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Stock vs Upgraded disparity is huge.


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Zenn3k #1 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:34 PM

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So I haven't played a huge amount, but I have played enough to get a good feel for how most of the systems work, finally learned about upgrading equipment recently, and calibrating that and how that systems work, etc.

 

My current favorite plane to fly right now is the P-38F, when it was stock, it was just awful, but once I got specialist and upgraded those item slots...I have +20% fire chance, +5% crit, +20% accuracy with all things combined, its totally changed entire plane from a fast but lackluster one to a killing machine.   And those aren't even the best upgrades I could have yet.

 

This brings me to my complaint:

 

An upgraded plane, in either, pilot skills or just upgraded equipment with calibration is VASTLY superior to a stock plane, so much so that it really feels to me like taking any plane out stock is a waste of time.    On many planes, I take the stock version out and its guns are shooting spit wads and the plane barely makes 300 MPH, but after a few games, upgrades and its like its an entirely different plane.

 

I get that this is likely designed like this to give the player progression feels, but WOW is the contrast massive, so much so its really off-putting to try out new lines of planes.     How am I suppose to know if I'll enjoy a plane enough to get it to Specialist when the plane will perform VASTLY different once I unlock that due to everything I can equip and upgrade?

 

This disparity is too large IMO, the upgrades are massive % swings.    Its basically a promise that if you see another human with a specialist plane, you aren't gonna be in for an enjoyable fight as they out-gun you, out-turn you, out zoom you, even if you're flying the same thing you are.



GeorgePatton #2 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:47 PM

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Hey Zenn3k!

 

First of all, welcome to World of Warplanes and the forums!

 

A good place to start with figuring out which planes you would enjoy is through engaging with the community! You've already started that process by putting up this post! If you could tell us a little more about the playstyle you enjoy, we could probably start helping you out in more specific ways. It seems you enjoy flying the P-38F and so I'll assume you are, at least for now, mostly a heavy-fighter player.

 

The US heavy fighters are amazing except for the XF5U which is currently really nerfed due to the way it used to be ridiculously over-powered. The F2H regains that solid 'American Heavy' feel and the XF-90 is simply amazing in terms of firepower and airspeed.

 

As far as specialization goes, the specializations aren't always an 'upgrade' as much as a 'pigeon-holing' of an aircraft into a very specific (specialized) play style. Each equipment 'upgrade' comes with a pretty limiting 'downgrade' that really forces the players to make choices about how they would like to fly that particular aircraft. As you specialize to suit your taste, you'll start to feel more comfortable in the aircraft and as a result, you'll probably do better! It doesn't make a specialist aircraft unbeatable and often players with the specialist tags don't really know how to use their aircraft any better than they did without the specialist status and 'sidegrades' (I prefer sidegrades to upgrades as the specialization really does limit the aircraft). The trick is to observe how the specialized aircraft is being used and once you learn the equipment and pilot skills, you'll start to understand where the weaknesses are and how to use that to your advantage.

 

By way of example, my personal favorite aircraft is the Blohm und Voss BV P.210. I have it specialized into a turning rocket platform. It's extremely deadly when I fly it. Many of the good players have learned it's weakness which is my pilot is completely vulnerable with about a 60% reduction in resistance to injury, my plane catches fire at the drop of a hat (-45% resistance to fire), my engine will go out pretty much every time I get hit (I think around a 55% decrease in resistance to engine damage?) and I took a pretty big hit to overall aircraft health in order to specialize it into the turning rocket launcher that it is.

 

For all of those drawbacks, I get a time to turn of 9.7 seconds for 360 degrees and a 41 second reload time for the R4M air-to-air rockets. I have to constantly be looking around to make sure I'm not going to be bounced and always prepared to leave a target to take evasive action. If something gets in front of me, it usually explodes from rockets. Those rockets are a real trick to master, though and so not everyone wants to specialize the BV P.210 into a rocket build.

 

If you have any further questions, ask away! A lot of people here are willing to help! I also suggest joining the official Wargaming World of Warplanes Discord channel. There's a lot of really awesome people in there that will help you out  learning the game, tell you which planes they do well in, how they build them, etc!

 

Again, welcome to World of Warplanes and the forum!

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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NL_Celt #3 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:55 PM

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Ahh, so that is what has been happening to me. I knew it couldn't be just me, lol.

 

I haven't gotten Specialist on anything yet. Will be curious to see how it feels.



Captain_Underpants53 #4 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:56 PM

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I can really only speak about bombers.  IMO, specialization in them isn't a luxury.  It's a requirement.
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Zenn3k #5 Posted 20 May 2019 - 06:00 PM

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Thanks for the welcome.

 

I have played some normal fighters and heavy fighters mostly, the bombers seem rather pointless to me (especially when I'm snapping them out of the sky with ease).

 

I don't really feel like I made any negative trade offs to get the benefits I have gotten.   The aiming improvement comes at the cost of pilot injury, which is just a 6k consumable to fix.   That is currently upgrades to +14 accuracy -13 pilot injury...as I messed up a little with the calibration stuff (I know better now), but still, thats a HUGE gain for something that gives little to no negative.    I have the gun upgrade for rate of fire...which decreases my accuracy slightly, but thats already boosted +14% plus what I gain from pilot skills, its just shaving off a little of my accuracy for RoF, and since my accuracy improvement is WELL above the negative given for RoF, its still pretty just much a flat increase in fire-power for me.     I'm using the frame that allows better maneuverability at the cost of engine failure...but also using the engine upgrade to reduce engine failure, giving me another flat boost to maneuverability with no real measurable negative.

 

Also, on that pilot injury negative buff...who cares?   As I said, I press 1 and he's back up anyway, and chances are IMO if you are taking fire at all, you will be dead in the next 5 seconds anyway, so anything that affects things like Pilot or Engines are rather moot.   You either die in a few seconds after it goes out, or your have your consumable available to fix it, so who cares?  

 

I've just been focusing all my planes on accuracy and maneuverability at the expensive of all others things and it seems to work out great with no measurable negatives in sight.    Still just seems like raw power increase to me.    Negatives that influence RNG factors that themselves don't matter in 90% of situations seems like a poor way to balance these very powerful upgrades. 


Edited by Zenn3k, 20 May 2019 - 06:03 PM.


GeorgePatton #6 Posted 20 May 2019 - 06:08 PM

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Sounds like you're learning to balance the plane how you enjoy it! That's awesome!

 

Couple suggestions, though:

 

  • Don't calibrate equipment until you get it to 'Ultimate' status - it's a waste of materials as you'll have to calibrate at every level and it's soooo expensive in terms of materials to calibrate.
  • As you get into more specialized builds, you'll start to have to choose between carrying something like a fire extinguisher vs the pilot health pack. Most of the planes I fly (if not all of them) only have one cockpit consumable slot. Like I said, with my BV P.210 it catches fire very easily and while I can out-maneuver most planes (I use the control upgrade consumable to compete with planes that are more maneuverable) they often set me on fire as we go into the turn and I have to have an extinguisher or I'll die before I can hit my opponent with a rocket for the insta-kill. That means I can't heal my pilot, which means my guns get really inaccurate and my rockets spread more increasing the chance of my opponent dodging them.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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losttwo #7 Posted 20 May 2019 - 06:10 PM

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Welcome to WOWP and the forums.

 

While it may seem that specialized planes are OP one must remember that

A good pilot can maker a bad plane look good. A bad pilot can make a good plane look bad.

 

Even in stock planes it is no large task to defeat a specialized player.

They can be engaged  with another target.

They can be very low on hit points already.

If they have no tail gunner and you get them from behind...well, you know what happens.

Even attacking from the flank they really do not stand a chance.

That is the key. The part of staying out of the north end of a plane.

 

Bf100B  ( IV ) elite keeping some P-38F ( V ) specialized in in a turn so the tail gunner can finish him off.

doing twice in match.

Then seeing him after re spawn and catching up to him to eliminate him after the squall line.

He was engaged with another target and when he realized I had him in my sights, it was to late.

 

Is there a huge disparity between planes, basic or otherwise ?

YES, there needs to be for some of these pilots that think they know what the heck they are doing.

Far to many need every bit of help they can get.

 

Do not be shy about advancing to a new plane, learning a new line.

That is really what the game is about.

Moving up to the next " level " and flying the other planes.

 

Having enough in your hangar selection to pick and choose what you want to play at any given time and be good at them.

 

 



wylleEcoyote #8 Posted 20 May 2019 - 07:08 PM

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Zenck you pretty much have hit the nail on the head when it comes to "why specialize?"

In this game there is no armor that can not be defeated. The ammo never runs out (but it will slow down for a bit)  but your hit points eventually will. No matter how tanky your build is.
In point of fact Tanky in this game means that someone has to take three or so gun passes at you before you be come a burning debris field. which translates into 5-10 extra seconds to DO SOMETHING before you are dead.
Or you survive a head on ram attack when by all rights you should not. (Kamikaze build zeros should not survive head on collisions with heavy fighters. But they do. Even with nerfed manuverability from being tanky they still out turn most planes and catch fire just from harsh language used within their vicinity. Because they are still a Zero. 

So with that inevitability in mind many players simply run about in the equivalent of stoopid fast or crazy agile Glass Cannons. And not just because bitchez luv em. It is because the best defense is to not get hit. This leads to the two "meta's" currently competing for dominance in the game. Turn&Burn or Boom&Zoom.

Patton's Bvp.210 build is is an excellent example of the turny kind.  and just one of soooo many.
A different example would be my Thunderbolt . It may not turn very well but its enough for what i use it for.
Far more importantly it can race your Lightning and (sometimes) win. And do it with a full ordinance load.
Neither one is what anyone would call "durable".

 

But that only matters if someone on the minimap all of a sudden makes a sharp turn and vectors in toward our plane. Thats usually the only warning you get before you see the incoming tracers start getting too close to your plane.


Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is much like my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
Usually I start on the right track and then a make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 
And yet it doesn't stop me from speculation.

Specialist Planes I have from : Japan, USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Europe
Light Fighters:   XP-31, Model 81A-1, P-40, P-51A, P-39N-1, XF15C, DH.100 F1, Fw 56, He 112, Bf 109 B / E / E-3 / F, Me209v4, Me209 A, I-17
Multi-Roles: Type 91, F11C-2, F4F, P-47B, Fw 190 A-1 / A-5 / D, I- 5 / 15 / 16(e)(l)

Heavy Fighters: P-38 F/J,  XP-58, Beaufighter,  Bf 110 C-6, Me 410, Do 335 A-1, Me 262, Tu-1, SE 100,

Attack Aircraft: Hs 123, Ha 137, Hs 129 A, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2
Bombers: Do 17 Z, He 111 H2, Pe-2, Do 217 M
 


CorvusCorvax #9 Posted 20 May 2019 - 07:21 PM

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The P-38F is a special case.  Stock, at-tier, it is good.  Specialized?  It's a T6 plane.

Zenn3k #10 Posted 20 May 2019 - 07:41 PM

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View PostwylleEcoyote, on 20 May 2019 - 07:08 PM, said:

Zenck you pretty much have hit the nail on the head when it comes to "why specialize?"

In this game there is no armor that can not be defeated. The ammo never runs out (but it will slow down for a bit)  but your hit points eventually will. No matter how tanky your build is.
In point of fact Tanky in this game means that someone has to take three or so gun passes at you before you be come a burning debris field. which translates into 5-10 extra seconds to DO SOMETHING before you are dead.
Or you survive a head on ram attack when by all rights you should not. (Kamikaze build zeros should not survive head on collisions with heavy fighters. But they do. Even with nerfed manuverability from being tanky they still out turn most planes and catch fire just from harsh language used within their vicinity. Because they are still a Zero. 

So with that inevitability in mind many players simply run about in the equivalent of stoopid fast or crazy agile Glass Cannons. And not just because bitchez luv em. It is because the best defense is to not get hit. This leads to the two "meta's" currently competing for dominance in the game. Turn&Burn or Boom&Zoom.

Patton's Bvp.210 build is is an excellent example of the turny kind.  and just one of soooo many.
A different example would be my Thunderbolt . It may not turn very well but its enough for what i use it for.
Far more importantly it can race your Lightning and (sometimes) win. And do it with a full ordinance load.
Neither one is what anyone would call "durable".

 

But that only matters if someone on the minimap all of a sudden makes a sharp turn and vectors in toward our plane. Thats usually the only warning you get before you see the incoming tracers start getting too close to your plane.

Indeed, I was feeling like those were only real choices in terms of specializations as well.     Accuracy and Maneuverability > All as I suspected.

Turning is so important that it trumps all other factors, so picking a fighter to play seems to come down to "which plane turns better" and then spending every possible upgrade on further improving that.    If the enemy can't stay on your 6 because you can out turn them, nothing else matters.    

 

This issue with fighters is why I have taken a liking to the Heavy Fighters, since straight up dog-fights with opposing fighters are not what you ever wanna be doing, so I can avoid the "turn battle" entirely by using Zoom and Boom tactics.



TankNoob1960 #11 Posted 20 May 2019 - 07:55 PM

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I actually LOOK at the available SLOTS for Specialization BEFORE I decide to go ahead and Specialize it.

The slots will differ from plane to plane and tier to tier.

I have a lot of Specialized planes and enjoy the bonuses to guns specifically.

NONE of them are "world beaters" as you are only one plane in the team, but a KI-102 or a XF-85, or a BV-212 become very powerful with the Specialist option.

Find the planes that work for you to begin with, they only get better when you Specialize them.

Bombers and Heavy Fighters benefit from Specialization specifically, though my IL-40 with gunsights is amazing for a GA at taking out low flying ADA and enemy planes, and my KI-84/KI-94-II are great examples of a better handling turn fighter, and my KI-102 is just the best Heavy Fighter in it's tier by far...IMO

Good Luck,

Gunny


Edited by TankNoob1960, 20 May 2019 - 07:59 PM.

 

 


mnbv_fockewulfe #12 Posted 20 May 2019 - 08:29 PM

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Holy crow, all the walls of text. :ohmy:

Let me go through the trouble of reading all these, at a glance it doesn't look like anyone actually responded to your statement. :sceptic:


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mnbv_fockewulfe #13 Posted 20 May 2019 - 08:40 PM

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Allow me to reiterate.

 

Specialist greatly increases the potential of a plane compared to it's elite (not stock, stock means it's in the condition you buy it at) configuration.

Specialist is broken in balance even at the very base level of having more consumable slots than a base aircraft.

Will having a specialist plane make you invincible? Of course not. But it is in many cases a straight up upgrade to an elite aircraft, barring asine equipment slots for some planes and module locks (the negatives really have little impact on the performance of plane in comparison to the buffs from ultimate equipment).

There are many factors that determine which team wins in a battle, but I have found out from my community events that one team having more specialist planes than the other is a factor.

Think of specialist as a skill multiplier. It doesn't replace skill, but the higher skill level the player the even great outcome from using specialist.

Which is why I hate it.  


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trikke #14 Posted 20 May 2019 - 09:11 PM

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one time, at band camp, i specialized my p-38f

 

and it took away my favorite 20mms and forced me to use the unloved 37mm

 

still want them back


Edited by trikke, 21 May 2019 - 02:07 AM.

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TankNoob1960 #15 Posted 20 May 2019 - 09:14 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 20 May 2019 - 12:40 PM, said:

There are many factors that determine which team wins in a battle, but I have found out from my community events that one team having more specialist planes than the other is a factor.

Think of specialist as a skill multiplier. It doesn't replace skill, but the higher skill level the player the even great outcome from using specialist.

Which is why I hate it.  

 

This is because in order to actually Specialize a plane, you FIRST have to FLY IT at least 100+ battles.

(Stock to Elite, Elite to Specialized = LOTS of battles as the tiers go up)

So...Any pilot in a Specialized plane PROBABLY KNOWS how to FLY IT to suit their playing style and then SPECIALIZE for those TRAITS.

That COMBO (Pilot knowledge and Upgraded plane) can be deadly. IMO

Best Regards,

Gunny


 

 


Captain_Rownd #16 Posted 20 May 2019 - 09:14 PM

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The pilot (player) is still a lot more important than the equipment.  The upgrade grind in this game is quite forgiving.  The Specialist grind is a little longer.  A lot of players make the mistake of thinking they have to force a win every battle, and if they can't force it there's "something wrong".  Just fly the plane, shoot crap, have fun, learn the limitations and capabilities while they're the most obvious.

Edited by Captain_Rownd, 21 May 2019 - 06:05 PM.

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mnbv_fockewulfe #17 Posted 20 May 2019 - 09:18 PM

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View PostTankNoob1960, on 20 May 2019 - 09:14 PM, said:

 

This is because in order to actually Specialize a plane, you FIRST have to FLY IT at least 100+ battles.

(Stock to Elite, Elite to Specialized = LOTS of battles as the tiers go up)

So...Any pilot in a Specialized plane PROBABLY KNOWS how to FLY IT to suit their playing style and then SPECIALIZE for those TRAITS.

That COMBO (Pilot knowledge and Upgraded plane) can be deadly. IMO

Best Regards,

Gunny

 

Look no further than specialized spitfires.

Sure they know "how to fly the plane" but that doesn't mean they're good at it or the game.

And "specialization" is a lie for the reasons I mentioned: asine equipment slots and locked top modules.

I cannot "specialize" my Fw 190D to fly with 4x20mm using "specialist". :facepalm:


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qu33kKC #18 Posted 20 May 2019 - 09:36 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 20 May 2019 - 09:11 PM, said:

one time, at band camp, i specializes my p-38f

 

and it took away my favorite 20mms and forced me to use the unloved 37mm

 

still want them back

 

same here. 

TankNoob1960 #19 Posted 20 May 2019 - 09:39 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 20 May 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

 

Look no further than specialized spitfires.

Sure they know "how to fly the plane" but that doesn't mean they're good at it or the game.

And "specialization" is a lie for the reasons I mentioned: asine equipment slots and locked top modules.

I cannot "specialize" my Fw 190D to fly with 4x20mm using "specialist". :facepalm:

 

Not really a "lie" per se... Disappointing that on SOME PLANES there are top modules not available.

When I see a Specialized plane, I ASSUME that the pilot has a pretty good idea of both the plane and the game and look to take them out.

They had to be "good enough" or committed enough to Specialize it in the 1st place so they are always my priority targets throughout the battle.

And it IS an advantage (as it should be).

Take 2 nearly equal pilots and 2 Spitfires.

Give a Spec Spitfire to one of them and have them battle it out.

The Spec plane will win 90% on turn speed and acceleration alone.

Gunny


Edited by TankNoob1960, 20 May 2019 - 09:45 PM.

 

 


Zenn3k #20 Posted 20 May 2019 - 09:41 PM

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View Postqu33kKC, on 20 May 2019 - 09:36 PM, said:

 

same here. 

 

I prefer the 37mm myself, getting criticals on bombers for 75% of their HP is pretty awesome.




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