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Limit GA/Bombers in Flight


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Zigfreid #21 Posted 18 May 2019 - 02:47 AM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 17 May 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

 

I think you missed a big part of my point, mate! The idea of limiting classes in a flight so we wouldn't see more than one aircraft truly capable of hitting GTs and one heavy. The heavies seemed to be the problem before, and GA/Bombers are a bit of a problem now.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

In 1.9 an Ace was 5 air kills, in 2.0 its 20 air kills which means fighters are OP X 4.

So lets start with a nurf to all fighters and mult-rolls and limit 2 only of each per game.

Then the super duper turning consumables make fighters OP again so lets nurf them again.

Hey lets just nurf every thing that shoots bombers and ground attacks to make an even playing field.

George you are right it is so fun to nurf every thing that bothers you, hey lets nurf GEORGE!!!!!



hoom #22 Posted 18 May 2019 - 04:50 AM

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Keep 2 person Flights.

1* Bomber/GA max.

Block split-tiering.

Ensure non-Flight players on enemy team are not down-tiered relative to the Flight & equal in numbers

(eg I've been a single T7 player in a battle against a T8 Flight, though I've not seen that sort of thing again or recently)


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Bobby_Tables #23 Posted 18 May 2019 - 06:04 AM

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View PostZigfreid, on 17 May 2019 - 08:47 PM, said:

 

In 1.9 an Ace was 5 air kills, in 2.0 its 20 air kills which means fighters are OP X 4.

So lets start with a nurf to all fighters and mult-rolls and limit 2 only of each per game.

Then the super duper turning consumables make fighters OP again so lets nurf them again.

Hey lets just nurf every thing that shoots bombers and ground attacks to make an even playing field.

George you are right it is so fun to nurf every thing that bothers you, hey lets nurf GEORGE!!!!!

 

Freaking A right!  

 

Sick of all the "let's nerf this because I got my behind handed to me in a battle" posts.  DEAL WITH IT!

 

My goodness gracious, with 2.0, did they not nerf the combat enough for you?  If no, then maybe find a Teletubbies game that is more your speed.

 

Yes, I stink but once again, I embrace the stink and will continue to stink but not ask for a freebie nerf because I stink. 

 

50% Win rate?  Yeah, that's me.  Do I need a crutch?  Nope, not at all.  

 


Edited by Bobby_Tables, 18 May 2019 - 06:24 AM.


losttwo #24 Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:25 AM

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View PostZigfreid, on 17 May 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

 

In 1.9 an Ace was 5 air kills, in 2.0 its 20 air kills which means fighters are OP X 4.

So lets start with a nurf to all fighters and mult-rolls and limit 2 only of each per game.

Then the super duper turning consumables make fighters OP again so lets nurf them again.

Hey lets just nurf every thing that shoots bombers and ground attacks to make an even playing field.

George you are right it is so fun to nurf every thing that bothers you, hey lets nurf GEORGE!!!!!

 

View PostBobby_Tables, on 18 May 2019 - 01:04 AM, said:

 

Freaking A right!  

 

Sick of all the "let's nerf this because I got my behind handed to me in a battle" posts.  DEAL WITH IT!

 

My goodness gracious, with 2.0, did they not nerf the combat enough for you?  If no, then maybe find a Teletubbies game that is more your speed.

 

Yes, I stink but once again, I embrace the stink and will continue to stink but not ask for a freebie nerf because I stink. 

 

50% Win rate?  Yeah, that's me.  Do I need a crutch?  Nope, not at all.  

 

 

OH MY GOD......I got all tingly reading these this morning.

Can you say goosebumps on top of goosebumps.

 

I wanted to write similar stuff so much.

However, I told myself I am trying to change into a rainbow farting unicorn for this pansy 455 generation

of " do it for me but make it easier ".

 



GeorgePatton #25 Posted 18 May 2019 - 03:56 PM

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View PostZigfreid, on 17 May 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

 

In 1.9 an Ace was 5 air kills, in 2.0 its 20 air kills which means fighters are OP X 4.

So lets start with a nurf to all fighters and mult-rolls and limit 2 only of each per game.

Then the super duper turning consumables make fighters OP again so lets nurf them again.

Hey lets just nurf every thing that shoots bombers and ground attacks to make an even playing field.

George you are right it is so fun to nurf every thing that bothers you, hey lets nurf GEORGE!!!!!

 

Ace is 20 kills because of respawns, not because planes are 4x more powerful or OP. I could probably use a little bit of a nerf. :P

 

View PostBobby_Tables, on 18 May 2019 - 01:04 AM, said:

 

Freaking A right!  

 

Sick of all the "let's nerf this because I got my behind handed to me in a battle" posts.  DEAL WITH IT!

 

My goodness gracious, with 2.0, did they not nerf the combat enough for you?  If no, then maybe find a Teletubbies game that is more your speed.

 

Yes, I stink but once again, I embrace the stink and will continue to stink but not ask for a freebie nerf because I stink. 

 

50% Win rate?  Yeah, that's me.  Do I need a crutch?  Nope, not at all.  

 

 

It's not about 'getting my behind handed to me' it's about things that make the game the opposite of fun. People breaking the game by split-tiering a flight of two GA or a GA/Bomber are making the game simply not fun when you come across them. It's not because of a probable loss - it's because there's really nothing you can do about it. I'm fine with losing as long as it's a fun loss. I also don't like winning if I don't feel like it was a good battle - massive overruns are not fun either.

 

View Postlosttwo, on 18 May 2019 - 04:25 AM, said:

 

 

OH MY GOD......I got all tingly reading these this morning.

Can you say goosebumps on top of goosebumps.

 

I wanted to write similar stuff so much.

However, I told myself I am trying to change into a rainbow farting unicorn for this pansy 455 generation

of " do it for me but make it easier ".

 

 

Again, I'm not asking for things to be made easier - I'm asking Wargaming to ensure that players don't make the game boring and create reasons for people not to play. We've seen that time after time with this game - 3 player flights of heavies, they-who-shall-not-be-named pub stomping in the Bf.110 C-6 at launch, 3 player flights from a specific clan, etc. In terms of ensuring growth and maintaining playerbase, Wargaming needs to keep an eye on which mechanics are being exploited and put things in place to stop the exploitation. That's why I'm making a post in the suggestion forum instead of whining about how player X and Y are skill-less or whatever is the phrase du jour.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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Captain_Underpants53 #26 Posted 18 May 2019 - 04:41 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 18 May 2019 - 10:56 AM, said:

 

Ace is 20 kills because of respawns, not because planes are 4x more powerful or OP. I could probably use a little bit of a nerf. :P

 

 

It's not about 'getting my behind handed to me' it's about things that make the game the opposite of fun. People breaking the game by split-tiering a flight of two GA or a GA/Bomber are making the game simply not fun when you come across them. It's not because of a probable loss - it's because there's really nothing you can do about it. I'm fine with losing as long as it's a fun loss. I also don't like winning if I don't feel like it was a good battle - massive overruns are not fun either.

 

 

Again, I'm not asking for things to be made easier - I'm asking Wargaming to ensure that players don't make the game boring and create reasons for people not to play. We've seen that time after time with this game - 3 player flights of heavies, they-who-shall-not-be-named pub stomping in the Bf.110 C-6 at launch, 3 player flights from a specific clan, etc. In terms of ensuring growth and maintaining playerbase, Wargaming needs to keep an eye on which mechanics are being exploited and put things in place to stop the exploitation. That's why I'm making a post in the suggestion forum instead of whining about how player X and Y are skill-less or whatever is the phrase du jour.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

You are whining about three player flights?  Those have been gone for over two years!  Long memory, I guess.

 

:amazed:


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GeorgePatton #27 Posted 18 May 2019 - 05:11 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 18 May 2019 - 11:41 AM, said:

 

You are whining about three player flights?  Those have been gone for over two years!  Long memory, I guess.

 

:amazed:

 

View PostGeorgePatton, on 17 May 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

I think the flight mechanics are absolutely ridiculous at this point. We have a max of 2 players in a flight so that flights aren't 'overpowered' yet WG will allow split-tiering and won't limit the types of aircraft in a flight. Putting 2 GA or 2 Bombers ore 1 GA and 1 Bomber together (and then letting them split tier as well) is not fun for anyone except maybe the people who like to do it. There's really no way to beat that if you're up-tiered (again, the split-tiering makes sure that the higher guy won't be up-tiered) and flying solo.

 

My suggestion is this:

 

  1. Bring back 3-player flights - it's something the people want and would increase the social aspect of this game which is somewhat lacking at the moment. Tanks and Ships both have 3-player groups.
  2. Limit the flight composition - unlimited number of light fighters, unlimited multirole fighters, 2 heavies max, and a maximum of one dedicated ground-pounder whether that be a GA or Bomber.
  3. Allow split-tiering,  but put the flight in the MM based on the higher tier aircraft's tier, not the lower.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

I'll just leave that there.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


Edited by GeorgePatton, 18 May 2019 - 05:11 PM.

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Prenzlau #28 Posted 18 May 2019 - 05:24 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 18 May 2019 - 09:56 AM, said:

 

Ace is 20 kills because of respawns, not because planes are 4x more powerful or OP. I could probably use a little bit of a nerf. :P

 

 

It's not about 'getting my behind handed to me' it's about things that make the game the opposite of fun. People breaking the game by split-tiering a flight of two GA or a GA/Bomber are making the game simply not fun when you come across them. It's not because of a probable loss - it's because there's really nothing you can do about it. I'm fine with losing as long as it's a fun loss. I also don't like winning if I don't feel like it was a good battle - massive overruns are not fun either.

 

 

Again, I'm not asking for things to be made easier - I'm asking Wargaming to ensure that players don't make the game boring and create reasons for people not to play. We've seen that time after time with this game - 3 player flights of heavies, they-who-shall-not-be-named pub stomping in the Bf.110 C-6 at launch, 3 player flights from a specific clan, etc. In terms of ensuring growth and maintaining playerbase, Wargaming needs to keep an eye on which mechanics are being exploited and put things in place to stop the exploitation. That's why I'm making a post in the suggestion forum instead of whining about how player X and Y are skill-less or whatever is the phrase du jour.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

    There are people who comment about bombers and GA's without a lot of experience flying them or understanding all the factors attached to them. More human players is part of the solution but thats not the current situation. When you talk about battles were there seems to be nothing one side can do, everybody experiences those battles and trying to limit split tiers or bomber flights will change nothing.

    I win as many battles solo as I do flighted. Sometimes being flighted is worse. Even when the other team have humans in heavies and they are aware of me, that in no way translates into me being neutralized in a bomber. We have to fight it out. I'm not trying to brag. My point is that good players will do well regardless. The game may change and some players learn to adapt and be successful. I flight about half the time and not just with Zigfreid or my clannies, but I often will flight with anyone who asks. People who know me know this. In my experience you stand the same chance to win or lose, split tiers or not. 

 

    The effect of good to excellent players simply stands out greater when we have battles with few human players. That said I have been on teams were the other 3-5 humans on my team all sucked. Always tweaking and nerfing the game does not reduce great players and their impacts, but it does start to limit the potential of everyone across the board. 

 

     I understand the psychology of winning and losing as best I can. Losing when it feels like you cannot effect the battle or game sucks. There will always be those types of loses. To be fair, at some point team work and strategy comes into play. I've been defeated by team who have relentlessly attacked and distracted my bombing and they win because they had a plan and executed it. Maybe mindless dog fighting is not always the key to winning. 

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


CorvusCorvax #29 Posted 18 May 2019 - 06:12 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 18 May 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

 

I think you missed a big part of my point, mate!

 

True, I did.  I still disagree with you.  Two-person flights are fine in this game.  Split-tier flights are fine in this game.

trikke #30 Posted 18 May 2019 - 06:41 PM

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View PostClosedCoffin, on 17 May 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

3 player flights is not something I want.

I don't flight but I certainly understand why people like it and that it is good for the game and clan building.

But any competent 3 player flight will be overpowering in any battle if there is not one on the other team imho.

Maybe only allow 3 player flights in battles against a minimum of a 2 player flight on the other team. (yes a wait time problem)

 

 

most flights have competent pilots...  i believe that's the major reason why even average-skill flights are so OP today      

 

so my vote certainly would be 'no 3 pilot flights'        even though i grew up with 3p flights, i strongly believe they pushed new folks away

 

but...   flighted split-tiering sure feels shady, a little bit, but i can't really put my finger on why i feel that way       i see non-flight split tiers almost every battle

 

edit:   excellent topic, GP


Edited by trikke, 18 May 2019 - 06:51 PM.

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GeorgePatton #31 Posted 18 May 2019 - 06:57 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 18 May 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

    There are people who comment about bombers and GA's without a lot of experience flying them or understanding all the factors attached to them. More human players is part of the solution but thats not the current situation. When you talk about battles were there seems to be nothing one side can do, everybody experiences those battles and trying to limit split tiers or bomber flights will change nothing.

    I win as many battles solo as I do flighted. Sometimes being flighted is worse. Even when the other team have humans in heavies and they are aware of me, that in no way translates into me being neutralized in a bomber. We have to fight it out. I'm not trying to brag. My point is that good players will do well regardless. The game may change and some players learn to adapt and be successful. I flight about half the time and not just with Zigfreid or my clannies, but I often will flight with anyone who asks. People who know me know this. In my experience you stand the same chance to win or lose, split tiers or not. 

 

    The effect of good to excellent players simply stands out greater when we have battles with few human players. That said I have been on teams were the other 3-5 humans on my team all sucked. Always tweaking and nerfing the game does not reduce great players and their impacts, but it does start to limit the potential of everyone across the board. 

 

     I understand the psychology of winning and losing as best I can. Losing when it feels like you cannot effect the battle or game sucks. There will always be those types of loses. To be fair, at some point team work and strategy comes into play. I've been defeated by team who have relentlessly attacked and distracted my bombing and they win because they had a plan and executed it. Maybe mindless dog fighting is not always the key to winning. 

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

Again, it's not about win rate. It's about making sure game mechanics aren't being exploited that make playing a battle actually not fun. I don't care if I win or lose as long as I have fun doing it. Playing against a split-tiered flight of GAA or Bombers is not fun win or lose. That flight arrangement is purely 'gaming the system' and should be recognized as such. I don't care about the nuances of bomber/gaa gameplay - it's boring to be with or against a split-tiered flight of bombers/gaa. This isn't an argument about whether or not anyone is 'good' - it's not an argument about whether being in a flight increases/decreases/doesn't affect your win rate. It's about flights being exploited in a way that makes the game not fun. Fun does not equal winning, although winning is often fun.

 

View Posttrikke, on 18 May 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

most flights have competent pilots...  i believe that's the major reason why even average-skill flights are so OP today      

 

so my vote certainly would be 'no 3 pilot flights'        even though i grew up with 3p flights, i strongly believe they pushed new folks away

 

but...   flighted split-tiering sure feels shady, a little bit, but i can't really put my finger on why i feel that way       i see non-flight split tiers almost every battle

 

I would disagree. I don't think most flights have competent pilots. It's pretty rare that I see a flight and think twice about it in the current game. I believe that without the 3 player flights, we're also down a training tool. Back when we had 3 player flights, I would flight up with two people - a newbie and an experienced player and show that new player how we worked together and help them to develop a better feel for the game. That system was also abused by people who didn't care about anything but win rate. It was a two-edged sword. Rather than get rid of 3 player flights altogether, I think it would have been better to have tried limiting the available aircraft types in a flight - much like the CB system in World of Warships limits ship types.

 

I think the reason split-tier flights feel shady is that they're almost exclusively used by players who are trying to pull the higher tier aircraft into a battle where it is the top of the food chain so to speak. As such, it's exploiting the system to create an edge that is less likely for the high tier aircraft were it not flighted with the lower tiered aircraft. It's a deliberate attempt by the players involved to 'break the game'. I can't think of any good reason that someone who is grinding a new plane would want to flight with a higher tier plane. Sure, we could come up with ridiculous scenarios all day, but at the end of the day everyone here knows why people are split-tiering.

 

 

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SkyWolf__WM #32 Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:23 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 18 May 2019 - 01:57 PM, said:

 

I think the reason split-tier flights feel shady is that they're almost exclusively used by players who are trying to pull the higher tier aircraft into a battle where it is the top of the food chain so to speak. As such, it's exploiting the system to create an edge that is less likely for the high tier aircraft were it not flighted with the lower tiered aircraft. It's a deliberate attempt by the players involved to 'break the game'. I can't think of any good reason that someone who is grinding a new plane would want to flight with a higher tier plane. Sure, we could come up with ridiculous scenarios all day, but at the end of the day everyone here knows why people are split-tiering.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

 George. I don't see this as "exploiting the system". 

I just see it as a smart tactic to make sure only 1 member of the flight is out tiered.  :honoring:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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trikke #33 Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:34 PM

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and that's what makes me feel awkward about splitting...  it's a state-sanctioned exploit that is used to protect a flight from both pilots being downtiered

 

like flights need any form of protection anyway, but i digress

 

WG, you could end split-tiering with one line of code, but you haven't 

 

yet


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CorvusCorvax #34 Posted 20 May 2019 - 04:26 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 18 May 2019 - 09:34 PM, said:

and that's what makes me feel awkward about splitting...  it's a state-sanctioned exploit that is used to protect a flight from both pilots being downtiered

 

like flights need any form of protection anyway, but i digress

 

WG, you could end split-tiering with one line of code, but you haven't 

 

yet

 

I guess I am not understanding the objection to not being double-downtiered.  Is it acceptable to be downtiered against a flight of Yak-30s?  I mean, that's the thing that gets me.  I have been in several battles where my flight of two HGIIs gets downtiered against Yak-30s.  Somehow that's OK, but a split-tier flight isn't.

 

Explain it to me.  Use logic, because emotional arguments don't move my needle.



GeorgePatton #35 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:33 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 20 May 2019 - 11:26 AM, said:

 

I guess I am not understanding the objection to not being double-downtiered.  Is it acceptable to be downtiered against a flight of Yak-30s?  I mean, that's the thing that gets me.  I have been in several battles where my flight of two HGIIs gets downtiered against Yak-30s.  Somehow that's OK, but a split-tier flight isn't.

 

Explain it to me.  Use logic, because emotional arguments don't move my needle.

 

I think it's perfectly acceptable to be down-tiered in that way. If it's OK to be matched against tier 9 as a tier 8 flying solo, it shouldn't be a problem in a flight. Same goes for all tiers. One of the things that I believe makes split-tiering unfair is that you're deliberately exploiting the system. You're taking a layer of the game and eliminating it through manipulation to give you a greater chance of winning. It's that simple.

 

Let's break it down to single players vs flights in queue:

 

Single Player:

  • Gets thrown into a match based purely on their aircraft - the MM does not account for a flight mate or anything else.

Flight: 

  • Gets put in the match based on two aircraft.

 

Single Player:

  • Does not have a wingman that they can track, and in most cases, communicate with via VoIP.

Flight:

  • Has two players who are, in most cases, communicating via VoIP and coordinating attacks, clearing each other's tail, etc.

 

Right there, the match already favors a flight. A group of two players is going to be more powerful than a single player in most cases when down-tiered, same-tiered, and up-tiered.

 

Now, let's introduce split-tiering...

 

Single Player:

  • Can do absolutely nothing to influence whether they will be down-tiered, same-tiered, or up-tiered.

Flight:

  • Can further boost their advantage by split-tiering to greatly decrease the probability (if not completely eliminate the possibility) of the higher-tier aircraft being down-tiered.

 

As anyone who tracks what I'm saying can see, that's an unfair exploitation of the match-making system. It's no longer about flying with a buddy, it's clearly about gaining an edge in the match-making and on top of that, having a better success rate due to having two coordinated players.

 

 

Cheers!
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Captain_Underpants53 #36 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:47 PM

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The tiers matchmaking isn't the problem.  The problem is WG treating a flight as one plane.  If they would stop doing that, most of this whole argument would just go away.

 

BTW, I have never seen the slightest attempt by blindfold to explain why the game should treat a flight as a single plane.


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Stygian_Alchemist #37 Posted 20 May 2019 - 08:43 PM

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So.. why not just base the MM off the highest plane in the flight, full stop. Meaning that you might just end up with a 7/8 flight stuck in an 8/9 match. 

Would remove a lot of advantages if you combined it with allowing only one of a class in a flight.

SkyWolf__WM #38 Posted 20 May 2019 - 09:23 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 20 May 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

 

 You're taking a layer of the game and eliminating it through manipulation to give you a greater chance of winning. It's that simple.

 

 

I don't see it that way at all.

 

Flight:

  • Can further boost their advantage by split-tiering to greatly decrease the probability (if not completely eliminate the possibility) of the higher-tier aircraft being down-tiered.

 

There is an advantage to being in a flight. That's too encourage players to flight up or join a clan.  It gets people on coms and trying to plan strategy.  And flighting up does not always equal an advantage. :(

I have flown with a few loons in my days. Most of them might very well say the same thing about me. :P

The advantage of split-tiering decreases (eliminates) the possibility of more than one pilot being up tiered.  :)

Flights that are split eliminate the possibilty of both aircraft being up tiered. You give up the chance that both of you will be top tier to make sure that only one of the pilots is in the lower tier.  :honoring:

 

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 


Edited by SkyWolf__WM, 20 May 2019 - 09:24 PM.

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losttwo #39 Posted 20 May 2019 - 10:35 PM

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LMG #40 Posted 20 May 2019 - 10:52 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 20 May 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

I think it's perfectly acceptable to be down-tiered in that way. If it's OK to be matched against tier 9 as a tier 8 flying solo, it shouldn't be a problem in a flight. Same goes for all tiers. One of the things that I believe makes split-tiering unfair is that you're deliberately exploiting the system. You're taking a layer of the game and eliminating it through manipulation to give you a greater chance of winning. It's that simple.

 

Let's break it down to single players vs flights in queue:

 

Single Player:

  • Gets thrown into a match based purely on their aircraft - the MM does not account for a flight mate or anything else.

Flight: 

  • Gets put in the match based on two aircraft.

 

Single Player:

  • Does not have a wingman that they can track, and in most cases, communicate with via VoIP.

Flight:

  • Has two players who are, in most cases, communicating via VoIP and coordinating attacks, clearing each other's tail, etc.

 

Right there, the match already favors a flight. A group of two players is going to be more powerful than a single player in most cases when down-tiered, same-tiered, and up-tiered.

 

Now, let's introduce split-tiering...

 

Single Player:

  • Can do absolutely nothing to influence whether they will be down-tiered, same-tiered, or up-tiered.

Flight:

  • Can further boost their advantage by split-tiering to greatly decrease the probability (if not completely eliminate the possibility) of the higher-tier aircraft being down-tiered.

 

As anyone who tracks what I'm saying can see, that's an unfair exploitation of the match-making system. It's no longer about flying with a buddy, it's clearly about gaining an edge in the match-making and on top of that, having a better success rate due to having two coordinated players.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

Hold on, as far as I'm aware the matchmaker just takes into account the tier of the highest tier plane in a flight. This means that if you have a tier 6 and a tier 7 in a flight, you'll either get a tier 6-7 or a tier 7-8 match; in one the tier 6 is already downtiered, and in the other he's probably hopeless depending on what they're facing. You'd get better results just playing two tier 7s, as you'll see the same types of matches.

 

It's built this way so you cannot exploit a tier 10 flighted up with a tier 1-2, and it mostly harms the team that has the undertiered plane :amazed:


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