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Just a warnig and head up we seem to have a team killer on our hands


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BB3_Oregon_Steel #101 Posted 03 August 2019 - 11:22 PM

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View PostStygian_Alchemist, on 02 August 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

 Also, its -far- harder to accidentally hit someone in WoWS than WoWP. WoWP it just requires a bot to stupidly fly between the target you're lasering and you. In WoWs the fire rates, etc. are such that hitting something is -usually- on purpose. So I'd say there'd have to be some rejiggering comparatively anyway, but I deffo get it =D

 

True, but I wouldn't be so sure that would be a significant factor in whether it would be workable or not. 

 

Essentially in ships, I don't get a penalty unless I hit a friendly and do significant damage.  I've actually accidentally hit a friendly ship with a torpedo and not gotten a penalty because it didn't do enough damage.  I would hazard to guess that it's actually easier to significantly wreak that kind of mayhem on friendlies in ships than it is in planes.

 

Why?  Well ... 

 

1) Torpedoes:  These nasties don't care what they hit and cause lots of exploderation when they do.  Most of the time hitting a friendly with your torpedoes is because the launching vessel is being careless.  In other words they are trying to hit red ships when friendly ships are between them and their target.  This is a BAD IDEA but it happens anyway even to the best of us.  When this does go sideways, it's not that uncommon to sink the friendly ship outright or cripple it.  

 

2) Binocular mode: Like the zoom in mode in planes but since you are usually fighting at range, it gets used a LOT since it's the best way to consistently lead and adjust your target as well as compensation for any changes of course of speed the target may make.  Problem is it's lousy for seeing things up close to you and there are times when you've not paying close enough attention and a friendly ship will come alongside close to you and you send a full salvo of 16 inch shells into it at point blank range.  Worse, if you're firing HE shells you can set the hapless friendly on fire which is the burning damage gift that just keeps on giving. 

 

On the other hand, if I accidentally run into someone or a few of my shells go awry, I won't cause enough damage to earn a pink ship, it just might get a small penalty on my score for that game. 

 

I could be wrong, or maybe it's just the tier I'm playing, but a bot or friendly crossing my line of fire in most cases may get damaged, but it's going to have to stay there for a bit with me pumping shells and bullets into it before it would register as significant enough to create a penalty.  In my mind at least, its a lot easier to accidentally torpedo a friendly in ships than it is to cause massive accidental damage in planes. 

 

So, let's say I'm wrong about that, that in higher tiers a moment of accidental circumstance can cause grave damage to a friendly.  How does the system in ships deal with that. 

 

Well, you get a pink ship. Based on the amount of friendly fire damage you caused, you will have a pink ship for a certain number of games.  During that time, if you cause damage to a friendly that damage will be reflected back on your ship, if that damage is significant enough it will extend your days in a pink ship. 

 

If you go through the "pink stage" for the required number of games, your ship becomes green again and all is well.  However if you are consistently causing damage to friendlies, you get banished to Co-op (think Training flights against the bots here).  If you are clean for a certain number of games in Co-op, you are let back into the other modes where you can again stay clean and regain your green ship status. 

 

If, on the other hand, you keep TKing the bots you end up on WG's list of players to potentially ban and you gain the attention of a live human.  Everything up to that point is automatic. 

 

The problems with the system are perceptional.  People get outraged because "He turned into my torpedoes, HE should be the one getting the penalty" or someone just doesn't like the color pink. Not much of a way to avoid that one coz people are going to be peoples. 

 

There's holes and alternate ways of being a team killer.  You can decide to only Team Kill now and then so you might be sailing around in a pink ship for a long time but you never incur the penalties.  You can TK in other ways like getting on all players chat and telling the red ships where all the green ships (especially the carriers) are and what they are doing. You can spend all of your time bombarding a rock effectively making you more visible to the red ships and taking yourself out of the game.  

 

However, most players don't bother with that and that's where game replays and support tickets come in.  Hence the support people are either dealing with the worst cases or the stuff that leaks about the edges while the automated system does the heavy lifting.  Btw, this system is also used for AFK players. 

 

Point is, in order to be punished by the system, you have to regularly and reasonably consistently be doing a prohibited activity and that activity has to be significant for the system to react to you.  

 

I totally get the point of not trusting the coding team for planes with implementing something like this.  They've just barely managed to push Barron Blackscreen and Sideways Flying Plane mostly out of the game.  Implementing something like this might just be beyond their capabilities with the people they have and the resources they have to dedicate to the project.  It just might not be worth their time. 

 

However, beyond that, it's a system that works and, despite the protests over pink ships, it works well.  I would not be concerned whether a system like what I've just described can work in planes because I don't see any outliers in Planes which would cause it not to work.  I actually think it might even work better in Planes environment than it does in ships.  My concern would be effective implementation and also whether the problem is pervasive enough that it's something that actually needs to be solved. 


Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel, 04 August 2019 - 01:43 AM.

"Don't mess with me because I can squish you like a bug, that is If I should decide to notice your existence in the first place".  

 

Yes, it's haughty and its arrogant but you're a battleship with 16 inch guns and Britannia Rules the Waves.  Maybe a bit of arrogance in this case is appropriate.  


Captain_Underpants53 #102 Posted 04 August 2019 - 12:15 AM

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View PostDeltavee, on 03 August 2019 - 05:05 PM, said:

 

You two might consider that there are many others that come just to enjoy themselves that are not as heavily invested in the game as you two seem to be.  

Posting intimidating pieces on how or how not to play does not gain either compliance or respect.  In fact, at least in my case it has exactly the opposite effect but then I'm like that.
If you want people to play in a fashion you espouse, take them one-by-one to a training centre and indoctrinate them there.  
If you want to have players play the game your way, flight up with like-minded individuals to apply your kriegstechniken as you wish.
Casual players and new players don't need this from you.
It's a game.


Yes, you are correct, it is just a game.  However, I think MOST newer players, at least, would not only benefit from heeding this advice but would also desire to see it. 

 

Could it have been phrased a little more diplomatically?  Yes.  Is it wrong?  No.

 

As an example, I notice that most new players do not realize that as you advance up the tiers and gain ever more powerful guns, the ground targets also gain hit points and defense.  So that new fighter they got with the uber blasto guns on it STILL will not do squat against ground targets.

 

Taking someone new into the training room has drawbacks.  For one thing, it is only one new player.  What of the dozens of new players gaming in ignorance?  On the forum at least more than one will see advice.  The other drawback is the often prohibitive silver cost (for a newer player) that comes with training room battles.  No income plus outgoing silver equals eventual bankruptcy.   I think the single most useful thing you can do for a new player is direct them to the forum.  The smart ones will listen.

 

Too me, it all boils down to primary and secondary abilities.  Every plane class in the game, except the fighter, can be effective at attacking both ground targets and aerial targets.  Does that mean doing nothing in a battle but attacking ground targets in your heavy or multi role?  Nope, those are secondary roles for those classes.  Does it mean that your GAA or bomber should fly around doing nothing but attacking aerial targets?  Nope, again secondary.

 

All that being said I fully agree that people have the absolute freedom to play the way they want to and be as dumb about the game as they want to be.  With some, the best you can hope for is that they are on the other side.


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Deltavee #103 Posted 04 August 2019 - 07:26 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 03 August 2019 - 07:15 PM, said:


Yes, you are correct, it is just a game.  However, I think MOST newer players, at least, would not only benefit from heeding this advice but would also desire to see it. 

 

Could it have been phrased a little more diplomatically?  Yes.  Is it wrong?  No.

 

As an example, I notice that most new players do not realize that as you advance up the tiers and gain ever more powerful guns, the ground targets also gain hit points and defense.  So that new fighter they got with the uber blasto guns on it STILL will not do squat against ground targets.

 

Taking someone new into the training room has drawbacks.  For one thing, it is only one new player.  What of the dozens of new players gaming in ignorance?  On the forum at least more than one will see advice.  The other drawback is the often prohibitive silver cost (for a newer player) that comes with training room battles.  No income plus outgoing silver equals eventual bankruptcy.   I think the single most useful thing you can do for a new player is direct them to the forum.  The smart ones will listen.

 

Too me, it all boils down to primary and secondary abilities.  Every plane class in the game, except the fighter, can be effective at attacking both ground targets and aerial targets.  Does that mean doing nothing in a battle but attacking ground targets in your heavy or multi role?  Nope, those are secondary roles for those classes.  Does it mean that your GAA or bomber should fly around doing nothing but attacking aerial targets?  Nope, again secondary.

 

All that being said I fully agree that people have the absolute freedom to play the way they want to and be as dumb about the game as they want to be.  With some, the best you can hope for is that they are on the other side.

 

"Could it have been phrased a little more diplomatically?  Yes.  Is it wrong?  No."

 

I concur, Cap. 

The advice is sound but I absolutely despise authoritarianism or elitism in any circumstance, be it game or RL and that's the way both came across to me.  Both of those attitudes will always be in my wheelhouse.  Attitude counts for a lot when imparting knowledge.

 

Good hunting,


Edited by Deltavee, 04 August 2019 - 07:27 PM.

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trikke #104 Posted 06 August 2019 - 02:43 AM

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View PostDeltavee, on 04 August 2019 - 03:26 PM, said:

 

"Could it have been phrased a little more diplomatically?  Yes.  Is it wrong?  No."

 

I concur, Cap. 

The advice is sound but I absolutely despise authoritarianism or elitism in any circumstance, be it game or RL and that's the way both came across to me.  Both of those attitudes will always be in my wheelhouse.  Attitude counts for a lot when imparting knowledge.

 

Good hunting,

 

I reread it twice...   I'm not concerned about the tone of either post


because it's just the tone, not the content, that troubles you.     Right?

Not trying to be disagreeable, I just don't agree.        Maybe I missed something

 


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Deltavee #105 Posted 07 August 2019 - 12:38 AM

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View Posttrikke, on 05 August 2019 - 09:43 PM, said:

 

I reread it twice...   I'm not concerned about the tone of either post


because it's just the tone, not the content, that troubles you.     Right?

Not trying to be disagreeable, I just don't agree.        Maybe I missed something

 

 

Describing people who do not hew to the accepted wisdom as potential "idiots" doesn't do a lot for me.

Not taken as you being disagreeable at all, trikke. 

We all have our own perspectives on what we see and interpretations will vary from one person to another.  I simply expressed my perspective and I've noted a few other members who didn't see the offering as entirely kosher either, that's all.

 

Beauty is in the eye and all that.

Cheers


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trikke #106 Posted 07 August 2019 - 02:10 AM

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ty, brother
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WhoaBlackBetty #107 Posted 07 August 2019 - 02:34 AM

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He was on the other side in tier 5, no proclamations, and neither did I ever see him in the battle.

 

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crzyhawk #108 Posted 07 August 2019 - 12:24 PM

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View PostDeltavee, on 03 August 2019 - 05:05 PM, said:

 

You two might consider that there are many others that come just to enjoy themselves that are not as heavily invested in the game as you two seem to be.  

Posting intimidating pieces on how or how not to play does not gain either compliance or respect.  In fact, at least in my case it has exactly the opposite effect but then I'm like that.
If you want people to play in a fashion you espouse, take them one-by-one to a training centre and indoctrinate them there.  
If you want to have players play the game your way, flight up with like-minded individuals to apply your kriegstechniken as you wish.
Casual players and new players don't need this from you.
It's a game.


What exactly was wrong with my post?  You put me on blast and say I am saying something intimidating, but I don't see it.  I read my post and I am seeing "yeah I am not interested in killing ground targets", please let me know how I am running people down so I can adjust my communication style.


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USA: XP31; F11C-2; YP29; F2A-1; XF4F-3; Hawk 81-A1; XF4U-1; P39N; F4U-1,-4ROC: Hawk II; Ki43c; Tomahawk IIb; P51K |

UK: Goldfinch; Type 224; Wirraway; Hurricane I; Boomerang; Venom; Spitfire I, Ia, XIV; Tornado; Mustang Ia; Japan: A6M2; A6M3 (exp); Ki61 |

Germany: FW56; AR67; BF109B, E-3, G; Spitfire V DB605 | USSR: LaGG 3(4); P40 M-105 |  EU: B534; S199


trikke #109 Posted 07 August 2019 - 12:44 PM

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sometimes... and only sometimes, elite pilots do lean toward brag-boasting in the forums


it comes from the same place that makes them great pilots... confidence


but I didn't see that in either post    sorry, brother


I'd pay a fortune for a case of their bottled self confidence


 

 


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crzyhawk #110 Posted 07 August 2019 - 11:06 PM

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^^

I wish I was good enough to be cocky.  I run into enough good players to remind me of my place.  I don't see anything cocky in my post either.  I wasted a lot of time strafing ground targets with .303s, and it took me too long to figure out that I should focus on doing my job, not another plane's job.  Multi-roles, killing ground targets is part of the job.  When I fly multi-roles I feel like I have to attack ground targets whether I /really/ want to or not...it's part of my job to help the team by doing so.

 

Mustang Ia...I don't have to feel guilt about focusing on air-to-air.  That's my job.  I feel like the Ia is less of a team play aircraft than the multi-role is; generally speaking Multi-roles have the tools to do what needs doing.  I do feel guilty too when I am not attacking ground targets in a MR.  If I pick the plane type, I should be trying to do what the plane is expected to do.

 

Nothing self-confident there; I never said I am good at air-to-air combat just that it's my preference.


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USA: XP31; F11C-2; YP29; F2A-1; XF4F-3; Hawk 81-A1; XF4U-1; P39N; F4U-1,-4ROC: Hawk II; Ki43c; Tomahawk IIb; P51K |

UK: Goldfinch; Type 224; Wirraway; Hurricane I; Boomerang; Venom; Spitfire I, Ia, XIV; Tornado; Mustang Ia; Japan: A6M2; A6M3 (exp); Ki61 |

Germany: FW56; AR67; BF109B, E-3, G; Spitfire V DB605 | USSR: LaGG 3(4); P40 M-105 |  EU: B534; S199


Deltavee #111 Posted 08 August 2019 - 12:47 AM

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View Postcrzyhawk, on 07 August 2019 - 07:24 AM, said:


What exactly was wrong with my post?  You put me on blast and say I am saying something intimidating, but I don't see it.  I read my post and I am seeing "yeah I am not interested in killing ground targets", please let me know how I am running people down so I can adjust my communication style.

 

crzyhawk,

So I re-read everything and yes, you're right.  You just got dragged into the trail of another comment while I was posting on the fly.  That was negligent of me.  The mitigating circumstances are irrelevant.

Mea culpa.

The fault is mine and so you are offered a full apology.

:facepalm:


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Captain_Underpants53 #112 Posted 08 August 2019 - 01:51 AM

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View PostDeltavee, on 07 August 2019 - 07:47 PM, said:

 

crzyhawk,

So I re-read everything and yes, you're right.  You just got dragged into the trail of another comment while I was posting on the fly.  That was negligent of me.  The mitigating circumstances are irrelevant.

Mea culpa.

The fault is mine and so you are offered a full apology.

:facepalm:


+1 for grace and brutal honesty.

 

:medal:


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trikke #113 Posted 08 August 2019 - 02:17 AM

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View PostDeltavee, on 07 August 2019 - 08:47 PM, said:

 

crzyhawk,

So I re-read everything and yes, you're right.  You just got dragged into the trail of another comment while I was posting on the fly.  That was negligent of me.  The mitigating circumstances are irrelevant.

Mea culpa.

The fault is mine and so you are offered a full apology.

:facepalm:

 

a second plus1 for civility.       this forum is like no other


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