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Stock vs Upgraded disparity is huge.


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GeorgePatton #41 Posted 23 May 2019 - 02:44 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 22 May 2019 - 03:10 PM, said:

 Oh, and grinding a 5-point German pilot for my 109G.  I have something very special planned for it...

 

Gotta laugh reading this after you bragged you could take down my BV P.210 with your 109G and didn’t back it up. A five point pilot? I’ve got Charlotte von Stauffen on my P.210 with 11 points. It’s as crazy as it sounds.

 

 

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wylleEcoyote #42 Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:07 PM

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View PostZenn3k, on 20 May 2019 - 02:41 PM, said:

Indeed, I was feeling like those were only real choices in terms of specializations as well.     Accuracy and Maneuverability > All as I suspected.

Turning is so important that it trumps all other factors, so picking a fighter to play seems to come down to "which plane turns better" and then spending every possible upgrade on further improving that.    If the enemy can't stay on your 6 because you can out turn them, nothing else matters.    

 

This issue with fighters is why I have taken a liking to the Heavy Fighters, since straight up dog-fights with opposing fighters are not what you ever wanna be doing, so I can avoid the "turn battle" entirely by using Zoom and Boom tactics.

 

An additional bonus to B&Z builds that rarely gets mentioned is what you can do with that Zoom. The boom is important for exploding the unwary.
Yet the importance of being able to Zoom to wherever you need to be a.s.a.p.  can not be understated.

Maximized Turning  wins Dogfights.
But Capture Zone Control (i.e. consistently flipping/retaining more zones than the enemy) wins battles.

This is why a spit fire pilot can rack up 4-5 chevrons in a match by Turn&Burning over the same cap zone for the whole match
And still loose.because the other team never lost control of the first 2-3 caps it acquired in the opening minutes of the match.


 

Edited by wylleEcoyote, 23 May 2019 - 04:10 PM.

Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is very hit or miss. Usually I start on the right track and then a make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 
And yet it doesn't stop me from speculation.
Specialist Planes i have:
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USSR: Tu-1  UK: DH.100 F1. Japan: not even once. France: SE 100
Germany: Fw 56, He 112, Fw 190 A-5, Bf 109 B, Bf 109 E, Bf 109 E-3, Me209 A, Do 17 Z, Do 217 M, Hs 123, Ha 137, Hs 129 A, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2,  Bf 110 C-6, Me 410, Do 335 A-1,


CorvusCorvax #43 Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:03 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 23 May 2019 - 02:44 PM, said:

 

Gotta laugh reading this after you bragged you could take down my BV P.210 with your 109G and didn’t back it up. A five point pilot? I’ve got Charlotte von Stauffen on my P.210 with 11 points. It’s as crazy as it sounds.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

I can take down your plane.  I was turning over 720 degrees with a specialist A7M last night.  I currently have a climb and altitude advantage, regardless of who or what you do to your airplane.  But I could put Charlotte in mine, too.  But that still wouldn't help you with altitude or climb or turn, regardless of what you put on it.  Even a 20% benefit of equipment wouldn't get you where you needed to be.

 

But the stock plane, with a normal pilot?  Your Batplane is meat on the table, just from a stats standpoint.  And considering I have a specialized T9 Batplane, I think I know how to fly one, which mean I know how to beat one.  

 

Your bluster is funny, but if even the turny-est of the turn fighters has to work at it, your not-so-turny MRF is not shot down "if".  It's shot down "when".

 

Oh, right, the A7M pilot sucked.  LOL, go ahead and drop that one.



CorvusCorvax #44 Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:10 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 23 May 2019 - 09:01 AM, said:

 

That's kind of funny.

I just did that with my 109B tier 4. and at the same time had to take 15 bombers out to lunch for the Vamp mission.

Almost like WG knows what you are doing and sticks you with dead beat bots that refuse to pay child support.

Damn I hate losing battles back to back but I finally got it specialized and the 15 bombers.

Now on to the E and figure out if I want to fly it with the 20mm or the 15mm.

 

That has always struck me, too.  I had to kill three ADA to specialize.  It took me 4 battles to get that, because every time I would get into a cap zone, all of a sudden, I could knock off an ADA to 4HP, then a bot would finish it off to flip the cap.  As soon as I got my three, all of a sudden, I was shooting down ADA left and right.  Hmmmmm.

 

Fly the Emil with the top guns.  It just CRUSHES with that gun set.  Everything.  The Emil is probably my most favorite of the Bf-109 line, except the P.1101.  That plane can do no wrong, IMO.



GeorgePatton #45 Posted 23 May 2019 - 06:21 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 23 May 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

 

I can take down your plane.  I was turning over 720 degrees with a specialist A7M last night.  I currently have a climb and altitude advantage, regardless of who or what you do to your airplane.  But I could put Charlotte in mine, too.  But that still wouldn't help you with altitude or climb or turn, regardless of what you put on it.  Even a 20% benefit of equipment wouldn't get you where you needed to be.

 

But the stock plane, with a normal pilot?  Your Batplane is meat on the table, just from a stats standpoint.  And considering I have a specialized T9 Batplane, I think I know how to fly one, which mean I know how to beat one.  

 

Your bluster is funny, but if even the turny-est of the turn fighters has to work at it, your not-so-turny MRF is not shot down "if".  It's shot down "when".

 

Oh, right, the A7M pilot sucked.  LOL, go ahead and drop that one.

 

Man up or shut up, bro! Training room. Edit: Not an insult, just the popular saying.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


Edited by GeorgePatton, 23 May 2019 - 06:22 PM.

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CorvusCorvax #46 Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:39 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 23 May 2019 - 06:21 PM, said:

 

Man up or shut up, bro! Training room. Edit: Not an insult, just the popular saying.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

I'm not bringing a knife to a gunfight.  So, you can just wait.  THEN we'll training room.  Patience is a virtue.

GeorgePatton #47 Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:17 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 23 May 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

I'm not bringing a knife to a gunfight.  So, you can just wait.  THEN we'll training room.  Patience is a virtue.

 

So you're saying the 109G isn't good enough to be competitive with my BV P.210. Got it - thanks for making my point.

 

 

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SkyWolf__WM #48 Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:35 PM

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This is the dumbest thing That I have ever seen on the forums and I've been reading them for a long time. :facepalm:

Corvus, I don't know much about you. George, I THOUGHT that I knew about you. In the past you have been helpful and thoughtful.

Now neither of you seem to be playing the actual game much (especially you George) instead focusing on the forum game.

It's a bit too neener neener. George, you are a puppy, and Corvus.... I don't know how old you are....but you act lke a puppy. 

 

What is wrong with you two? :amazed:


Edited by SkyWolf__WM, 23 May 2019 - 08:36 PM.

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CorvusCorvax #49 Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:25 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 23 May 2019 - 08:17 PM, said:

 

So you're saying the 109G isn't good enough to be competitive with my BV P.210. Got it - thanks for making my point.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

Is that what you think you've done here?  Bragging about an 11-point pilot?  Stock v. stock, or even elite v. elite?  Yeah.  But to put up a stock Gustav with a 2-point pilot against a specialized Batplane with an 11-point pilot?  Sure, that's some real bragging rights.  



CorvusCorvax #50 Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:34 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 23 May 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

This is the dumbest thing That I have ever seen on the forums and I've been reading them for a long time. 

I can't disagree with you.  George is feeling inadequate for some reason.  He wants to flex about his plane at a tier advantage, with a special pilot.  Okay.  Not only that, he wants to set it up so that he has no distractions, and to use a pilot that guarantees him to get first sight.  But let me start talking about making my plane actually into a specialized unit that will be on par with his tier aircraft, he gets all defensive.  Weird, huh?  Yeah.  It's a lot of bluster.  But he'll get his training room fight.  But when I'm ready, and not before.

 

Speaking of playing, I don't see you much when I'm playing...


Edited by CorvusCorvax, 23 May 2019 - 09:35 PM.


losttwo #51 Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:43 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 23 May 2019 - 04:34 PM, said

 

Speaking of playing, I don't see you much when I'm playing...

 

Really ? He is easy to spot. He is the one casually flying around shooting red planes and passing out peanuts.

Some how out scoring everyone.

I followed him around an entire battle once just so he couldn't shoot me.

:popcorn:



losttwo #52 Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:44 PM

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Post script.

I rarely see anyone I know when playing to



Bobby_Tables #53 Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:03 AM

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View Postlosttwo, on 23 May 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:

Post script.

I rarely see anyone I know when playing to

 

I do see many of the forum posters pretty much on a daily basis.  Not all games, but once in awhile at high tiers all the sudden, bam! 3 or 4 humans per team.  Then it disappears, never to return for the night.  

 

If people are counting in from a chat channel, invite me!  I might not join due to token missions or I might due to same.  Much more fun when there are people you recognize.  More skin in the game, although I usually get scalped.  



CorvusCorvax #54 Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:05 AM

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I'm always down for helping on token missions.  Those seals ain't gonna club themselves, you know.

GeorgePatton #55 Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:57 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 23 May 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

I can't disagree with you.  George is feeling inadequate for some reason.  He wants to flex about his plane at a tier advantage, with a special pilot.  Okay.  Not only that, he wants to set it up so that he has no distractions, and to use a pilot that guarantees him to get first sight.  But let me start talking about making my plane actually into a specialized unit that will be on par with his tier aircraft, he gets all defensive.  Weird, huh?  Yeah.  It's a lot of bluster.  But he'll get his training room fight.  But when I'm ready, and not before.

 

Speaking of playing, I don't see you much when I'm playing...

 

Say all that, but this is the post that started this...

 

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 21 May 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

 

You're still not answering my question.  Why are you avoiding it?  BTW, I have been double-downtiered at T4, T5, T6, T7, T8, and T9.  So, your exception at T10 is the thing that's irrelevant.  Not part of a flight, Ibut as a downtiered victim of a T4 flight, I played a battle this last month in my FW57 where I got to spend a bunch of time in respawn as the two single humans on my side got to be T3, and the other guys got to be T4.  My human partner dropped before the battle started.  Which was smart - at least he didn't waste 8 minutes of battle time on the wrong end of a ROTFLstomp.  But hey, that flight was same-tiered, so OK, right?  LOL.

 

We who do split flights are trying to avoid that scenario.  We are trying to have at least one of us have the capacity to influence the battle in a positive way.  Getting double-downtiered in a T4/5 battle sucks.  7/8 isn't too bad, depending on the planes.  Personally, I love zapping T8 HFs and bombers with my Tu-1.  Bring your T8 Batplane.  My Bf-109G eats those guys up.  I've shot down a few with my B-32 as well.  :)  But a flighted pair of Do-335s against a couple of humans at T7, according to you, is fine.  Nope, still doesn't make sense.

 

Bold for clarity. You never said 'let me upgrade my 109G and then it will compete with your tier 8 batplane'. You advocated for breaking the game mechanics and then decided to go full potato and challenge me to a fight you could never win. You knew my batplane was specialized before you went off. If you've ever seen any of my videos, you'd know I run von Stauffen on it. When you saw that I'd actually call you on your bluster you left the thread and came over here.​

 

Here's the fact - everybody knows the 109G is trash. Everyone knows the BV P.210 is a rocket machine, and everyone knows to stay away from me if I'm running mine. 

 

You're more than welcome to specialize your 109G before you fight me if you want. I don't care. All I'm saying is you're all talk and nothing to back it up and then you go running around the forums touting your gaming of the system to get an unfair advantage.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 


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mnbv_fockewulfe #56 Posted 24 May 2019 - 04:01 AM

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Eh, only the guns are really trash on the Gustav.

The rest of the plane is fairly strong.


Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 


 


CorvusCorvax #57 Posted 24 May 2019 - 12:35 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 24 May 2019 - 04:01 AM, said:

Eh, only the guns are really trash on the Gustav.

The rest of the plane is fairly strong.

 

And the guns are weak only if you try to force them to do something dumb.  The MK108 does big damage, but you have to get in close.  The smaller guns can finish off what you started, but first you have land the dang 30mm...

CorvusCorvax #58 Posted 24 May 2019 - 12:58 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 24 May 2019 - 03:57 AM, said:

 

 

 

You advocated for breaking the game mechanics and then decided to go full potato and challenge me to a fight you could never win.
 

Glenn, I can';t help that you're butthurt over the fact that even unspecialized, I knock down T8 Batplanes regularly with my Gustav.  I get downtiered often enough that there is no choice but to fight T8 airplanes.  The Gustav climbs better, and turns a LOT better, than the Batplane. Oh, and altitude.  Once you get up where the Gustav plays, you're out of gas, and out of turn, and being out of gas means that your speed advantage is completely gone.

 

I also can't help that you're still emotional about not being able to articulate why you think split tiering is wrong.  Since you can't make a logical argument, you want to cry about it.  OK, go ahead.  You can cry all you want, but you're still just being emotional about something that is perfectly legal (the game allows it) and really only has a demonstrable downside for the lower-tier guy of the pair.  But luckily, even though he is downtiered, he has the common sense to be flighted!  So at least he's not downtiered, solo. (Again, you consider this to be perfectly acceptable.  Your position on this subject is so dumb that you for sure shouldn't be throwing around the word "potato".)

 

The straight up fact is that tier-for-tier, the Batplane is meh at T8, and the Gustav is good at T7.  The Ta-152 can snipe it from range, and the 209A can turn on it AND beat it up for speed.  Let's not even talk about ALL the other nationalities.  It's a snack for a Do-335, and fun target practice for an Me-262.

 

See, training room gives you all the advantages, and I'm still willing to do it.  Because I know what the planes can do.  You can have your extra-special build and still lose, because unless you get me in a head-on aspect (and I hold there), at your altitude, you lose the fight.  The speed disparity isn't enough for you to run away fast enough to beat cannon shells, even the slow ones of the MK108.

 

IOW, you're hoping to get rockets on target before I know what's happening. (Then run away while you reload, if you don't catch me napping.)

 

OMG, like I've never flown a Batplane myself!  LOL.



GeorgePatton #59 Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:25 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 24 May 2019 - 07:58 AM, said:

Glenn, I can';t help that you're butthurt over the fact that even unspecialized, I knock down T8 Batplanes regularly with my Gustav.  I get downtiered often enough that there is no choice but to fight T8 airplanes.  The Gustav climbs better, and turns a LOT better, than the Batplane. Oh, and altitude.  Once you get up where the Gustav plays, you're out of gas, and out of turn, and being out of gas means that your speed advantage is completely gone.

 

I also can't help that you're still emotional about not being able to articulate why you think split tiering is wrong.  Since you can't make a logical argument, you want to cry about it.  OK, go ahead.  You can cry all you want, but you're still just being emotional about something that is perfectly legal (the game allows it) and really only has a demonstrable downside for the lower-tier guy of the pair.  But luckily, even though he is downtiered, he has the common sense to be flighted!  So at least he's not downtiered, solo. (Again, you consider this to be perfectly acceptable.  Your position on this subject is so dumb that you for sure shouldn't be throwing around the word "potato".)

 

The straight up fact is that tier-for-tier, the Batplane is meh at T8, and the Gustav is good at T7.  The Ta-152 can snipe it from range, and the 209A can turn on it AND beat it up for speed.  Let's not even talk about ALL the other nationalities.  It's a snack for a Do-335, and fun target practice for an Me-262.

 

See, training room gives you all the advantages, and I'm still willing to do it.  Because I know what the planes can do.  You can have your extra-special build and still lose, because unless you get me in a head-on aspect (and I hold there), at your altitude, you lose the fight.  The speed disparity isn't enough for you to run away fast enough to beat cannon shells, even the slow ones of the MK108.

 

IOW, you're hoping to get rockets on target before I know what's happening. (Then run away while you reload, if you don't catch me napping.)

 

OMG, like I've never flown a Batplane myself!  LOL.

 

In regards to Batplane vs 109G - you’ve got some points. The 109G does have better altitude capability but that doesn’t necessarily mean the fight would be at altitude. Especially in a 1v1 the 109G would have to play at my altitude as I simply don’t go above. The other thing about a 1v1 environment is that (like you said) there are no distractions which means in order to get into engagement range you would have to go head-on at some point. My R4Ms are actually accurate out to 2500m on a head-on engagement which is well beyond the range of the 109G. I’m sure that you’re smart enough to not fly straight-and-level on the initial merge, but as long as you come within 400m on that initial pass you’ve got a really good chance of catching a face-full of rockets. If you manage to avoid the rockets (one of my most accurate methods of rocket kills is to wait until my opponent is in a fully-established turn at about 300m) the guns can still take a minimum of 80% of your HP on the first pass (IL-8 and IL-10M both are 2-pass kills without rockets) and I’ve got about a 65% bonus to chance of critical damage against you. There’s a good chance your wings/tail/pilot get messed up.

 

Now, what if you manage to land those 30mm rounds on the initial pass? Well, that would mean you flew straight-and-level long enough in the merge to guarantee you’re catching rockets, so we can effectively say you’re not going to be using your guns until (and if) you manage to get behind me. That means I hold all of the cards until you’ve managed to get around the business end of all of my weaponry. Once you do, you’re inside the bonus trigger range for all of my pilot skills which means I go beyond the 9.7 time to turn due to the ‘massive bonus to maneuvering during close-range combat’. 9.7 time to turn being .1 second better than the 109G without specialization. On top of that, I’m going to use my turn consumable which allows me to out-turn specialized Spit XIV.

 

Maybe you can out-maneuver me, but the combination of equipment, pilot skills, and consumables lets me keep up with the most maneuverable planes (Yak-15, Vampire, and Spit XIV) at tier 8 for at least 3/4 of a turn which is plenty to get the rocket lead at close range and vaporize them. That’s if I choose to use the rockets to finish the kill. I need about 1/2 the lead to use the guns and the 109G is already really hurt from the merge.

 

The other planes you mention have never even concerned me. 209A thinks his guns are the bomb diggity and goes h2h thinking he’s got the range. He eats rockets from 1800m. If rockets are reloading, 209A can’t keep up with the directional changes due to ridiculous roll-rate on P.210. 262 can’t come in straight or he’ll eat rockets just before he gets in gun range - if rockets are reloading he can’t keep up with the direction changes on the merge due to the insane roll-rate. Do.335 better catch P.210 napping because all he’s got is ridiculous alpha strike and speed. That means two things - he’s coming in straight, and he’s leaving straight - both good things for the Batplane’s rockets. Also, he can’t keep up with the directional changes either.

 

That’s one of my favorite things about the 210 and what makes me prefer it over the tier 9 - the roll rate coupled with the rockets. Rockets make planes with more powerful forward-firing weapons keep their distance and avoid the situation where (without rockets involved) they would have the advantage. If they try for the head-to-head they know they’re catching rockets. If they don’t, they know there’s still a ridiculously good chance that they’re going to catch rockets. The rate of roll on the P.210 means that if I happen to be out of rockets and somebody goes head-on with better guns I can change directions (closer than 1000m) at such a pace that it’s practically impossible to maintain a gun solution. Pulling into a full-deflection turn at 200m means I’ll end up about 50m behind my opponent after the merge where my guns will eat anything except a GA in one heat cycle.

 

All of this being said, I haven’t given you credit for the batplanes you have shot down. I agree most batplanes are easy to shoot down. Nobody knows how to use them. In a 1v1 situation, I’ve got two things that I’m thinking - rockets first and hopefully that’s all that’s needed, but in the event that the rockets don’t work, the 20s + turn are more than enough to take care of anything. There are two things that I don’t want to see in my P.210 - that is SpiritFoxMY in a Vampire and Reitosair in a Vampire. Even then, I still enjoy the challenge of running into them - I haven’t run into them since I fully specialized, but I feel like I would actually stand a slight chance now - things would have to go my way as those planes are straight up more maneuverable no matter what I do and those guys are fantastic pilots, but I know they would be very wary of how they approach the engagement.

 


 

As far as my argument about split-tiering goes, my argument make sense, you just don’t agree with it. That’s fine. The players who are good at the game on their own all agree with me and generally refuse to split-tier due to the reasons I’ve articulated - not that it requires them to validate what I’m saying as anyone can ‘do the math’ to figure out the advantage that split-tiering gives. 


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CorvusCorvax #60 Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:36 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 24 May 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

 

In regards to Batplane vs 109G - you’ve got some points. 

 


 

As far as my argument about split-tiering goes, my argument make sense, you just don’t agree with it. 

I'm glad you've climbed down a little.  It means that you understand I know how to fight these planes.  Both planes.  In a 1v1 situation, I am not going to cede my altitude advantage to you.  Nor am I only going to maneuver in anything less than three axes at the merge, because even an expert rocketeer needs his opponent to get dumb for some amount of time to land rockets.  Even with the Rocketeer pilot skill.  Ask me how I know.  Even with the turn consumable, you cede the advantage at altitude, which is why I'm not giving it up.  I am never getting below your yellow, and if I am smart, I am never getting below your red.  The stall characteristics of ALL of the German MRFs is, umm, weird.  You get to float in space for seconds at less than 100kph - like a floating balloon.  After you fall for 500m, you regain control, during which time your opponent is lighting you up.  In addition, if you use up your rocket salvos and don't get me, it's not even hard work to send you to respawn.  

 

Your argument against split-tiering is completely emotional.  It makes sense *to you*.  To anyone who understands logic, it is a complete mess.  Circling back to the same emotional appeals isn't persuasive.  It isn't so much that you're wrong, it's that you persist in believing that an emotional appeal has weight.  It doesn't.  Your feelings don't matter to anyone but yourself.


Edited by CorvusCorvax, 24 May 2019 - 03:37 PM.





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