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Less Cheating from the Bots, Please


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Booze_Morgan #61 Posted 13 July 2019 - 10:09 PM

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George, there is no "cheating."  And if there is unfair (omg the F word) advantage in the programming, it is gonna be about impossible to prove or show.  Most of this is the usual lack of us keeping our necks rotating to keep appraised of the tactical situation.  

 

I personally refuse to advocate dumbing down of the bots, or anything in this game (almost) as it's been dumbed down plenty enough.  Just ..... NO.

 

And as usual, the only solution to any of this is a significantly higher human population, and we all know unless someone comes up with a brilliant idea in the game play along with ADVERTISING to get more people in WoWP from places besides ships and tanks, complaints about the bots are gonna continue.

 

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GeorgePatton #62 Posted 13 July 2019 - 10:14 PM

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I completely agree - bots cannot cheat. That being said, there are occasionally bugs in any software that may make unusual things happen. I prefer to ask for supporting data rather than tell someone that they're wrong.

 

 

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Booze_Morgan #63 Posted 13 July 2019 - 10:32 PM

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Yeah, I've been watching for that data also.  There is none.  But people can't just relax and fly and fight and improve.  I understand, I guess, the frustration with the concept of "winning" WG has thrown on us now, and it seems the normal response is to find outside reasons (excuses) we cannot experience the former type of "win," or the usual type of win we shoot for in about anything.  

 

So, what is winning now? Damage? Kills?  Some are winning more battles than the rest of us, but most of us are 50/50, 55/45, type win ratios with battles.  But that's not this thread.

 

Nothing more for now.

 

Booze

 


Edited by Booze_Morgan, 13 July 2019 - 10:33 PM.

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Booze_Morgan #64 Posted 14 July 2019 - 12:41 AM

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Testing
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GeorgePatton #65 Posted 14 July 2019 - 12:44 AM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 13 July 2019 - 07:41 PM, said:

Testing


Not sure what you were testing, but I'm reading you!

 

 

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Booze_Morgan #66 Posted 14 July 2019 - 12:46 AM

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Roger that!

 

The thread disappeared from my new content page, so I put it back. 

 

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Mercsn #67 Posted 18 July 2019 - 08:24 AM

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Tier 7 Ki-93 bot, in tier 8 match, cheating with aimbot and homing bullets versus evading targets.

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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

CorvusCorvax #68 Posted 18 July 2019 - 04:29 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 18 July 2019 - 08:24 AM, said:

Tier 7 Ki-93 bot, in tier 8 match, cheating with aimbot and homing bullets versus evading targets.


You're just now noticing that bots with big cannons ALWAYS get hits?  How we, as humans, have to work like the devil to make an Me-262 hit anything, but the dang bots are magic with the MK-108s?  You do realize that they are literally aimbots, right?



CorvusCorvax #69 Posted 20 July 2019 - 12:52 AM

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OK, the one that bugs me are the Japanese MRF bots that can out-turn me in my LF, no matter what tricks I throw down.

Mercsn #70 Posted 21 July 2019 - 06:52 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 July 2019 - 10:29 AM, said:


You're just now noticing that bots with big cannons ALWAYS get hits?  How we, as humans, have to work like the devil to make an Me-262 hit anything, but the dang bots are magic with the MK-108s?  You do realize that they are literally aimbots, right?

 

I'm definitely NOT just now noticing it. This just happened to be when I added it to my running tally of cheats that the bots get.


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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Stygian_Alchemist #71 Posted 21 July 2019 - 07:31 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 13 July 2019 - 03:32 PM, said:

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything - I'm looking for data. Is it possible that there was an opposing aircraft (either player or bot) who could see you but you couldn't see? That would easily explain this scenario IMO. AFAIK the only way to be sure of this would be if you could see where all of the opposing aircraft were, their view range, your view range, spotting distances, etc.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn



This is about the only thing I've seen in here that for certain happens in my experience.

I have literally been out in the middle of no-where.. near NO BOTS, near NO Humans, near NO ADA (as in my radar circle when you hit alt has a good 2 block space between it and anything even a node rim) and watched heavy fighter bots suddenly bee-line straight at me. I think every bomber pilot has experienced that at one juncture or another. Wasn't using boost, wasn't using turrets and I'd been out there a while circling while they were doing something else before suddenly bee-lining at me

It's been a known bug before even that WG keeps saying they've fixed.. but many of us still observe the behavior from time to time. Certainly less than it was, but still happens.



Mercsn #72 Posted 22 July 2019 - 04:44 AM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 13 July 2019 - 03:32 PM, said:

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything - I'm looking for data. Is it possible that there was an opposing aircraft (either player or bot) who could see you but you couldn't see? That would easily explain this scenario IMO. AFAIK the only way to be sure of this would be if you could see where all of the opposing aircraft were, their view range, your view range, spotting distances, etc.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

Glenn, I've known you a looong, time.  It would be difficult for you to "pick a fight with me". 

 

View PostStygian_Alchemist, on 21 July 2019 - 01:31 PM, said:



This is about the only thing I've seen in here that for certain happens in my experience.

I have literally been out in the middle of no-where.. near NO BOTS, near NO Humans, near NO ADA (as in my radar circle when you hit alt has a good 2 block space between it and anything even a node rim) and watched heavy fighter bots suddenly bee-line straight at me. I think every bomber pilot has experienced that at one juncture or another. Wasn't using boost, wasn't using turrets and I'd been out there a while circling while they were doing something else before suddenly bee-lining at me

It's been a known bug before even that WG keeps saying they've fixed.. but many of us still observe the behavior from time to time. Certainly less than it was, but still happens.

 

But, exactly as Stygian describes it, I've seen happen several times.  This is particularly evident (in my most recent return to the game) when I've tried bombers and have a heavy fighter bee-line for me at the start and as soon as I respawn when the spawn zone is buffered by 2 blue zones and no enemy aircraft air present, not even bombers at high altitude over the blue zones. 

 

If the ai can "see" players anywhere on the map, it's cheating.  Regardless if it's bad code, bugs, or #RussianLogic game design, if the bots can do it and players can't:  it's cheating.   You guys that say the bots can't "cheat" will understand when you're hunting for EMP devices as we struggle to take back the world from the ai we spawned since humans are too lazy and/or too stupid too wipe our own asses.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

CorvusCorvax #73 Posted 23 July 2019 - 12:18 AM

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View PostMercsn, on 22 July 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

 

Glenn, I've known you a looong, time.  It would be difficult for you to "pick a fight with me". 

 

 

But, exactly as Stygian describes it, I've seen happen several times.  This is particularly evident (in my most recent return to the game) when I've tried bombers and have a heavy fighter bee-line for me at the start and as soon as I respawn when the spawn zone is buffered by 2 blue zones and no enemy aircraft air present, not even bombers at high altitude over the blue zones. 

 

If the ai can "see" players anywhere on the map, it's cheating.  Regardless if it's bad code, bugs, or #RussianLogic game design, if the bots can do it and players can't:  it's cheating.   You guys that say the bots can't "cheat" will understand when you're hunting for EMP devices as we struggle to take back the world from the ai we spawned since humans are too lazy and/or too stupid too wipe our own asses.


Well, the differences between a crude AI programmed into an arcade game and a situation like Terminator or The Matrix is like apples and thermonuclear weapons.  I mean, I completely understand your frustration, because as a bomber pilot and a heavy fighter pilot, the tricks bots use to make your life harder can be annoying.  But it's programming.  They cannot exceed their programming, so it is on us to figure out what they can, and cannot, do. 

 

Then take appropriate action.



Mercsn #74 Posted 23 July 2019 - 12:17 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 22 July 2019 - 06:18 PM, said:


Well, the differences between a crude AI programmed into an arcade game and a situation like Terminator or The Matrix is like apples and thermonuclear weapons.  I mean, I completely understand your frustration, because as a bomber pilot and a heavy fighter pilot, the tricks bots use to make your life harder can be annoying.  But it's programming.  They cannot exceed their programming, so it is on us to figure out what they can, and cannot, do. 

 

Then take appropriate action.

 

This is actually my whole point.  They are programmed to cheat.  This was, once upon a time, the only way game writers could really control "difficulty" of a game.  These days, it's lazy and a cop-out.  Sure, the bots can't exceed their programming, but if they're programmed to cheat...they're still cheating.  This wouldn't be such a problem if the game would default to co-op during times when PvP wasn't possible due to low population ("PvP" is "player versus player", for our Russian developer friends who don't understand what "PvP" is). Then, humans would be able to use teamwork to overcome whatever cheating the bots are doing.  Now, we have cheating bots deciding matches and someone being crowned a "winner" and some other player(s) being told they've "lost", when the players largely had nothing to do with the outcome.  THAT'S where I have a problem with bots cheating, as their coding permits.


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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

trikke #75 Posted 23 July 2019 - 09:48 PM

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personally, I really can't understand why this thread is still getting new posts


WG isn't going to make any changes unless those changes make them more money


turning bots into pushovers wouldn't be helping them, they actually want the battles over more quickly


lower tier bots are less bloodthirsty, if that helps any.     just saying.    ;) lol


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #76 Posted 23 July 2019 - 10:04 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 23 July 2019 - 04:48 PM, said:

personally, I really can't understand why this thread is still getting new posts


WG isn't going to make any changes unless those changes make them more money


turning bots into pushovers wouldn't be helping them, they actually want the battles over more quickly


lower tier bots are less bloodthirsty, if that helps any.     just saying.    ;) lol

creating mayhem and fixing nothing is their wheelhouse


if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


Mercsn #77 Posted 23 July 2019 - 10:12 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 23 July 2019 - 03:48 PM, said:

personally, I really can't understand why this thread is still getting new posts


WG isn't going to make any changes unless those changes make them more money


turning bots into pushovers wouldn't be helping them, they actually want the battles over more quickly


lower tier bots are less bloodthirsty, if that helps any.     just saying.    ;) lol

 

Documentary and associated commentary and community opinion for posterity.  There's some useful info in here for when the 3.0 team decides to Make WoWP great again.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #78 Posted 23 July 2019 - 11:15 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 23 July 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

 

Documentary and associated commentary and community opinion for posterity.  There's some useful info in here for when the 3.0 team decides to Make WoWP great again.

my so xcided

my gunna vote 4X


if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


GeorgePatton #79 Posted 23 July 2019 - 11:22 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 23 July 2019 - 07:17 AM, said:

 

This is actually my whole point.  They are programmed to cheat.  This was, once upon a time, the only way game writers could really control "difficulty" of a game.  These days, it's lazy and a cop-out.  Sure, the bots can't exceed their programming, but if they're programmed to cheat...they're still cheating.  This wouldn't be such a problem if the game would default to co-op during times when PvP wasn't possible due to low population ("PvP" is "player versus player", for our Russian developer friends who don't understand what "PvP" is). Then, humans would be able to use teamwork to overcome whatever cheating the bots are doing.  Now, we have cheating bots deciding matches and someone being crowned a "winner" and some other player(s) being told they've "lost", when the players largely had nothing to do with the outcome.  THAT'S where I have a problem with bots cheating, as their coding permits.


I saw your previous post (and gave it a +1) but didn't want to throw the quote here as it would just encumber the whole thing. :)

 

Since I made my initial post, I've seen some situations I'll call 'sketchy' with bots targeting me as well. It feels in line with what you and Stygian are saying.

 

It would be cool to see what would happen if WG gave the bots no extra input or anything and just ran them on a neural network...

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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Stygian_Alchemist #80 Posted 24 July 2019 - 04:00 AM

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I wanted to make a note of the fact that the situation I used was specifically not involving them bum-rushing me when I spawn.

The reason for that is that when someone or something spawns, even back at its home spawn... you get to see it for a few seconds and what heading it takes. That means it is not unreasonable to assume the heavy sees you spawn, like a player would, then heads your way and after a minute you're spotted before it loses interest.

I also wanted to note that the AI bots seem to work on a "threat table" system to at least a limited extent. What that means is that every point you score and every bullet you successfully blast through the cockpit of the enemy increases your position on the threat table of any boss to "witness" it. I imagine dependent on the bot's personality it handles that differently, but for bombers especially it is important to note that this exists and that if you bomb -too- fast and happen to get aggro personality heavy bots on the other team.. they -will- try to headhunt you into the ground. That means you have to take a more measured approach to your initial damage output to give the rest of the team a second to build their threat levels in the table and keep more aggro off of you. Each bot also seems to have a plane type priority list and that is an important thing to learn and understand in looking at these headhunter bots, and that doesn't include just for bomber or gaa pilots, but everyone honestly. This is also the reason why dying is sometimes recommended as beneficial to a bomber pilot, because it lowers your position on the threat table. Not literally, but by taking you off the field and giving your teammates a chance to increase their threats to where probably they won't headhunt you. It also resets your boost.. and in planes with -long- boost tanks that's a nice thing sometimes.

Anyway, my point is.. some of the messed up head hunter behavior can be explained by the fact that -everyone- gets to see when people spawn for a few seconds which direction they had. That's why I often head one way for about 6 seconds and then flip 180 the other.




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