrong with the game right now. Let's for a moment ignore the fact that you're pilot died flying out the bottom of the cockpit of the plane that just disintegrated itself from an 11g turn...

If the BV waits until the merge is complete to start the turn, there is a chance that the XP-72 can extend enough to be out of range when the BV finishes the 180 degree turn. That’s why in my original flow I pull back into the merge at 400m - it starts that turn so that if the XP-72 tries to extend rather than turn, I’ll end up within 100m.

By my calculation, you end up 80m in-front of the nose of the XP if you start the turn at 400m. If you slow down it ends up looking even worse for you. If you want to get 100m behind him, you have to try begining your turn around 200m (this also coincides with my experience).

I don't go to max turn rate, it's more of a lazy chandelle while I bleed speed to tighten the turn radius at the top - basically a really sloppy Immelmann to ensure that whichever way the XP turns I'll be in a position to use my roll rate to reverse and catch him before he has a chance to get a gun solution on me.

If the XP-72 does try to turn, I’m already established in a turn and about 1/2-3/4 of a turn ahead of the XP-72 and getting a gun solution is a matter of only about 1 second.

Agreed.

The risk in my play is obviously that the XP-72 gets 200m of ‘free fire’ on me as I’m not looking at him - this is minimized by actively maneuvering in the vertical plane +/- 20m to bring down the ‘72s accuracy (accuracy vs a maneuvering target is lower not considering a player’s aiming ability).

Don't really know what you mean by this. Accuracy on a maneuvering target is only dependent upon a player's aim. If anything, you're presenting a larger profile to hit. Btw, a delta of 40m of altitude basically falls within the dispersion cone of the XP72. Being able to control your altitude that precisely would require an insane amount of joystick control.

There is actually an accuracy debuff versus an actively maneuvering target - it lowers the possible hit percentage so even though you'll still be getting hits, the game won't allow you to get as many as if I were flying in a straight line without maneuvering. I use M+KB so I have pretty good control of my altitude.

Of course, the 20mm canons have a much higher damage capability within 400m so that return to the merge at 400m also massively increases the amount of damage being dealt by the guns. Experience with this tactic says the XP-72 dies at this point, but accounting for a good pilot in the XP-72 I think it’s possible we both get past that point and of course now we’re into the kill scenario. Either XP-72 dies quickly trying to extend (because I already started my turn and will end up within 100m) or the XP-72 tries to turn and lasts a little longer.

I'll come back to this latter.

Option 3 is, in my opinion, extremely risky for the XP-72. The one chance the XP has against the BV is in playing his superior HP against the chance of the BV getting good rolls on the damage in head-on attacks. Anything that takes the XP’s guns off the BV is a risk better left alone.

 

Option 4 will never happen vs a good pilot in either plane. Both planes would have to make it past the merge or else the BV is going to eat the XP alive as it tries to climb on the initial pass. Assuming everything I’ve written above is fairly accurate (experience says it is vs average pilots) nothing gets past option 2.

Here I strongly disagree. According to the stats you posted, this is a valid tactic for the XP72. For argument's sake, let's just say that the XP-72 starts boosting as soon as you start turning. I don't know the correct value, but for the sake of argument, let's say the XP has an acceleration value of 7m/s^2. When all is said and done, the XP 72 has a final velocity of 572kmh and is at least 320m ahead of your nose (if you begin your turn at a closure distance of 200m). If we assume that you lost a modest 90kmh in your turn, that gives the XP 72 an escape delta of 172kmh. So he gains 50m of distance every second. You can easily make up for this with your better boost (i forget, but I think it was somewhere in the range of 10m/s^2). However, this does not mean it'll be easy for the XP72. It's a close margin, which requires a decently skilled pilot to pull off. But it can be done, and you don't have to be DRACS to pull it off. 

As long as the XP is within 700m when I get turned around there is no escape. He's down to ~180 HP give or take according to your initial calculations which at the calculated 100 DPS means I only need 2 seconds of fire - the guns on the BV are effective to 800m which gives me that 2 seconds of shooting before the XP gets out of range. Of course, if the XP is any closer than 700m (which it will be) it's even easier.

Option 5 - see option 4.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

Side-note: The split and return to the merge is where I let my guns cool - I start shooting a little early to maximize my hits at distance (there’s also a +20% chance of causing crits from Charlotte on a head-to-head) and just generally whittle my target down as much as possible before closing for the real strike at less than 400m.

 

 


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GeorgePatton #20 Posted 14 June 2019 - 04:20 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 11 June 2019 - 06:28 PM, said:

 

Here is the relevant comparison chart with all the information I could find:

 

 

Another scenario that would probably be good for the BV...

 

Boost to ~700 km/h to increase the closure rate to 1180 km/h which gives a rate of 328 m/s which is about 3 seconds total to close the gap from 1000m to 0m. That's assuming the XP-72 doesn't boost or slow down.

 

Add in a barrel roll on the approach (starting with a descent to increase speed more and keep the closure rate up) and pull up into the full turn capability at 200m. If the XP manages to keep a gun solution through the entire maneuver (pretty much impossible) he will deal a maximum of 234 damage - leaving the BV with 46 HP. This leaves the BV in complete control of the fight - extra airspeed and much more altitude to ensure that the XP can't climb away. With the 200m turn point, the BV has a tight enough turn rate to pull up at about 200-300m away from the XP which will be perfect to take it out.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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