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It's not the bots, it's your decisions that make or break a game.


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CorvusCorvax #81 Posted 16 April 2019 - 09:19 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 16 April 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

Again, you are looking at it from my side.  I am asking you what the afk person did that caused his team to win?

 

Their choice to AFK (or not their choice, stuff happens) had no immediate effect, because they didn't choose to do anything that actually affected anything in-battle.  This is different than choosing to flight up.  This is different than choosing to take the airbase vs, defending the mining plant.  Why would I look at it from his viewpoint when it is possible that he made zero choices (disconnect due to power outage, etc.)  This is about what choices are made in-game, not random events that happen.  Random events DO happen.  But they don't happen as often as folks seem to think.  People are quick to blame the bots for their own failings, and very slow to blame themselves.

 

You admit you made mistakes.  Progress.

 

So, the mistakes you made is it possible that these mistakes were fatal mistakes?  Or that the sum of them were fatal, or was this one of those rare, random games where all the breaks fell the red team's way?


Edited by CorvusCorvax, 18 April 2019 - 07:08 PM.


Captain_Underpants53 #82 Posted 16 April 2019 - 09:29 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 16 April 2019 - 02:48 PM, said:

 

    Your only relevance is that I recognize you and return your messages, so maybe a thank you is in order.

 

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Bubba_Zanetti #83 Posted 16 April 2019 - 09:57 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 16 April 2019 - 01:06 PM, said:

 

    If you are insinuating that I am where I am at because of being flighted you are very much wrong. Do I win a lot while being flighted, yes, of course. I do however win just as much when not being flighted, so in my case it really does not matter. The players who know me and have flown against me know that I'm just as formidable solo as I am in any flight. So it really does not matter. I fly more solo, and I wish I had the stats, I really do. 

 

    The players who "get it" understand, and they would not try to undermine what they know and believe, what they have seen repeatedly with their own eyes. So it does not matter that much to me as to whether I am flighted or not, the same mandates I have still are there. Some people might think I'm more dangerous solo because I have to do more to carry a battle or find a way to win. 

 

    I agree that in general flights are helpful for players and that flights are an important part of the game. If anyone thinks that being flighted or my being in OWSS is the main driver of my stats, I think you are mistaken. The driving force that makes me the player I am would continue without ever being flighted or ever being in a clan. If anything being flighted or being in a clan tempers me in a good way, and has a positive influence on me. 

 

    You might be trying to make a point but I might be a poor example to make that point with. Just my sentiments.

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

Strangely, I've seen quite a few flights that chose the 2 tier selection...

 

 

 

 

Just a small sample size.

 

But it's allowed in the game.

 

Stats don't mean much, especially since 2.x with BOTS (not that 1.x with BOTS should be excluded, or the vertical exploits, 1000's of games at tier 3 and below, among others) although they can be used as a "yard stick" of sorts.  But EVERYTHING should be viewed with skepticism and a grain of salt.  As they say, Pat Stad away!

 


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Perco_lator #84 Posted 17 April 2019 - 12:14 AM

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View PostBubba_Zanetti, on 16 April 2019 - 05:57 PM, said:

 

Strangely, I've seen quite a few flights that chose the 2 tier selection...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just a small sample size.

 

But it's allowed in the game.

 

Stats don't mean much, especially since 2.x with BOTS (not that 1.x with BOTS should be excluded, or the vertical exploits, 1000's of games at tier 3 and below, among others) although they can be used as a "yard stick" of sorts.  But EVERYTHING should be viewed with skepticism and a grain of salt.  As they say, Pat Stad away!

 

 

Stet peddlers LOL

 



Innokenty #85 Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:23 AM

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Seeing OWSS being mentioned makes me think that as an OWSS member I should comment. Here's my observations for what they are worth:

 

1) Humans are the primary determining factor in a win or loss. RNG plays a bigger role, at least it seems to me, at the higher tiers where bots are often better skilled than many human players.

 

2) Many humans make very bad mistakes which contribute to their loss (examples: crashing your plane by accident, going for the wrong base target, always going for the easy base target, etc.)

 

3) As in number 2 above, there are so many things I could list that are mistakes it would fill up a page. I see players make these mistakes and if I am flying alone without a clan mate I often lose because my human team mates simply make bad mistakes that I can't "fix" or overcome for them in attempting to "carry the team" for the win. Occasionally I can carry the team, but mostly at tier VI and below. The bots at higher tiers are often superior to most human players.

 

4) If your plane is not upgraded with at least stock or slightly better equipment, you start your match at a significant disadvantage. Upgrade your planes.

 

5) In game pilot (crew) skills are important because they balance out and overcome some of the painful deficiencies that some aircraft have even when upgraded. Invest in your crew skills.

 

6) Remember that you are flying in an arcade game that takes all the skill out of having to know how to use instruments to fly -- so use that to your advantage. I see way too many human players (usually my opposition) forgetting that they can easily do a barrel roll, an Immelman or other in-flight maneuver that actually works in this game. They make wide turns that allow me to work my plane inside them, or they try to outclimb when they should spiral spin down and bank left or right to avoid me on their tail, and other such tactics. Most players simply use a big U shaped turn when they pass me and its quite easy to reposition my aircraft to attack them by taking advantage of their lack of maneuvering.

 

7) Know your aircraft. Too many novice players attempt head-on attacks repeatedly against heavy fighters when I am flying. That is suicide. Roll under me and swing up on my tail instead of ramming or attempting to out gun my heavy fighter.

 

8) Remember not all planes are meant to be flown at high altitudes. Many of the planes in the game are meant to be flown at mid-altitudes where they perform best.

 

I was 64% WR in the pre-2.0 game mode, and am now 70.21% in the 2.0 game mode. The game is not so much about dog-fighting anymore but more focused on tactics and smart decision making to carry a win.


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CorvusCorvax #86 Posted 18 April 2019 - 04:07 PM

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View PostInnokenty, on 18 April 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

Seeing OWSS being mentioned makes me think that as an OWSS member I should comment.

 

2) Many humans make very bad mistakes which contribute to their loss (examples: crashing your plane by accident, going for the wrong base target, always going for the easy base target, etc.)

 

3) As in number 2 above, there are so many things I could list that are mistakes it would fill up a page. I see players make these mistakes and if I am flying alone without a clan mate I often lose because my human team mates simply make bad mistakes that I can't "fix" or overcome for them in attempting to "carry the team" for the win. Occasionally I can carry the team, but mostly at tier VI and below. The bots at higher tiers are often superior to most human players.

 

4) If your plane is not upgraded with at least stock or slightly better equipment, you start your match at a significant disadvantage. Upgrade your planes.

 

 

You have correctly gotten the gist of what I said in my first post.  The human factor really makes all the difference.  Sometimes, you really can't make up for the decisions your fellow humans make.  And sometimes, your decisions are not good, but the guys on the other team do worse.

 

I bring up OWSS not as a call-out, but because I have flown with and against OWSS a lot.  1 v. 1, an OWSS can be formidable.  Flighted 2 v. 1?  Well, at least flying is fun, right?  :P

 

One of the decisions that I make, in particular, that doesn't serve me well, is to not carefully examine the opposition team.  You, for example, have a handle that closely resembles a bot handle.  Since the clan tag is not displayed on the team screen, and I don't run the label mod, I sometimes don't see that you are playing on the other team, until AFTER I engage.  And since you can engage a bot, even from a unfavorable position, and still win, it's a mistake that has not served me well often enough.  Point is, knowing your opposition is key to being able to attack from a favorable standing.



legoboy0401 #87 Posted 18 April 2019 - 04:57 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 April 2019 - 08:07 AM, said:

 

You have correctly gotten the gist of what I said in my first post.  The human factor really makes all the difference.  Sometimes, you really can't make up for the decisions your fellow humans make.  And sometimes, your decisions are not good, but the guys on the other team do worse.

 

I bring up OWSS not as a call-out, but because I have flown with and against OWSS a lot.  1 v. 1, an OWSS can be formidable.  Flighted 2 v. 1?  Well, at least flying is fun, right?  :P

 

One of the decisions that I make, in particular, that doesn't serve me well, is to not carefully examine the opposition team.  You, for example, have a handle that closely resembles a bot handle.  Since the clan tag is not displayed on the team screen, and I don't run the label mod, I sometimes don't see that you are playing on the other team, until AFTER I engage.  And since you can engage a bot, even from a unfavorable position, and still win, it's a mistake that has not served me well often enough.  Point is, knowing your opposition is key to being able to attack from a favorable standing.

 

You know, though that doesn't explain the quite frankly ridiculous amount of bottom tiering my Beaufighter sees, I think I understand my horrible WR in my Beaufighter more clearly now. What's happening is:

 

First, though we don't exactly understand why, me being bottom tier in my Beaufighter is almost a given.

 

Second, because I am bottom tier, I need to work both smarter and harder and really push my plane to the limit, which with the stock engines is kind of difficult, but I can be blamed for not trying very hard.

 

Third, usually in these battles, the enemy team is composed of: 1, good players; and 2; said good players are in top-tier planes at least, sometimes even specialist.

 

Fourth, because of the enemy team having good players in top-tier and/or well-equipped planes, there's very little margin for error for the allied team. If the team and/or any individual player on it screws up more than 2-3 times, we will lose, 95% of the time.

 

Fifth, take a guess as to what happens. Did you say both me and my team screw up a lot? If you did, give yourself a pat on the back because that is what is happening here.

 

I'm not "magically getting placed on losing teams" I'm simply getting on mediocre, very fallible teams and I myself am just too mediocre and fallible myself to carry them. Hence, quite a lot of losses. The same scenario, with the same results, playing over and over. Why do I even expect different results? I'm not doing anything that would get me different results. I must be going insane.


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CorvusCorvax #88 Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:15 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 April 2019 - 04:57 PM, cried like a baby:

 

[tears of rage]

 

You seem to have forgotten which topic you're in.  This isn't one where you are whining about the matchmaker - you already made that one.  And it isn't the one where you whine about being bottom tier in your Beaufighter, you already made one of those, too.  This topic is about bots, and how the behavior of the bots is not why you lose.

 

You don't need to inject your whining about the matchmaker into every topic.  

 

If the game isn't fun, stop playing.  



legoboy0401 #89 Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:26 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 April 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

 

You seem to have forgotten which topic you're in.  This isn't one where you are whining about the matchmaker - you already made that one.  And it isn't the one where you whine about being bottom tier in your Beaufighter, you already made one of those, too.  This topic is about bots, and how the behavior of the bots is not why you lose.

 

You don't need to inject your whining about the matchmaker into every topic.  

 

If the game isn't fun, stop playing.  

 

Yeah. I know. The point is, bots are not at all why I'm losing so many Beaufighter battles, it's entirely the human element.

 

I was, and still am, trying to agree with you.

 

But I can't, or rather, you can't grasp the idea of me agreeing with you, because you think I'm too much of an airhead to ever agree with anything you say.

 

I disagree with you, you characterize me as a whiny, ragey crybaby.

 

I agree with you, you ALSO characterize me as a whiny, ragey crybaby.

 

Wow, if that's not true elitism and proof that you've already made a picture of exactly who I am in your mind and even if I change, you dismiss me as faking it because "of course your mental image simply MUST be true", I don't know what is.

 

What a jerk.

 

From now on, I will always be contrarian to anything you say, regardless of whether I actually agree with it or not, because you will always treat me by default as if I disagree with you.


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


Prenzlau #90 Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:43 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 April 2019 - 01:26 PM, said:

 

Yeah. I know. The point is, bots are not at all why I'm losing so many Beaufighter battles, it's entirely the human element.

 

I was, and still am, trying to agree with you.

 

But I can't, or rather, you can't grasp the idea of me agreeing with you, because you think I'm too much of an airhead to ever agree with anything you say.

 

I disagree with you, you characterize me as a whiny, ragey crybaby.

 

I agree with you, you ALSO characterize me as a whiny, ragey crybaby.

 

Wow, if that's not true elitism and proof that you've already made a picture of exactly who I am in your mind and even if I change, you dismiss me as faking it because "of course your mental image simply MUST be true", I don't know what is.

 

What a jerk.

 

From now on, I will always be contrarian to anything you say, regardless of whether I actually agree with it or not, because you will always treat me by default as if I disagree with you.

 

    Your seeking approval even if your not fully conscious of it. What you describe as "elitism" is the maturity necessary to "be your own man". The fault isn't with Corvus, and it isn't with any mental image you think he has of you. Corvus has the the psychological advantage and you have no answers. Your just flailing around. 

 

    Take some time and just do some thinking. Maybe take a small break from this forum. If I was in your corner (as your manager) I would have tossed the white towel a while ago. You have some things going for ya but even if you don't want to hear this, you're in over your head right now. Take a step back and take some time. It is the right thing to do.

 

    Cheers!

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


legoboy0401 #91 Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:52 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 April 2019 - 11:47 AM, said:

 

"Well, if I'm gonna be stupid, I might as well go full [edited]."

 

LOL, that fits.

 

If you are always going to treat me as if I disagree with you even when I don't, might as well always disagree with you, because it's not like you'd treat me any differently if I did agree with you.

 

Logic.


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


legoboy0401 #92 Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:55 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 18 April 2019 - 11:43 AM, said:

 

    Your seeking approval even if your not fully conscious of it. What you describe as "elitism" is the maturity necessary to "be your own man". The fault isn't with Corvus, and it isn't with any mental image you think he has of you. Corvus has the the psychological advantage and you have no answers. Your just flailing around. 

 

    Take some time and just do some thinking. Maybe take a small break from this forum. If I was in your corner (as your manager) I would have tossed the white towel a while ago. You have some things going for ya but even if you don't want to hear this, you're in over your head right now. Take a step back and take some time. It is the right thing to do.

 

    Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

I'm doing something subconsciously, even if I'm not. I'm doing something, even if I am in fact NOT actually doing that same something.

 

Are you sure you aren't the ghost of Freud?


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


CorvusCorvax #93 Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:59 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 18 April 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

 

    Your seeking approval even if your not fully conscious of it. What you describe as "elitism" is the maturity necessary to "be your own man". The fault isn't with Corvus, and it isn't with any mental image you think he has of you. Corvus has the the psychological advantage and you have no answers. Your just flailing around. 

 

    Take some time and just do some thinking. Maybe take a small break from this forum. If I was in your corner (as your manager) I would have tossed the white towel a while ago. You have some things going for ya but even if you don't want to hear this, you're in over your head right now. Take a step back and take some time. It is the right thing to do.

 

    Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

Being overmatched isn't his only problem here.  But be that as it may, I think that if he just stops posting so dang much, and instead just plays the game, he'll get his planes and his skill where they need to be.  None of us who fly in the higher tiers got there merely because we had fatter wallets.  I will admit to buying planes I didn't want to grind, but I could have ground them out if I wanted to spend the time doing it.  I don't have half a million free XP because I found it lying in a parking lot somewhere.  I don't have T10 tech tree planes because somehow I bought enough XP to get past the middle tiers.

 

At best, I am a casual player.  I have, what, something less than 4000 total WoWP battles.  I am also fairly catholic in my play types - I fly all five types of planes.  I prefer German heavy fighters, and then BnZ energy fighters.  But I still dig the TnB and bombers and GAA, and some ridiculous MRFs...

 

You can learn something about all these planes, just by playing.  Top tier, bottom tier, many humans, no other humans - it's all about playing.  Complaining about the bots or the matchmaker or the RNGeezus or your stupid potato team mates does nothing.  It teaches you nothing, and only consumes electrons.  

 

Time better spent watching video from the folks who can, or even better, playing and figuring out how to maximize your advantage on the other guy.



legoboy0401 #94 Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:59 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 18 April 2019 - 11:43 AM, said:

 

    Your seeking approval even if your not fully conscious of it. What you describe as "elitism" is the maturity necessary to "be your own man". The fault isn't with Corvus, and it isn't with any mental image you think he has of you. Corvus has the the psychological advantage and you have no answers. Your just flailing around. 

 

    Take some time and just do some thinking. Maybe take a small break from this forum. If I was in your corner (as your manager) I would have tossed the white towel a while ago. You have some things going for ya but even if you don't want to hear this, you're in over your head right now. Take a step back and take some time. It is the right thing to do.

 

    Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

"Psychological advantage." LOL, you mean because he's so arrogant and haughty that he thinks that he can never be wrong and everyone else can never be right, no matter what the facts say?

 

Um, right. That's NOT a good thing, and NOT a thing you want to go around bragging about. In fact, I would say it's a major weakness of character.


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


legoboy0401 #95 Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:11 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 April 2019 - 11:59 AM, said:

 

Being overmatched isn't his only problem here.  But be that as it may, I think that if he just stops posting so dang much, and instead just plays the game, he'll get his planes and his skill where they need to be.  None of us who fly in the higher tiers got there merely because we had fatter wallets.  I will admit to buying planes I didn't want to grind, but I could have ground them out if I wanted to spend the time doing it.  I don't have half a million free XP because I found it lying in a parking lot somewhere.  I don't have T10 tech tree planes because somehow I bought enough XP to get past the middle tiers.

 

At best, I am a casual player.  I have, what, something less than 4000 total WoWP battles.  I am also fairly catholic in my play types - I fly all five types of planes.  I prefer German heavy fighters, and then BnZ energy fighters.  But I still dig the TnB and bombers and GAA, and some ridiculous MRFs...

 

You can learn something about all these planes, just by playing.  Top tier, bottom tier, many humans, no other humans - it's all about playing.  Complaining about the bots or the matchmaker or the RNGeezus or your stupid potato team mates does nothing.  It teaches you nothing, and only consumes electrons.  

 

Time better spent watching video from the folks who can, or even better, playing and figuring out how to maximize your advantage on the other guy.

 

As usual, you are correct. But for me, life gets in the way of playing lots and lots. I did, for example, play 3 more battles than my average last night, but today, I probably won't get to play at all because I have to go to town today(multiple things that need to be done there) and then go a decent way PAST town(town itself is 45 minutes away), to pick up my new monitor that will eventually be part of my new gaming setup.


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


Prenzlau #96 Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:20 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 April 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

 

Being overmatched isn't his only problem here.  But be that as it may, I think that if he just stops posting so dang much, and instead just plays the game, he'll get his planes and his skill where they need to be.  None of us who fly in the higher tiers got there merely because we had fatter wallets.  I will admit to buying planes I didn't want to grind, but I could have ground them out if I wanted to spend the time doing it.  I don't have half a million free XP because I found it lying in a parking lot somewhere.  I don't have T10 tech tree planes because somehow I bought enough XP to get past the middle tiers.

 

At best, I am a casual player.  I have, what, something less than 4000 total WoWP battles.  I am also fairly catholic in my play types - I fly all five types of planes.  I prefer German heavy fighters, and then BnZ energy fighters.  But I still dig the TnB and bombers and GAA, and some ridiculous MRFs...

 

You can learn something about all these planes, just by playing.  Top tier, bottom tier, many humans, no other humans - it's all about playing.  Complaining about the bots or the matchmaker or the RNGeezus or your stupid potato team mates does nothing.  It teaches you nothing, and only consumes electrons.  

 

Time better spent watching video from the folks who can, or even better, playing and figuring out how to maximize your advantage on the other guy.

 

If you think sparring with him is a good thing and helps you in some way, well I guess that is your business.

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


Prenzlau #97 Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:29 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 April 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

 

"Psychological advantage." LOL, you mean because he's so arrogant and haughty that he thinks that he can never be wrong and everyone else can never be right, no matter what the facts say?

 

Um, right. That's NOT a good thing, and NOT a thing you want to go around bragging about. In fact, I would say it's a major weakness of character.

 

Like I said, your flailing around without any answers, just a lot of drama.

 

It's not about Corvus, it's about you, and that is what your missing. He can push your buttons like a puppet and your not the wiser to any of it. 

 

Again, best you stop and take a break, it would be a wise thing to do for yourself.

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

 


 

 

 

 


CorvusCorvax #98 Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:38 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 April 2019 - 07:55 PM, said:

 

I'm doing something subconsciously

"Subconsciously" has a meaning.  You should look it up.



White_Widow18 #99 Posted 18 April 2019 - 09:05 PM

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I argue that Corvus is angry at Legoboy because he sees himself in Legoboy.

He posts opinion posts as facts in an attempt to get validation from others (I'm looking squarely at this thread as an example), is overly oppositional/incapable of agreeing to disagree if people hold an opinion that differs from his, and tries to find wisdom from reading stat lines. Oh.. and like Legoboy.. he has more Forum posts than games played.

Basically, most of what Corvus' beefs seem to be.. are the points that I would consider he and Legoboy alike.

It's been quite an interesting little tableau to watch.

I'm certain they'll likely both disagree with this, but this is my outlook.

It's all non-productive and they agree on more than they disagree. I wish they'd both bury the hatchet and move on, because it's silly. We're all here to play the same game and enjoy it and we all have different opinions of how to play it and what any given facet of the game means (or IF it has meaning).

------------------------------------------------
 

View PostPrenzlau, on 18 April 2019 - 02:29 PM, said:

 

Like I said, your flailing around without any answers, just a lot of drama.

 

It's not about Corvus, it's about you, and that is what your missing. He can push your buttons like a puppet and your not the wiser to any of it. 

 

Again, best you stop and take a break, it would be a wise thing to do for yourself.

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

 

 

One could argue it is Corvus who is missing something. What sort of supposedly grown and successful Man so constantly goes out of his way to rage at and bully someone younger is a question I know -many- would ask. It could also be argued that it is Legoboy that knows how to push Corvus' buttons.. since Corvus seems utterly incapable of just -not responding- to something Legoboy posts. Even Legoboy's attempts to be nice push Corvus' buttons.. so that would definitely seem like someone missing something.

I guess what I'm saying is... I don't disagree with you necessarily, I just have this other viewpoint about it over here as well.
*shrug*

-----------

You know what my ultimate response to a thread like this has to be?

"Welcome to World of Warplanes, where the rules are made up and the points don't really matter!"

Have your differences of opinion, get over them, play the game, and enjoy what you can of it.

Edited to add: Hornet nest kicking is a past-time for me. 

Edited by White_Widow18, 18 April 2019 - 09:13 PM.


Perco_lator #100 Posted 18 April 2019 - 09:37 PM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 18 April 2019 - 05:05 PM, said:

 
 Corvus seems utterly incapable of just -not responding- to something Legoboy posts.
 





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