Jump to content


Stock vs Upgraded disparity is huge.


  • Please log in to reply
73 replies to this topic

GeorgePatton #61 Posted 24 May 2019 - 04:50 PM

    газета

  • -Community Ace-
  • 616 battles
  • 5,274
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    10-18-2011

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 24 May 2019 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm glad you've climbed down a little.  It means that you understand I know how to fight these planes.  Both planes.  In a 1v1 situation, I am not going to cede my altitude advantage to you.  Nor am I only going to maneuver in anything less than three axes at the merge, because even an expert rocketeer needs his opponent to get dumb for some amount of time to land rockets.  Even with the Rocketeer pilot skill.  Ask me how I know.  Even with the turn consumable, you cede the advantage at altitude, which is why I'm not giving it up.  I am never getting below your yellow, and if I am smart, I am never getting below your red.  The stall characteristics of ALL of the German MRFs is, umm, weird.  You get to float in space for seconds at less than 100kph - like a floating balloon.  After you fall for 500m, you regain control, during which time your opponent is lighting you up.  In addition, if you use up your rocket salvos and don't get me, it's not even hard work to send you to respawn.  

 

I think the thing you’re really underestimating about me is my understanding of three-dimensional space and the restrictions a body has in maneuvering through that space. Through the merge, there is nothing you can do that I don’t know can be done. It’s really not about people doing something dumb or not dumb - it’s about being able to roll quickly enough to follow the maneuvers of your opponent through the merge and being able to snap the rocket lead before they get past. Ask anyone who has encountered me in the P.210 - they’ll tell you to avoid merging with me because 90% of the time I don’t miss. I’ve never missed a shot on a merge when I’m actually focusing. That’s against straight-in potatoes, canopy rolling novices, barrel rolling experienced players, and the crazy stuff I’ve seen people try to pull off. It’s not hard if you can process the trigonometry quickly enough, calculate the optimized flight path to intercept, calculate opponent’s speed, own speed, and rocket speed, and understand the 3D space. That’s what I’m good at. It’s how I’ve managed to stay at the higher end of average through a lot of weird patches. It’s how I was at the top when this game was much closer to a simulator than it is now.

 

I’m not saying I’m 100% going to get you on the initial merge, but you’re going to be disadvantaged at the very least. In maneuvering in all three axis, you’re giving up a lot of energy which your plane really needs to perform. If you don’t give up that energy, you might as well not have it because you’ll be dead 100%. That’s energy that I’m not throwing away because I know I hold the advantage and you’re going to react to me or else you’ll die. If I decide not to use the rockets due to trouble snapping the right lead, I’ll start my turn early (you can’t start your turn early or I’ll get the proper lead for the rockets) which means I’ll already be 1/4 to 1/2 turn ahead of you as you go by me putting me at an advantage in the initial turn fight even without consumables and pilot skills.

 

Should you try to reverse on me to negate my initial advantage, you’re not going to be more than 150m ahead of me which is a guaranteed rocket kill for me. If I somehow managed to miss with the rockets my rate of roll is still so high that I can reverse more quickly than you can and you will be established in a full-deflection turn at a lower than optimal energy which means that I can go into a lazy high yo-yo and extend above you as I turn and intercept you at the 3/4 mark on your turn. That’s a gun solution for me at about 450m with the threat of rockets should you attempt to go to guns against me. If you don’t go to guns against we’re in another merge and your energy is much lower now while I simply converted kinetic to potential energy. Being a propeller plane, you don’t have the acceleration (oddly) that my jet has meaning once you engage (the initial merge) you can’t disengage to higher altitude. I don’t lose much performance into the yellow band, although you are correct in stating that the stall characteristics are strange for the German MRFs. 

 

I’m a very disciplined pilot when I care about a fight. I simply will not engage an opponent when I’m disadvantaged by altitude if it means I won’t be able to disengage. You will never see me stall or even come close to stalling. I’ve stalled my BV P.210 less than 5 times and only ever when chasing a silly bot that flew straight up and I knew I could kill before stalling and there were no opponents around. It took me over 100 battles to be able to give feedback on the new stall mechanics simply because I never stalled.

 

You are correct when you say that you have the altitude advantage, but it does you no good if we never fight. Your plane is built for diving attacks which actually works to my advantage. There is no way for you to set up a diving attack in a 1v1 situation that would not allow me to prepare for it and greet it with a salvo of rockets. You will always be in my view before you try to dive, you will always be at least 500m away which means I have time to turn and we re-enter the merge stage.

 

The other side of this, is what if I did decide to go to your altitude. I still have the speed to keep up with you but you do have better maneuverability. The extent of that advantage is to give you about 1 second of firing time before I have a rocket solution through the initial turn. That’s not enough to kill me. I know better than to go into a same-direction turn at altitude because I can’t keep you on my canopy in that situation - you will slowly slide back onto my tail. If I split, one of two things is going to happen:

 

  1. You maintain your turn direction and I maintain mine in the opposite direction. You will have a gun solution 1 second before I have a rocket solution. My rocket solution will be at about 75m - at that range the proximity fuse and auto-aim features of the R4M guarantee hits with my setup. You’re dead.
  2. You reverse your turn direction to become a same-direction turn with mine, which I maintain. I will establish lead as the longitudinal axis of my plane crosses your point of reversal. I now have a gun solution on you and will finish you with one heat cycle from the 20s. If I’m lucky and you don’t reverse your turn in the absolute minimum amount of time I will have a rocket solution which I would much prefer over the gun solution. Again, you’re dead.

 

With the German MRFs, I’ve noticed that time to turn increases a little as you go above optimal altitude, but the radius of turn decreases. If you know how to play this into more than one direction, it’s actually possible to outmaneuver aircraft you shouldn’t be able to outmaneuver at altitude. I’ve never seen you play outside of the distracted environment of the community events, but from what I’ve seen I’m confident that I have a deeper knowledge of the flight environment and restrictions than you and that gives me really the greatest advantage. If you’re wondering what I’m talking about with ‘playing into more than one direction’ I’m talking about the yo-yos. I know you will use a high yo-yo due to your airspeed and maneuverability advantage - if I try to follow you through that high yo-yo I’m going to stall. If I maintain a two-dimensional horizontal turn, you’re going to intercept me at the 1/2 to 3/4 turn mark. You have to use that high yo-yo because my turn radius is very small at altitude even though my time to turn is higher otherwise you’re going to out-turn me but only get shots occasionally when our circles meet at one point. If you were to stay in a pure horizontal turn, I would go to a low yo-yo which would bring me lower and also pick up a little more speed and I would again have a brief window to fire rockets as we both got a very brief firing solution. Again, R4M beat guns. However, when you make your high yo-yo, I’ll make a low yo-yo which will essentially even the playing field as it gives me back some of my time to turn and widens out my turn radius just a little bit allowing me to extend and then come back to my smaller turn radius throwing you out of sync. My excellent acceleration and quick recharge on the boost means that I can afford to make these trades with a level of security knowing that if I mess up I can dive away at 900 km/h rapidly changing directions. Should you follow, you’re into my safe zone and since I timed the disengagement carefully you’ll be ~1200m behind me which again sets us up for a perfect merge in my favor.

 

All of this is just a tiny fraction of the variables that I process instinctually as an engagement unfolds - I’ve been playing air combat games and studying ACM manuals since I was a little kid (I was a strange kid...) and I’ve always enjoyed the challenge of thinking in three dimensions rather than two. If you fail to consider even one of the variables I’ve listed here, you’re already behind and being behind means being dead in this game. If you managed to keep up that’s great but then we’re going to be into the advanced stuff which I’ve never seen from you.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

P.S., Please don’t take this as like a personal attack or me taking an ego trip - I’m trying to explain what goes through my head as I plan an engagement and the way I process advantages/disadvantages. I do have a high level of self-confidence and that ‘pilot bluster’ about me, and I believe that it’s a key ingredient to being a deadly force on the virtual battlefield just like it is in the real world. In my mind it’s not so much a putting down of others as it is that ‘killer instinct’ that separates the hunters from the hunted. As soon as you think the your opponent has a chance, they’ve already won. This mindset is what brought me success against 3-man flights of DRACS back in the day. I’ve shot down all three members of their flight flying solo on a couple of occasions and we had a lot of mutual respect. Of course, they also got me a lot but it was never an easy fight for them (and they were coordinating against me).


                                                                                                                                 Click the Pictures to Visit My YouTube Channel.


legoboy0401 #62 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:08 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 1425 battles
  • 1,547
  • Member since:
    11-30-2013

View PostGeorgePatton, on 24 May 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

 

I think the thing you’re really underestimating about me is my understanding of three-dimensional space and the restrictions a body has in maneuvering through that space. Through the merge, there is nothing you can do that I don’t know can be done. It’s really not about people doing something dumb or not dumb - it’s about being able to roll quickly enough to follow the maneuvers of your opponent through the merge and being able to snap the rocket lead before they get past. Ask anyone who has encountered me in the P.210 - they’ll tell you to avoid merging with me because 90% of the time I don’t miss. I’ve never missed a shot on a merge when I’m actually focusing. That’s against straight-in potatoes, canopy rolling novices, barrel rolling experienced players, and the crazy stuff I’ve seen people try to pull off. It’s not hard if you can process the trigonometry quickly enough, calculate the optimized flight path to intercept, calculate opponent’s speed, own speed, and rocket speed, and understand the 3D space. That’s what I’m good at. It’s how I’ve managed to stay at the higher end of average through a lot of weird patches. It’s how I was at the top when this game was much closer to a simulator than it is now.

 

I’m not saying I’m 100% going to get you on the initial merge, but you’re going to be disadvantaged at the very least. In maneuvering in all three axis, you’re giving up a lot of energy which your plane really needs to perform. If you don’t give up that energy, you might as well not have it because you’ll be dead 100%. That’s energy that I’m not throwing away because I know I hold the advantage and you’re going to react to me or else you’ll die. If I decide not to use the rockets due to trouble snapping the right lead, I’ll start my turn early (you can’t start your turn early or I’ll get the proper lead for the rockets) which means I’ll already be 1/4 to 1/2 turn ahead of you as you go by me putting me at an advantage in the initial turn fight even without consumables and pilot skills.

 

Should you try to reverse on me to negate my initial advantage, you’re not going to be more than 150m ahead of me which is a guaranteed rocket kill for me. If I somehow managed to miss with the rockets my rate of roll is still so high that I can reverse more quickly than you can and you will be established in a full-deflection turn at a lower than optimal energy which means that I can go into a lazy high yo-yo and extend above you as I turn and intercept you at the 3/4 mark on your turn. That’s a gun solution for me at about 450m with the threat of rockets should you attempt to go to guns against me. If you don’t go to guns against we’re in another merge and your energy is much lower now while I simply converted kinetic to potential energy. Being a propeller plane, you don’t have the acceleration (oddly) that my jet has meaning once you engage (the initial merge) you can’t disengage to higher altitude. I don’t lose much performance into the yellow band, although you are correct in stating that the stall characteristics are strange for the German MRFs. 

 

I’m a very disciplined pilot when I care about a fight. I simply will not engage an opponent when I’m disadvantaged by altitude if it means I won’t be able to disengage. You will never see me stall or even come close to stalling. I’ve stalled my BV P.210 less than 5 times and only ever when chasing a silly bot that flew straight up and I knew I could kill before stalling and there were no opponents around. It took me over 100 battles to be able to give feedback on the new stall mechanics simply because I never stalled.

 

You are correct when you say that you have the altitude advantage, but it does you no good if we never fight. Your plane is built for diving attacks which actually works to my advantage. There is no way for you to set up a diving attack in a 1v1 situation that would not allow me to prepare for it and greet it with a salvo of rockets. You will always be in my view before you try to dive, you will always be at least 500m away which means I have time to turn and we re-enter the merge stage.

 

The other side of this, is what if I did decide to go to your altitude. I still have the speed to keep up with you but you do have better maneuverability. The extent of that advantage is to give you about 1 second of firing time before I have a rocket solution through the initial turn. That’s not enough to kill me. I know better than to go into a same-direction turn at altitude because I can’t keep you on my canopy in that situation - you will slowly slide back onto my tail. If I split, one of two things is going to happen:

 

  1. You maintain your turn direction and I maintain mine in the opposite direction. You will have a gun solution 1 second before I have a rocket solution. My rocket solution will be at about 75m - at that range the proximity fuse and auto-aim features of the R4M guarantee hits with my setup. You’re dead.
  2. You reverse your turn direction to become a same-direction turn with mine, which I maintain. I will establish lead as the longitudinal axis of my plane crosses your point of reversal. I now have a gun solution on you and will finish you with one heat cycle from the 20s. If I’m lucky and you don’t reverse your turn in the absolute minimum amount of time I will have a rocket solution which I would much prefer over the gun solution. Again, you’re dead.

 

With the German MRFs, I’ve noticed that time to turn increases a little as you go above optimal altitude, but the radius of turn decreases. If you know how to play this into more than one direction, it’s actually possible to outmaneuver aircraft you shouldn’t be able to outmaneuver at altitude. I’ve never seen you play outside of the distracted environment of the community events, but from what I’ve seen I’m confident that I have a deeper knowledge of the flight environment and restrictions than you and that gives me really the greatest advantage. If you’re wondering what I’m talking about with ‘playing into more than one direction’ I’m talking about the yo-yos. I know you will use a high yo-yo due to your airspeed and maneuverability advantage - if I try to follow you through that high yo-yo I’m going to stall. If I maintain a two-dimensional horizontal turn, you’re going to intercept me at the 1/2 to 3/4 turn mark. You have to use that high yo-yo because my turn radius is very small at altitude even though my time to turn is higher otherwise you’re going to out-turn me but only get shots occasionally when our circles meet at one point. If you were to stay in a pure horizontal turn, I would go to a low yo-yo which would bring me lower and also pick up a little more speed and I would again have a brief window to fire rockets as we both got a very brief firing solution. Again, R4M beat guns. However, when you make your high yo-yo, I’ll make a low yo-yo which will essentially even the playing field as it gives me back some of my time to turn and widens out my turn radius just a little bit allowing me to extend and then come back to my smaller turn radius throwing you out of sync. My excellent acceleration and quick recharge on the boost means that I can afford to make these trades with a level of security knowing that if I mess up I can dive away at 900 km/h rapidly changing directions. Should you follow, you’re into my safe zone and since I timed the disengagement carefully you’ll be ~1200m behind me which again sets us up for a perfect merge in my favor.

 

All of this is just a tiny fraction of the variables that I process instinctually as an engagement unfolds - I’ve been playing air combat games and studying ACM manuals since I was a little kid (I was a strange kid...) and I’ve always enjoyed the challenge of thinking in three dimensions rather than two. If you fail to consider even one of the variables I’ve listed here, you’re already behind and being behind means being dead in this game. If you managed to keep up that’s great but then we’re going to be into the advanced stuff which I’ve never seen from you.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

P.S., Please don’t take this as like a personal attack or me taking an ego trip - I’m trying to explain what goes through my head as I plan an engagement and the way I process advantages/disadvantages. I do have a high level of self-confidence and that ‘pilot bluster’ about me, and I believe that it’s a key ingredient to being a deadly force on the virtual battlefield just like it is in the real world. In my mind it’s not so much a putting down of others as it is that ‘killer instinct’ that separates the hunters from the hunted. As soon as you think the your opponent has a chance, they’ve already won. This mindset is what brought me success against 3-man flights of DRACS back in the day. I’ve shot down all three members of their flight flying solo on a couple of occasions and we had a lot of mutual respect. Of course, they also got me a lot but it was never an easy fight for them (and they were coordinating against me).

 

What would you do against a J8M, especially one wise enough to come straight down at you at 1,000 km per hour?

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


CorvusCorvax #63 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:14 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 3142 battles
  • 3,489
  • [JG52] JG52
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Postlegoboy0401, on 24 May 2019 - 06:08 PM, said:

 

What would you do against a J8M, especially one wise enough to come straight down at you at 1,000 km per hour?

 

That is the easiest rocket shot in the world.  Straight is death against R4Ms.

GeorgePatton #64 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:20 PM

    газета

  • -Community Ace-
  • 616 battles
  • 5,274
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    10-18-2011

View Postlegoboy0401, on 24 May 2019 - 01:08 PM, said:

What would you do against a J8M, especially one wise enough to come straight down at you at 1,000 km per hour?

 

J8M is a silly bird, to be completely honest. Too fast for its own good in most situations. Like Corvus said, straight at you is the easiest shot with the R4Ms. The rate of roll and turn radius on the BV P.210 within the J8M's engagement distances means if you know they're coming it's quite easy to get away without taking a single hit. The J8M is best used as a nuisance fighter - hit them while they're busy kind of thing. That's why I don't fly mine anymore - everyone knows how to avoid it and I don't really like that wait until they're busy play style. I like my opponents to actively try to get away.

 

Edit: A little more clarity on what I would do...

 

First of all, turn towards the attack. That's been an established rule since the early days of air combat. I would launch a single salvo of R4Ms at about 1600m assuming the J8M isn't stupid enough to keep coming straight at my nose and he's then got two options:

 

  1. Press the issue into the rockets, or,
  2. Disengage and leave me alone.

 

Again, I'd assume he's smart enough to disengage, and if he isn't he's dead anyway. I would continue whatever I was doing before the J8M interrupted. If it were a 1v1 situation that's a different story. He's obviously still going to have to disengage on the initial pass and assuming he does (again, he's dead if he doesn't) He's going to be trying to grab his altitude back. You said he's diving at 1000 km/h so that means he used his boost which means he's not going to get back to the same altitude at which he started. Depending on his angle of engagement, I may just pull a half circle as he disengages and starts to climb and then follow him for about 2 seconds while firing the 20s and launching another single salvo of rockets. After that, if I missed (depends on his skill because he can maneuver very well in the vertical while boosting which gives a much lower chance of hits vs a target that small and fast) I would hit the deck. 100% hit the deck. I'd find a mountain and just stay right against it while he plays his energy out. Just keep maneuvering off-plane every time he attacks and bringing him lower and lower. He has to break early because of his speed and lack of maneuverability or he has to slow down - if he slows down he's dead. Every time he disengages I'll put a second of fire on him - probably attempts and he's dead.

 

Second Edit: 

 

That 1000 km/h part almost guarantees that the J8M is going to eat rockets. If he's diving that quickly he's going to close that distance so rapidly he really doesn't have time to get out of the way of a rocket attack. At 1000 km/h + 550 km/h (my speed) that's a closing speed of 1550 km/h which means 1600m is going to be covered in about 3.5 seconds. Add to that the speed of the R4M (~1000 m/s) and his rate of closure with the R4M is (ignoring initial velocity from the launch ship) 2000 km/h. That means he now has less than 3 seconds to move his aircraft at least 75m away from the path of the R4M to avoid being caught in the proximity blast. Assuming the average reaction time between spotting R4M launch, server communication, and the average player reacting to said launch, there's very little chance that the J8M is going to avoid that salvo. If I wanted to be really sure he's going to die, I would wait until about 1000m to launch and at that point it's literally impossible with those speeds to avoid the R4M. The thing with that is I might take a single hit from his cannons which I would rather not do if there's anyone around. In a 1v1 situation, I would 100% take that hit to make the play.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn 


Edited by GeorgePatton, 24 May 2019 - 06:36 PM.

                                                                                                                                 Click the Pictures to Visit My YouTube Channel.


CorvusCorvax #65 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:36 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 3142 battles
  • 3,489
  • [JG52] JG52
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View PostGeorgePatton, on 24 May 2019 - 04:50 PM, said:

 

I think the thing you’re really underestimating about me is my understanding of three-dimensional space and the restrictions a body has in maneuvering through that space. 

I'm not.  There are only so many things you can do, even with the simplified flight model WG dropped on us.  One of the Bf-109 line's biggest unsung attributes is energy retention.  This is what makes it so surprising to unsuspecting turn-fighter pilots.  Those planes bleed speed arterially.  The German multiroles also have the speed bleed problem in turns.  Not as bad as the Japanese, but still much worse than the 109 line.  

 

Maintaining reasonable separation until one gets a decent rear-aspect shot means denying the Batplane a chance to get a shot.  You may want to check out the climb stats.  The Gustav has better acceleration characteristics, even if the top speed is less.  The downside is less duration.  Creating initial separation is easy, maintaining it would be more difficult.  With a better climb rate, the Gustav will always seek to use the vertical to increase energy, then spend it in turning hard on the downhill.  

 

Observing me goof around in the community events or against bots is indicative of me goofing around.  I rarely approach any of those engagements as anything but "hey, just flying around here."  Or, more likely, "Hmmm, I wonder if I can get away with this?" as I test out the unpublished flight physics.  Sometimes I surprise myself, like keep up in a turn with an A7M over 720 degrees at 500m.  No way a Gustav can do that, some would say.  I would have said it!  Until I ran out of boost, I had him, and me dumb, low in the wrong plane for the engagement that I chose dumbly.  A smart pilot would have not engaged that way, but done a full-power BnZ, extend, split-S, recover some boost, do it again.  But what the heck, goof around some.

 

I know it's not a personal attack, but you're not the only one who knows ACM, nor knows how to fly these pixel planes.  And the thing that's really crazy is that I'm better at the heavy fighters than the light fighters.  Altitude, speed, and alpha.  Rise, repeat.

 

I let you know.



legoboy0401 #66 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:47 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 1425 battles
  • 1,547
  • Member since:
    11-30-2013

A couple things that all batplanes are allergic to:

 

 

A: sniper cannons, but only if you aren't paying attention

 

B: string bombs dropped by a bomber randomly hitting you, but that's random.

 

C: pretty much nothing else.

 

 

So, reading between the lines, you are arguing for a nerf to the Tier VIII batplane. Fine then, WG can nerf the roll rate to be average at best, terrible at worst, and then it will be balanced. Didn't they kind of do a similar "Your strength too good, we be "rebalancing" it to bring it in line with other planes!" to the Ta-152, let alone the CRAZY nerfs to the Pancake?

 

 

P.S., screw your stupid P. 210. No plane should be nearly unbeatable, even if the pilot is really good. Your P.210 deserves EVERYTHING WG may throw at it in time, up to and including nerfing it into irrelevancy

 

 

 


Edited by legoboy0401, 24 May 2019 - 06:50 PM.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


GeorgePatton #67 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:48 PM

    газета

  • -Community Ace-
  • 616 battles
  • 5,274
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    10-18-2011

If I were to try to climb with you, yes - I would have some problems after a while. I would be out of airspeed and down on maneuverability - theoretically. The biggest problem for the 109G comes when the pilot he's after won't play into his game. If you were to maintain separation, I would give you more separation and then reset to the merge every time. I'll do that all day, every day.

 

As long as you're further than 500m when you set up for the attack I can swing my plane around quickly enough to blast you with the R4M. I don't need more than 1/1000th of a second (1ms response time on my keyboard, I think?) to launch the rockets and that's an instant kill, especially as a tier 7.

 

Give me 1200m and you're going to be taking evasive action if you want to live. The bottom line, IMO, is that without the R4M the P.210 is still going to be a huge problem for a 109G - he's gotta be careful how he approaches the fight. With the R4M, the 109G is constantly on the defensive and has absolutely no control over an engagement regardless of where the 109G starts in terms of altitude vs the P.210. In terms of firepower and hit points, I believe the two planes are fairly equal (before considering the R4M) so the P.210 doesn't really have anything to fear from the 109G.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


                                                                                                                                 Click the Pictures to Visit My YouTube Channel.


GeorgePatton #68 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:51 PM

    газета

  • -Community Ace-
  • 616 battles
  • 5,274
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    10-18-2011

View Postlegoboy0401, on 24 May 2019 - 01:47 PM, said:

A couple things that all batplanes are allergic to:

 

 

A: sniper cannons, but only if you aren't paying attention

 

B: string bombs dropped by a bomber randomly hitting you, but that's random.

 

C: pretty much nothing else.

 

 

So, reading between the lines, you are arguing for a nerf to the Tier VIII batplane. Fine then, WG can nerf the roll rate to be average at best, terrible at worst, and then it will be balanced. Didn't they kind of do a similar "Your strength too good, we be "rebalancing" it to bring it in line with other planes!" to the Ta-152, let alone the CRAZY nerfs to the Pancake?

 

 

 

 

The batplanes are only as good as their pilot. They're generally mediocre from what I've seen and there are not many who do well enough in them to warrant a nerf. It's when someone takes the time to actually master the weapons platform that it really becomes dangerous. It's a ridiculously fragile bird and I only do well in it because I know how to avoid situations where its frailty puts it out of commission. I think it's fairly balanced overall.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


                                                                                                                                 Click the Pictures to Visit My YouTube Channel.


CorvusCorvax #69 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:52 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 3142 battles
  • 3,489
  • [JG52] JG52
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Postlegoboy0401, on 24 May 2019 - 06:47 PM, said:

A couple things that all batplanes are allergic to:

 

 

A: sniper cannons, but only if you aren't paying attention

 

B: string bombs dropped by a bomber randomly hitting you, but that's random.

 

C: pretty much nothing else.

 

 

So, reading between the lines, you are arguing for a nerf to the Tier VIII batplane. Fine then, WG can nerf the roll rate to be average at best, terrible at worst, and then it will be balanced. Didn't they kind of do a similar "Your strength too good, we be "rebalancing" it to bring it in line with other planes!" to the Ta-152, let alone the CRAZY nerfs to the Pancake?

 

 

 

 

The roll rate of the German MRFs are what make them what they are.  You can do some crazy stuff with those planes.  The Pancake was OP, so the nerf turned a crazy plane into a normal HF.  It's still good, and you can still do great things with it, but it's not a "fly and win" plane any more.  The Ta-152 used to be able to snipe and kill over a kilometer out.  Now you have to close to 800-900m to get the same action.  On the plus side, it turns better now.  But not enough to make it a turny fighter.  Altitude, speed and alpha make the Ta-152 a pretty tough opponent still, but it's not as good as it was.

Edited by CorvusCorvax, 24 May 2019 - 06:54 PM.


legoboy0401 #70 Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:57 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 1425 battles
  • 1,547
  • Member since:
    11-30-2013

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 24 May 2019 - 10:52 AM, said:

 

The roll rate of the German MRFs are what make them what they are.  You can do some crazy stuff with those planes.  The Pancake was OP, so the nerf turned a crazy plane into a normal HF.  It's still good, and you can still do great things with it, but it's not a "fly and win" plane any more.  THe Ta-152 used to be able to snip and kill over a kilometer out.  Now you have to close to 800-900m to get the same action.  On the plus side, it turns better now.  But not enough to make it a turny fighter.  Altitude, speed and alpha make the Ta-152 a pretty tough opponent still, but it's not as good as it was.

 

The whole context of this thread now since Patton hijacked it, is about how his P. 210 is godmode and how it is a "fly and win" plane and nearly invincible with him in it. BULLCRAP. No plane in the game ought to have no hard counters, PERIOD. From the way Patton describes his P. 210, it doesn't have seemingly any counter at all, at least when he is in it.

 

That's not right.


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


GeorgePatton #71 Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:30 PM

    газета

  • -Community Ace-
  • 616 battles
  • 5,274
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    10-18-2011

View Postlegoboy0401, on 24 May 2019 - 01:57 PM, said:

 

The whole context of this thread now since Patton hijacked it, is about how his P. 210 is godmode and how it is a "fly and win" plane and nearly invincible with him in it. BULLCRAP. No plane in the game ought to have no hard counters, PERIOD. From the way Patton describes his P. 210, it doesn't have seemingly any counter at all, at least when he is in it.

 

That's not right.

 

I don't like Vampires or Yak-15s flown by good pilots. I haven't flown enough of my other planes to really have the same level of competence in them (I started out on the P.210 because I wanted to have the highest ratio of Golubev's to battles played in the game) but I'm sure if I spend enough time I'll find several other planes that I feel the same way about. JL-1A-37 is an easy one to assume I'd feel good flying (it used to be my favorite before I took a break from the game and it's still strong even without specialization). I've done quite well in the P-80A. Me.262 is another of my favorites. 

 

The P.210 is definitely counter-able. The problem is finding someone who can play the split-second chess game of air combat and pull a win against me. You have to be watching for every mistake I make and if you don't take advantage of it, you will pay. That can be said of any plane I fly enough to know its strengths and weaknesses. 

 

For whatever it's worth, I feel completely confident when I see an opposing specialized P.210 as well. Like I was saying above, it's really about knowing yourself, the limitations of your machine, and having that mentality that you've already won going into an engagement.

 

In the broader picture of a 12v12 the BV P.210 is a little slow and can't capture sectors on its own. I've lost a lot of battles even with a ridiculously high personal score simply because I wasn't able to capture sectors, so even if the P.210 were to be imbalanced in a 1v1 environment vs a 109G (which is what we've been talking about) it is still well balanced in terms of general gameplay.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


                                                                                                                                 Click the Pictures to Visit My YouTube Channel.


losttwo #72 Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:47 PM

    which way do we go?

  • Community Ace
  • 2240 battles
  • 13,392
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    05-15-2012

Back on Topic of Stock vs Upgrade vs Specialized.

 

WOWP BB ( before bots ).

We use to have discussion threads about 3 tier spread.

People often times would complain about the disparity between tier 4 planes being matched against tier 6

Many people would cry that tier 4 planes could not beat nor stand a chance against tier 6 planes.

The original Akamatsu Medal was for being able to destroy a plane 2 tiers higher than yours.

Tier 4 plane being able to destroy 3 tier 6 planes was possible and easy to do.

 

What we have now in WOWP AB ( after bots ) is basically a similar problem.

Instead of the 3 tier spread you now have the STOCK -UPGRADE- SPECIALIZED " spread.

 

Many people would complain in similar fashion about various situation and certain match ups being unbeatable.

I-16's vs Bf110's would be one simple example ( during WOWP BB ), I-17 vs a BF110 and a BF 109.

 

Is there a huge difference between a STOCK plane and an UPGRADE plane.

Yes, a big difference, even the way the planes are played is different.

Imagine taking a tier 4 stock plane into a match against an upgraded tier 6.

Well those days are gone but many people remember the grind.

It was doable, you also had humans to help and did not have to try and carry a team to win.

Even now with a tier 4 stock vs tier 5 elite plane it is doable. The bots are good enough to carry the win.

It only takes a few battles to gain the upgrades .

 

As for the " specialized " planes you encounter. They too can be beat, just do not get in front of them.

The front is where the guns are.

If it's a fast plane then slow down and turn into his turn making yours tighter.

There are lots of things you can do to avoid getting tagged if you know your strengths.

Even helps if you know your enemies strengths and weakness from having flight time in that plane.

 

Don't let the huge disparity discourage you from continuing in the game.

Do not let it influence you into thinking the match will be an automatic loss.

Keep pushing through and trying to win every match. Do not let fear stop you from trying.

Bigger better planes and players can be beat.

We have the bigger better planes because we started were you are and did not give up.



mnbv_fockewulfe #73 Posted 25 May 2019 - 12:13 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 493 battles
  • 3,410
  • [3NIC] 3NIC
  • Member since:
    12-06-2013
Get room already and post the replay :P

Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 


 


trikke #74 Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:08 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 3064 battles
  • 2,912
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012
i gotta admit that this was interesting to read
Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users