Jump to content


Less Cheating from the Bots, Please


  • Please log in to reply
93 replies to this topic

Mercsn #81 Posted 24 July 2019 - 07:49 AM

    Captain

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2599 battles
  • 3,289
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    04-17-2013

View PostStygian_Alchemist, on 23 July 2019 - 10:00 PM, said:

I wanted to make a note of the fact that the situation I used was specifically not involving them bum-rushing me when I spawn.



Anyway, my point is.. some of the messed up head hunter behavior can be explained by the fact that -everyone- gets to see when people spawn for a few seconds which direction they had. That's why I often head one way for about 6 seconds and then flip 180 the other.

 

Interesting clarification.  Thanks. 

 

Also, good info about letting the other planes build aggro before letting loose in a bomber.  I'll have to give that a try the next time I bother to mess with one.

 

The conversation about bots bee-lining for player, regardless of if it is the some-what explainable spawn targeting or other random-shouldn't-be-visible occasions, has me thinking about how often the bots make it from wherever they are actually to the player.  When I try to do this, it's usually nearly impossible if the player is far away because something or someone will intercept me, even if I plot a course that takes me around busy sections while I try to get to the player I'm looking for.   Blue team bots seem to allow the red head-hunting bot to do their thing.  I've even called for f3 or f7 and had a response from an un-engaged that then wouldn't actually come help.

 

THAT, be it bugged coding or bad game design, is cheating: blue bots working with red bots to affect the shooting down of a blue player.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

trikke #82 Posted 24 July 2019 - 10:55 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 3294 battles
  • 3,218
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View PostMercsn, on 24 July 2019 - 03:49 AM, said:

THAT, be it bugged coding or bad game design, is cheating: blue bots working with red bots to affect the shooting down of a blue player.


That can't be a thing.     


What would be WG's motivation for all of that coding required, for -really- no benefit to them?

though I could see a benefit to me, if WG has chosen to send headhunter bots after superpilots, again and again


but...  I'm afraid it's not working, WG


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

Mercsn #83 Posted 03 August 2019 - 09:18 AM

    Captain

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2599 battles
  • 3,289
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    04-17-2013
Bots of all tiers refusing to obey commands (or use good priority logic), thereby aiding the enemy team.

All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

trikke #84 Posted 03 August 2019 - 09:19 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 3294 battles
  • 3,218
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View PostMercsn, on 03 August 2019 - 05:18 AM, said:

Bots of both teams refusing to obey commands (or use good priority logic), thereby aiding the enemy team.


Fify.      it's not cheating... it's the bots just doing what they're programmed to do, for both teams


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

Mercsn #85 Posted 04 August 2019 - 05:49 AM

    Captain

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2599 battles
  • 3,289
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    04-17-2013
Instantaneous and laser guided flak.  AA guns shooting into flak gun altitude.

All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Mercsn #86 Posted 04 August 2019 - 05:50 AM

    Captain

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2599 battles
  • 3,289
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    04-17-2013

View Posttrikke, on 03 August 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:


Fify.      it's not cheating... it's the bots just doing what they're programmed to do, for both teams

 

Bot behaviors aren't balanced per team. If one team's bots are more aggressive or having better target priority or better following player commands, then that mismatch in bot behavior is, essentially, a "cheat".

 

It's no different than if I loaded up a piece of software that would allow me to give the bots increased aggressiveness or better target priority.  The devs loaded that in.  But, since it's mismatched between teams, it's a cheat.

 


Edited by Mercsn, 04 August 2019 - 05:51 AM.

All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

FernandoSch #87 Posted 04 August 2019 - 06:27 PM

    Airman Basic

  • Member
  • 1362 battles
  • 9
  • [BANDI] BANDI
  • Member since:
    10-18-2017
there's a cheating when you use a bomber, players and bots (enemies) working togheter to kill me, or a the same bot kills me twice? there's must be a mod or cheat

trikke #88 Posted 06 August 2019 - 03:05 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 3294 battles
  • 3,218
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

there might be misinformation in this thread which might be scaring new folks away, probably


I say probably, because there's no way to prove anything anyone here is posting as facts is actually a fact


that being said, crazy tin hat conspiracy theorists have been proven correct before


just not very often


if you can force WG to confess, then I will apologize profusely


We've been friends a long time...  please please call me out when I go too far, brother?


 


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

BB3_Oregon_Steel #89 Posted 06 August 2019 - 07:31 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 1163 battles
  • 357
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    10-26-2015

Ok, Biplane Girl here wading into the deep water of the pool. 

 

*eeek*

 

I can buy mismanagement, I can buy systems that don't always work as intended, I can buy systems that are poorly designed and I can totally buy that at times all of these can come together to make it more difficult for a particular player to win during a typical battle.  I can buy marketing decisions designed to entice players to part with their hard earned cash, I can buy people making the game more challenging for people who are not willing to lay down cold hard cash to buy some of the nifty bennies that are available.

 

What I do NOT buy is the idea that WG is purposefully "cheating" you in the game, targeting you or a group of you's specifically so that others in another group can benefit.  If you are idiotic enough to classify inadequate designs or systems as "cheating" they you should probably google it or find one of those dictionary things so you have the knowledge to know what "cheating" actual is and what it is not. 

 

Cheating is NOT anything you think is unfair or anything which you perceive (rightly or wrongly) puts you at a disadvantage. That's not what it means so please, just stop already. 


"Don't mess with me because I can squish you like a bug, that is If I should decide to notice your existence in the first place".  

 

Yes, it's haughty and its arrogant but you're a battleship with 16 inch guns and Britannia Rules the Waves.  Maybe a bit of arrogance in this case is appropriate.  


Stygian_Alchemist #90 Posted 06 August 2019 - 09:18 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 9153 battles
  • 1,720
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    10-08-2018
I've still yet to find any way the bots are specifically cheating, personally.

I will admit when I first started playing I thought things were -way- more stacked against me.. and my win-rate (at the time) reflected that as well as my general feeling toward the game itself. I spent dozens of hours watching replays and even more flying and experimenting in battles with how bots behaved. At the time, I was convinced I could prove the game was rigged. Instead, I discovered most of the bot behavior patterns and why they act as funky as they do. My daily win-rate the last several months has hovered in the 70-80% range depending on the day. I credit that with having happened because I studied bot behavior so much.

Do I see the bots do strange and inexplicable things now? Not generally, no. Watching replays/etc. I discovered there is almost always a chain of events and decision points that led a bot to being goofy or suddenly being godlike in the scores. Most of the time bots have high scores through sheer dumb luck.. nothing ever engaged them. For that matter, every once in a while I too will have a match where not a single freaking bot engages me or comes near me. Because their is still a randomness factor in each of their engagement decisions it would appear. That means, to my view, that rngeezus plays a big enough role in bot behavior to make them -seem- completely bugged and weird... just requires enough odd rolls in a row.. and apparently their code doesn't have limited to keep bots from getting perfect rolls repeatedly in a row or perfect roll failures repeatedly.

I suppose even that last part makes sense.. as humans do the same. In that regard, that's the most fascinating part about the bots. They're about as effective and intelligent as a bad to mediocre player. That includes watching you spawn and bee-lining for you.

As to coming clear across the map... If I am going full tilt across a map under boost things will often not engage with me in my heavy because by the time they lock target and turn to me I am out of their aggro range. I imagine that works similarly for bot heavies.. other planes.. I dunno. I watched a replay once for an 1101 bot that just appeared out of nowhere... except he didn't. LIttle sucker flew across the map and somehow timed it in such a way that he was never in aggro range of any specific other bot.

The other thing that seems to make it look like bots are all funky? Latency. Any latency. At all. 

And finally.. the altitude thing....

I can get to about 20% above my service ceiling in any plane. I can get well into the red and if I have enough boost.... many planes (especially at high tier) do not seem to be affected by it except their speed loss.. but not control surface loss. What that means is... your optimal altitudes and your service ceiling? Seems to be that they're more... guidelines.. than the actual capacity of the plane. Why do I bring that up? Because people have consistently accused bots of cheating altitude... except I can match those claimed altitudes/etc.

Strangely, I don't think WG has made their AI's considerations super complicated or super sophisticated. I believe them when they say that player W/R etc. aren't considered and the bots don't get special abilities... Why? Because extreme simplicity of the bots would give us all the odd behaviors we've seen. High complexity stuff that has been accused? We'd probably -never- be able to see it or prove it or it would be -far- more obvious. Instead, I think a lot of people have given WG too much credit in thinking that they've programmed "cheater" bots and haven't gone for the simple answer: The BOTS are that goofily simple themselves. Combine that with long experimentation allowing me to re-create all their weirdo bot moves, altitudes, etc and I've come to the conclusion that you just have to learn how to manipulate the bots with your flight pattern/firing/etc. Ive started using my guns to herd stuff when I -way- outside max range. Because me opening up to teh left, right, up, down, whatever of them seems to make the bots roll away from it.. as an example.

Mercsn #91 Posted 11 August 2019 - 03:47 PM

    Captain

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2599 battles
  • 3,289
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    04-17-2013

BB3, Styg, I value both your opinion and the time you spent adding them here.

 

However, when I can draw a solo match vs bots and do absolutely nothing (because my client crashed) and see my bits pull a 4 of 5 by the time I load back into the match and 5 of 5 before I can get from bfe (where the plane flew while I was crashed out) to the last red sector, something is broken.

 

My bots beat the crap out the enemy bots even though they had a power play until I loaded in. 

 

So, I'm not saying, "oooh, meanie bots don't let me win".  I'm saying that the way the bots are imbalanced and the way their stats appear to increase as a % of aircraft and weapon performance is, in effect, an ai cheat regardless of who's team is benefitting or being penalized by such. 

 

If this was a pve coop game, I could tolerate it, but still wouldn't like bots having access to essentially cheat mechanics. In a "player versus player" game mode, bots having access to a different set of stats and rules than players is simply unacceptable. 

 

 

 

 


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

losttwo #92 Posted 11 August 2019 - 04:21 PM

    which way do we go?

  • Community Ace
  • 3911 battles
  • 13,644
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    05-15-2012

I do not know how many of you have noticed. 

The major problem is that the ADA are not distributed equally when arriving at a neutral sector. 

Sometimes the ADA will be on one side or the other. Sometimes closer to you other times closer to the enemy. 

This gives an advantage to one team for capturing a sector. 

Depending on your bots this will also provide an advantage that seems unfair and OP. 

More so when your bots have the opportunity to engage the ADA first and then the Red comes in shooting 

and clearing the tails of the ADA. 

 

Watch for it and learn which maps and spawn points give what advantage then go for the win. 

No I do not know ever map yet but I do have a couple of them down for consistent wins. 


Edited by losttwo, 11 August 2019 - 04:22 PM.


Stygian_Alchemist #93 Posted 14 August 2019 - 01:25 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 9153 battles
  • 1,720
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    10-08-2018

View PostMercsn, on 11 August 2019 - 09:47 AM, said:

BB3, Styg, I value both your opinion and the time you spent adding them here.

 

However, when I can draw a solo match vs bots and do absolutely nothing (because my client crashed) and see my bits pull a 4 of 5 by the time I load back into the match and 5 of 5 before I can get from bfe (where the plane flew while I was crashed out) to the last red sector, something is broken.

 

My bots beat the crap out the enemy bots even though they had a power play until I loaded in. 

 

So, I'm not saying, "oooh, meanie bots don't let me win".  I'm saying that the way the bots are imbalanced and the way their stats appear to increase as a % of aircraft and weapon performance is, in effect, an ai cheat regardless of who's team is benefitting or being penalized by such. 

 

If this was a pve coop game, I could tolerate it, but still wouldn't like bots having access to essentially cheat mechanics. In a "player versus player" game mode, bots having access to a different set of stats and rules than players is simply unacceptable. 

 

 

 

 

I can see that.

I'd still just call it lazy/poor game design as opposed to cheating as its designed as part of the current rules of the game for good or ill. 

I do get your point though!! :) 



trikke #94 Posted 14 August 2019 - 02:21 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 3294 battles
  • 3,218
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

so proud of our community 

 

able to discuss a divisive issue while remaining civil 

 

where else in the world is this even possible 


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users