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Limit GA/Bombers in Flight


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Stygian_Alchemist #41 Posted 20 May 2019 - 11:32 PM

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View PostLMG, on 20 May 2019 - 04:52 PM, said:

 

Hold on, as far as I'm aware the matchmaker just takes into account the tier of the highest tier plane in a flight. This means that if you have a tier 6 and a tier 7 in a flight, you'll either get a tier 6-7 or a tier 7-8 match; in one the tier 6 is already downtiered, and in the other he's probably hopeless depending on what they're facing. You'd get better results just playing two tier 7s, as you'll see the same types of matches.

 

It's built this way so you cannot exploit a tier 10 flighted up with a tier 1-2, and it mostly harms the team that has the undertiered plane :amazed:

 

If I take a T6 and a T5 flighted, all the matches will be T6/5. There will be no T7/6 matches. Meaning it takes into account the tiers of both planes, not -just- the highest.

CorvusCorvax #42 Posted 20 May 2019 - 11:50 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 20 May 2019 - 05:33 PM, said:

 

I think it's perfectly acceptable to be down-tiered in that way. If it's OK to be matched against tier 9 as a tier 8 flying solo, it shouldn't be a problem in a flight. Same goes for all tiers. One of the things that I believe makes split-tiering unfair is that you're deliberately exploiting the system. You're taking a layer of the game and eliminating it through manipulation to give you a greater chance of winning. It's that simple.

 

Let's break it down to single players vs flights in queue:

 

Single Player:

  • Gets thrown into a match based purely on their aircraft - the MM does not account for a flight mate or anything else.

Flight: 

  • Gets put in the match based on two aircraft.

 

Single Player:

  • Does not have a wingman that they can track, and in most cases, communicate with via VoIP.

Flight:

  • Has two players who are, in most cases, communicating via VoIP and coordinating attacks, clearing each other's tail, etc.

 

Right there, the match already favors a flight. A group of two players is going to be more powerful than a single player in most cases when down-tiered, same-tiered, and up-tiered.

 

Now, let's introduce split-tiering...

 

Single Player:

  • Can do absolutely nothing to influence whether they will be down-tiered, same-tiered, or up-tiered.

Flight:

  • Can further boost their advantage by split-tiering to greatly decrease the probability (if not completely eliminate the possibility) of the higher-tier aircraft being down-tiered.

 

As anyone who tracks what I'm saying can see, that's an unfair exploitation of the match-making system. It's no longer about flying with a buddy, it's clearly about gaining an edge in the match-making and on top of that, having a better success rate due to having two coordinated players.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

Nope, it still doesn't make sense.  Why should I, as a member of a flight of two T9 planes, get set up against a flight of two T10 planes?  Why should I have to accept that as valid, but not me in a T9 and my flight mate in a T10, against two T10 planes?

 

Flights CAN be stronger than a pair of singles.  But it's not a guarantee.  It is ALMOST guaranteed that a flight of T10s will beat a flight of T9s.  Almost.  Which is what I am asking about, not some grouping of singles.  That scenario doesn't mean anything to me, and is completely beside the point.  The double-downtier is what I am talking about.  So I'll ask you again - Against a flight of top-tier opponents, why is it acceptable for me and my flightmate (at the same tier as me) to be double-downtiered, but not acceptable to have him at T10 and me at T9?  The reasoning you offer makes zero sense.



Captain_Underpants53 #43 Posted 21 May 2019 - 12:19 AM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 20 May 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

 

If I take a T6 and a T5 flighted, all the matches will be T6/5. There will be no T7/6 matches. Meaning it takes into account the tiers of both planes, not -just- the highest.

 

What she said.

 

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LMG #44 Posted 21 May 2019 - 12:37 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 20 May 2019 - 07:19 PM, said:

What she said.

 

:medal:

 

Wait, what? When did that change? So what happens if you take a tier 10 and a tier 1? Are all your matches tier 5? :amazed:


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Captain_Underpants53 #45 Posted 21 May 2019 - 01:26 AM

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View PostLMG, on 20 May 2019 - 07:37 PM, said:

 

Wait, what? When did that change? So what happens if you take a tier 10 and a tier 1? Are all your matches tier 5? :amazed:

 

No.  You will be in 10 or 9 and good luck!

 


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Stygian_Alchemist #46 Posted 21 May 2019 - 02:17 AM

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View PostLMG, on 20 May 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

 

Wait, what? When did that change? So what happens if you take a tier 10 and a tier 1? Are all your matches tier 5? :amazed:

 

T8/8 flight = T8/9 or T7/8 possible battles
T7/8 flight = T7/8 battles only
T4/8 flight = T7/8 battles only
T1/8 flight = T7/8 battles only

As an example.

This means there is no benefit to have more than 1 tier split, but there -is- a benefit to flying with that split. That benefit is that you minimize your pool of planes to only two possible tiers you can be facing.

Whereas.. if I fly solo

T8 = T7/8 and 8/9 battles.
T7 = T6/7 and 7/8 battles.
T6 = T5/6 and 6/7 battles.

Edit: To be Clear, the MM is very bad about taking flights in general into consideration.. it mostly doesn't and the one point it does allows you to game the MM tiering system.

Edited by White_Widow18, 21 May 2019 - 02:18 AM.


Booze_Morgan #47 Posted 21 May 2019 - 03:38 AM

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Y'all keep bit&^ing about flights. We will lose 2 man flights like we lost 3 man.

 

Booze


Edited by Booze_Morgan, 21 May 2019 - 03:53 AM.

Spoiler

 


Captain_Underpants53 #48 Posted 21 May 2019 - 03:56 AM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 20 May 2019 - 09:17 PM, said:

 

T8/8 flight = T8/9 or T7/8 possible battles
T7/8 flight = T7/8 battles only
T4/8 flight = T7/8 battles only
T1/8 flight = T7/8 battles only

As an example.

This means there is no benefit to have more than 1 tier split, but there -is- a benefit to flying with that split. That benefit is that you minimize your pool of planes to only two possible tiers you can be facing.

Whereas.. if I fly solo

T8 = T7/8 and 8/9 battles.
T7 = T6/7 and 7/8 battles.
T6 = T5/6 and 6/7 battles.

Edit: To be Clear, the MM is very bad about taking flights in general into consideration.. it mostly doesn't and the one point it does allows you to game the MM tiering system.

 

Exactly!

 

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losttwo #49 Posted 21 May 2019 - 10:58 AM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 20 May 2019 - 10:38 PM, said:

Y'all keep bit&^ing about flights. We will lose 2 man flights like we lost 3 man.

 

Booze

 

yup, I can see it happening.

trikke #50 Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:12 AM

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but 'wingmanning' is a thing in air combat!

 

wait, did the british, russians, germans or the japanese use wingmen tactics? 

 

it's always seemed to me to be a bit over the top      if you've got an excessive number of planes and pilots, then sure, go ahead 

 

i would think that two individual planes would produce more damage, but i rarely think things through enough


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EZP_MRKARP #51 Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:39 AM

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sound like its the skill less bomber flights  are the pain, fly high and circle jerk the whole game

Booze_Morgan #52 Posted 21 May 2019 - 02:29 PM

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View PostEZP_MRKARP, on 21 May 2019 - 05:39 AM, said:

sound like its the skill less bomber flights  are the pain, fly high and circle jerk the whole game

 

I thought that is what bombers do, fly high and drop loads.
Spoiler

 


GeorgePatton #53 Posted 21 May 2019 - 03:04 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 20 May 2019 - 06:50 PM, said:

 

Nope, it still doesn't make sense.  Why should I, as a member of a flight of two T9 planes, get set up against a flight of two T10 planes?  Why should I have to accept that as valid, but not me in a T9 and my flight mate in a T10, against two T10 planes?

 

Flights CAN be stronger than a pair of singles.  But it's not a guarantee.  It is ALMOST guaranteed that a flight of T10s will beat a flight of T9s.  Almost.  Which is what I am asking about, not some grouping of singles.  That scenario doesn't mean anything to me, and is completely beside the point.  The double-downtier is what I am talking about.  So I'll ask you again - Against a flight of top-tier opponents, why is it acceptable for me and my flightmate (at the same tier as me) to be double-downtiered, but not acceptable to have him at T10 and me at T9?  The reasoning you offer makes zero sense.

 

Your argument's perspective is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion as splitting at tier 9-10 is actually a bad idea. It means that the tier 9 guy is definitely going to see a tier 10 match - why not just take two 10s?

 

The biggest issue, IMO is when people split at the 'period' splits. A tier 7 with an 8 to ensure the 8 (period 3) sees 7s (period 2) and essentially gets a massive power buff due to the difference in periods. Same for 4-5. It's when the split-tiering system is used to bring a plane into a fight that gives it an unfair advantage that there is a problem. Again, tier 9-10 split is disadvantageous for the tier 9 player. I've never seen a 9-10 split flight and I think we all know why. I'm not saying it has never happened, but it surely isn't a regular occurrence. 

 

Think of it this way - would you like to see me running my specialized BV P.210 in a split flight with a tier 7? I would never see 9s and would almost exclusively be in battles with 4 8s at the top and the rest filled with 7s. Completely unfair. Flying that same plane solo, I see about 40% of my matches (going by feeling here, no actual math) have at least 4 tier 9s in them. The majority of my matches are primarily tier 8. Split tiering breaks the system plain and simple.

 

 

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Booze_Morgan #54 Posted 21 May 2019 - 05:15 PM

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I agree with the guy who said, and I have been saying since just post 1.5, more human population is the answer.  Nothing you do, no rules changes, no MM tweaks, nothing will do anything but create more problems until WG can bring in more pilots and more pilots WHO STAY.

 

Booze


Spoiler

 


CorvusCorvax #55 Posted 21 May 2019 - 06:49 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 21 May 2019 - 03:04 PM, said:

 

Your argument's perspective is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion as splitting at tier 9-10 is actually a bad idea. It means that the tier 9 guy is definitely going to see a tier 10 match - why not just take two 10s?

 

The biggest issue, IMO is when people split at the 'period' splits. A tier 7 with an 8 to ensure the 8 (period 3) sees 7s (period 2) and essentially gets a massive power buff due to the difference in periods. Same for 4-5. It's when the split-tiering system is used to bring a plane into a fight that gives it an unfair advantage that there is a problem. Again, tier 9-10 split is disadvantageous for the tier 9 player. I've never seen a 9-10 split flight and I think we all know why. I'm not saying it has never happened, but it surely isn't a regular occurrence. 

 

Think of it this way - would you like to see me running my specialized BV P.210 in a split flight with a tier 7? I would never see 9s and would almost exclusively be in battles with 4 8s at the top and the rest filled with 7s. Completely unfair. Flying that same plane solo, I see about 40% of my matches (going by feeling here, no actual math) have at least 4 tier 9s in them. The majority of my matches are primarily tier 8. Split tiering breaks the system plain and simple.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

You're still not answering my question.  Why are you avoiding it?  BTW, I have been double-downtiered at T4, T5, T6, T7, T8, and T9.  So, your exception at T10 is the thing that's irrelevant.  Not part of a flight, Ibut as a downtiered victim of a T4 flight, I played a battle this last month in my FW57 where I got to spend a bunch of time in respawn as the two single humans on my side got to be T3, and the other guys got to be T4.  My human partner dropped before the battle started.  Which was smart - at least he didn't waste 8 minutes of battle time on the wrong end of a ROTFLstomp.  But hey, that flight was same-tiered, so OK, right?  LOL.

 

We who do split flights are trying to avoid that scenario.  We are trying to have at least one of us have the capacity to influence the battle in a positive way.  Getting double-downtiered in a T4/5 battle sucks.  7/8 isn't too bad, depending on the planes.  Personally, I love zapping T8 HFs and bombers with my Tu-1.  Bring your T8 Batplane.  My Bf-109G eats those guys up.  I've shot down a few with my B-32 as well.  :)  But a flighted pair of Do-335s against a couple of humans at T7, according to you, is fine.  Nope, still doesn't make sense.



GeorgePatton #56 Posted 21 May 2019 - 07:25 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 20 May 2019 - 11:26 AM, said:

 

I guess I am not understanding the objection to not being double-downtiered.  Is it acceptable to be downtiered against a flight of Yak-30s?  I mean, that's the thing that gets me.  I have been in several battles where my flight of two HGIIs gets downtiered against Yak-30s.  Somehow that's OK, but a split-tier flight isn't.

 

Explain it to me.  Use logic, because emotional arguments don't move my needle.

 

I'll answer all of your questions one more time.

 

Yes, it is acceptable to be down-tiered against a flight of Yak-30s. Has happened to me on many occasions. I suck it up and shoot 'em down. The way the MM is programmed it's a definite possibility to be down-tiered against a tier 10 flight. The only way that ever won't happen is if Wargaming makes T10 only see T10. For what it's worth, I've only ever been down-tiered vs a flight of 10s when I was flying solo. Again, if you read my previous reply you'll see that one of my main issues with split-tiering is that it gives flights (which already have a coordination advantage over a solo player) an unfair advantage in the MM algorithm. Again, a tier 9/10 split is a stupid split because all that does is ensures the tier 9 will be down-tiered. Just fly two 10s and be top of the pack.

 

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 20 May 2019 - 06:50 PM, said:

 

Nope, it still doesn't make sense.  Why should I, as a member of a flight of two T9 planes, get set up against a flight of two T10 planes?  Why should I have to accept that as valid, but not me in a T9 and my flight mate in a T10, against two T10 planes?

 

Flights CAN be stronger than a pair of singles.  But it's not a guarantee.  It is ALMOST guaranteed that a flight of T10s will beat a flight of T9s.  Almost.  Which is what I am asking about, not some grouping of singles.  That scenario doesn't mean anything to me, and is completely beside the point.  The double-downtier is what I am talking about.  So I'll ask you again - Against a flight of top-tier opponents, why is it acceptable for me and my flightmate (at the same tier as me) to be double-downtiered, but not acceptable to have him at T10 and me at T9?  The reasoning you offer makes zero sense.

 

Why shouldn't you? It happens to solo players all. the. time. You want the advantage of having a wingman and not encountering situations that solo players cannot possibly avoid? Again, flighting a 9 and a 10 is stupid if you're trying to avoid being down-tiered. Just fly two 10s.

 

Your secondary argument here is rather at odds with your initial argument because you're basically saying "I can beat a flight of 10s when I'm down-tiered," which makes me ask why you complain if you think it's possible.

 

Again, being down-tiered vs a flight is something solo players encounter all. the. time. It's something we can't avoid by manipulating the MM since we only have our own plane to go by thus only our 'highest tier' is being considered which is whatever tier we happen to be flying.

 

View PostCorvusCorvax, on 21 May 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

You're still not answering my question.  Why are you avoiding it?  BTW, I have been double-downtiered at T4, T5, T6, T7, T8, and T9.  So, your exception at T10 is the thing that's irrelevant.  Not part of a flight, Ibut as a downtiered victim of a T4 flight, I played a battle this last month in my FW57 where I got to spend a bunch of time in respawn as the two single humans on my side got to be T3, and the other guys got to be T4.  My human partner dropped before the battle started.  Which was smart - at least he didn't waste 8 minutes of battle time on the wrong end of a ROTFLstomp.  But hey, that flight was same-tiered, so OK, right?  LOL.

 

We who do split flights are trying to avoid that scenario.  We are trying to have at least one of us have the capacity to influence the battle in a positive way.  Getting double-downtiered in a T4/5 battle sucks.  7/8 isn't too bad, depending on the planes.  Personally, I love zapping T8 HFs and bombers with my Tu-1.  Bring your T8 Batplane.  My Bf-109G eats those guys up.  I've shot down a few with my B-32 as well.  :)  But a flighted pair of Do-335s against a couple of humans at T7, according to you, is fine.  Nope, still doesn't make sense.

 

I have now answered all of your questions twice. You apparently don't like my answers, and that's OK. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. 

 

Had you read my reply more carefully, you would have understood that the exception at tier 10 (of flying a tier 9 and a tier 10 in a flight) is an exception purely because it is the players own choice to ensure that they don't get an even match by running two tier 10s which cannot possibly be out-tiered due to the tier rankings only going to 10. It's stupid to flight like that - and again, nobody does it.

 

It's interesting that you use the Tu-1 as an example of why you don't mind being down-tiered at 7. The Tu-1 is quite competitive with most tier 8s due to the ridiculous firepower. I'm not sure why you brought the 109G into it - you've obviously never fought my P.210 if you think a 109G in any configuration stands a chance against it. 109G is out-gunned, out-run, and out-turned by the configuration I have on my P.210 right now.

 

In regards to your second to last sentence - if you read my entire suggestion, you'll see that I also proposed limiting flight composition in terms of aircraft class. I never said a flight of Do.335 is acceptable.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

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SkyWolf__WM #57 Posted 21 May 2019 - 09:04 PM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 20 May 2019 - 10:38 PM, said:

Y'all keep bit&^ing about flights. We will lose 2 man flights like we lost 3 man.

 

Booze

 

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CorvusCorvax #58 Posted 21 May 2019 - 09:40 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 21 May 2019 - 07:25 PM, said:

 

I'll answer all of your questions one more time.

 

Yes, it is acceptable to be down-tiered against a flight of Yak-30s. Has happened to me on many occasions. I suck it up and shoot 'em down. The way the MM is programmed it's a definite possibility to be down-tiered against a tier 10 flight. The only way that ever won't happen is if Wargaming makes T10 only see T10. For what it's worth, I've only ever been down-tiered vs a flight of 10s when I was flying solo. Again, if you read my previous reply you'll see that one of my main issues with split-tiering is that it gives flights (which already have a coordination advantage over a solo player) an unfair advantage in the MM algorithm. Again, a tier 9/10 split is a stupid split because all that does is ensures the tier 9 will be down-tiered. Just fly two 10s and be top of the pack.

 

 

Why shouldn't you? It happens to solo players all. the. time. You want the advantage of having a wingman and not encountering situations that solo players cannot possibly avoid? Again, flighting a 9 and a 10 is stupid if you're trying to avoid being down-tiered. Just fly two 10s.

 

Your secondary argument here is rather at odds with your initial argument because you're basically saying "I can beat a flight of 10s when I'm down-tiered," which makes me ask why you complain if you think it's possible.

 

Again, being down-tiered vs a flight is something solo players encounter all. the. time. It's something we can't avoid by manipulating the MM since we only have our own plane to go by thus only our 'highest tier' is being considered which is whatever tier we happen to be flying.

 

 

I have now answered all of your questions twice. You apparently don't like my answers, and that's OK. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. 

 

Had you read my reply more carefully, you would have understood that the exception at tier 10 (of flying a tier 9 and a tier 10 in a flight) is an exception purely because it is the players own choice to ensure that they don't get an even match by running two tier 10s which cannot possibly be out-tiered due to the tier rankings only going to 10. It's stupid to flight like that - and again, nobody does it.

 

It's interesting that you use the Tu-1 as an example of why you don't mind being down-tiered at 7. The Tu-1 is quite competitive with most tier 8s due to the ridiculous firepower. I'm not sure why you brought the 109G into it - you've obviously never fought my P.210 if you think a 109G in any configuration stands a chance against it. 109G is out-gunned, out-run, and out-turned by the configuration I have on my P.210 right now.

 

In regards to your second to last sentence - if you read my entire suggestion, you'll see that I also proposed limiting flight composition in terms of aircraft class. I never said a flight of Do.335 is acceptable.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

P.S., If you think your 109G is all that, I'd be happy to go in a training room with you and show you what the BV P.210 can do.

 

I reject your arguments because they are arbitrary, not because I don't like them.  Your arbitrary and artificial distinctions have ZERO merit.  You don't like split tier because solo fliers.  Ummm, OK.  It's OK to be double-downtiered because solo fliers.  Ummm, OK.

 

Hey, here's a newsflash - solo fliers also get top tier against mixed tier flights!  There goes your solo flier "logic".  See, that's the thing - you have some emotional need to limit flights, and you can't articulate the "why" of it.  Your repetition of your premises do not make them persuasive, at all.

 

LOL@U bragging on the bottom-rung Batplane.  OK, I guess all those that I shot down were imaginary.  Sure.



GeorgePatton #59 Posted 22 May 2019 - 12:28 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 21 May 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

 

I reject your arguments because they are arbitrary, not because I don't like them.  Your arbitrary and artificial distinctions have ZERO merit.  You don't like split tier because solo fliers.  Ummm, OK.  It's OK to be double-downtiered because solo fliers.  Ummm, OK.

 

Hey, here's a newsflash - solo fliers also get top tier against mixed tier flights!  There goes your solo flier "logic".  See, that's the thing - you have some emotional need to limit flights, and you can't articulate the "why" of it.  Your repetition of your premises do not make them persuasive, at all.

 

LOL@U bragging on the bottom-rung Batplane.  OK, I guess all those that I shot down were imaginary.  Sure.

 

You're deliberately ignoring my primary premise which is this - I'll spell it out quite plainly:

 

  1. Flights begin with an advantage over solo players. (coordination)
  2. Split-tiering gives a flight yet another advantage over a single player. It breaks the 'normal' rules of the MM in favor of a unit which is stronger than the two individuals comprising that unit.
  3. There is no way that a single player can emulate that advantage and thus it is not fair to players who are not participating in a flight for the multiple reasons contained in that argument.

 

In response to your 'newsflash' - a solo player will never up-tier a split-tier flight. A solo player will occasionally up-tier a single-tier flight.

 

You're just defending an exploit that you and your cohort have been using to manipulate your statistics making you look better than you actually are. In case nobody noticed - CorvusCorvax refused to put his money where his mouth is and fight me 1v1 Bf.109G vs BV P.210. That's pretty typical of people gaming the system to try to avoid a fight they feel inadequate to win.

 

For what it's worth, here are my stats...

 

 

  • 209 Battles on BV P.210
  • 207 'Rocketeer' ribbons on the BV P.210 (the two battle difference is due to the game bugging out and not letting me back into the battle.)
  • 48 'Golubev's' medals
  • 9 'Ace' medals

 

I guarantee you, CorvusCorvax, that you have not fought a player with the level of competence in the BV P.210 that I possess. Certainly never 1v1 but then again, you seem more like that 'shoot them while they're busy' type of player.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


Edited by GeorgePatton, 22 May 2019 - 12:39 AM.

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Stygian_Alchemist #60 Posted 22 May 2019 - 12:58 AM

    First Lieutenant

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