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It's not the bots, it's your decisions that make or break a game.


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LeastWeasel #61 Posted 16 April 2019 - 04:24 PM

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This is one of the great existential debates underpinning WoWp :p

Echoing a few others here, how you approach this quandry is going to have a direct correlation to your fun/rage ratios...

You might not always be able to make a difference...

But always fly as if you could.

And if you’re destined to lose, go down in glory. The next game is minutes away.

Prenzlau #62 Posted 16 April 2019 - 04:35 PM

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View PostLeastWeasel, on 16 April 2019 - 10:24 AM, said:

This is one of the great existential debates underpinning WoWp :p

Echoing a few others here, how you approach this quandry is going to have a direct correlation to your fun/rage ratios...

You might not always be able to make a difference...

But always fly as if you could.

And if you’re destined to lose, go down in glory. The next game is minutes away.

 

    That's the spirit! 

 

    You see LeastWeasel is going to fight, win or lose, he is going to bring it. I'm not going to remember a battle against LeastWeasel because of what the bots did, I'm going to remember it because maybe he beat me up, maybe he rolled my team, or maybe I steam rolled him, but it was a fight, battle of wills, battle of skill. I don't play this game to fight (for example and I'm making this up) Mr. Soggy Milktoast, 42% win rate, 59 battles. Beating that type of player matters not to me, and it means nothing! Winning a battle against worthy opponents, that is different and I cannot speak for anyone else, but that is the fun and the challenge of the game. This game has lost so many quality and wonderful players, and from the perspective of an active player who only wants to compete, it is a damn shame. To be fair, we all have to find our own purpose and walk our own path, so I don't hold it against players who have quit or seldom play. I think though, it is a shame. A shame that this game cannot be more inviting to bring in more quality players, not just bunches of noobs. 

 

    I respect LeastWeasel, all the way to the point where I utterly destroy him in battle. :honoring:

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau


Edited by Prenzlau, 16 April 2019 - 04:38 PM.

 

 

 

 


White_Widow18 #63 Posted 16 April 2019 - 04:52 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 16 April 2019 - 06:58 AM, said:

I just deleted the rest after this, unread.

 

Two things wrong here, because you continue to make this strawman argument.  I have nowhere made these absolute statements (unless you take individual sentences out of context.)  There may be bugs, but without evidence it's a bug, that's just an excuse for not grasping the programming.  Weird behavior isn't evidence of a bug - but it might be evidence of incomplete programming.  Especially if the weird behavior is repeatable.

 

And win rate isn't perfect, and nowhere have I claimed it is.  But it IS a numerical indicator.  Not anecdotal. 

 

It is anecdotal because you can't define all the factors that go into an individual win-rate, you'd have to examine every single game ever played and check every single variable that happened during each game. You cannot do that.. Numbers can be an anecdotal thing too ;) You also -have- claimed win-rate as some sort of primary indicator and argument that you are right, as much as you've claimed otherwise. That's fine, I'm simply stating again that I do not agree with the majority of your arguments that support your position. You're in a parallel thought process about the game to me, but it's a big enough gap that there's not a huge lot of same. That's fine.

So this is the point where I say we agree to disagree, because honestly... not worth the energy to keep arguing here with someone I like :) 
 

Edited by White_Widow18, 16 April 2019 - 05:35 PM.


Zinro #64 Posted 16 April 2019 - 04:56 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 16 April 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

 

My win rate is 73.96%

 

 

How much of that is solo and how much is flighted?

 



Bubba_Zanetti #65 Posted 16 April 2019 - 05:53 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 16 April 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

 

How much of that is solo and how much is flighted?

 

 

Is that api still available?  What’s that dev link that you could search and show the data...they crippled that big time with 2.0.  Same reasons population isn’t shared.

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Prenzlau #66 Posted 16 April 2019 - 06:06 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 16 April 2019 - 10:56 AM, said:

 

How much of that is solo and how much is flighted?

 

 

    If you are insinuating that I am where I am at because of being flighted you are very much wrong. Do I win a lot while being flighted, yes, of course. I do however win just as much when not being flighted, so in my case it really does not matter. The players who know me and have flown against me know that I'm just as formidable solo as I am in any flight. So it really does not matter. I fly more solo, and I wish I had the stats, I really do. 

 

    The players who "get it" understand, and they would not try to undermine what they know and believe, what they have seen repeatedly with their own eyes. So it does not matter that much to me as to whether I am flighted or not, the same mandates I have still are there. Some people might think I'm more dangerous solo because I have to do more to carry a battle or find a way to win. 

 

    I agree that in general flights are helpful for players and that flights are an important part of the game. If anyone thinks that being flighted or my being in OWSS is the main driver of my stats, I think you are mistaken. The driving force that makes me the player I am would continue without ever being flighted or ever being in a clan. If anything being flighted or being in a clan tempers me in a good way, and has a positive influence on me. 

 

    You might be trying to make a point but I might be a poor example to make that point with. Just my sentiments.

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


Captain_Underpants53 #67 Posted 16 April 2019 - 06:10 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 16 April 2019 - 01:06 PM, said:

 

    If you are insinuating that I am where I am at because of being flighted you are very much wrong. Do I win a lot while being flighted, yes, of course. I do however win just as much when not being flighted, so in my case it really does not matter. The players who know me and have flown against me know that I'm just as formidable solo as I am in any flight. So it really does not matter. I fly more solo, and I wish I had the stats, I really do. 

 

    The players who "get it" understand, and they would not try to undermine what they know and believe, what they have seen repeatedly with their own eyes. So it does not matter that much to me as to whether I am flighted or not, the same mandates I have still are there. Some people might think I'm more dangerous solo because I have to do more to carry a battle or find a way to win. 

 

    I agree that in general flights are helpful for players and that flights are an important part of the game. If anyone thinks that being flighted or my being in OWSS is the main driver of my stats, I think you are mistaken. The driving force that makes me the player I am would continue without ever being flighted or ever being in a clan. If anything being flighted or being in a clan tempers me in a good way, and has a positive influence on me. 

 

    You might be trying to make a point but I might be a poor example to make that point with. Just my sentiments.

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

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Prenzlau #68 Posted 16 April 2019 - 06:28 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 16 April 2019 - 12:10 PM, said:

 

Back to bragging?  Oh wait,............you never quit, did you?

 

    It's not really bragging if someone can actually do it, is it now.

 

    If you have not either rage quit this game or have been on the brink, then this game is bigger than you are. I have mandates and goals, that must be accomplished. So the game is more irrelevant to me these days, nothing more than the stage. The game won't stop me from accomplishing my goals. 

 

    To my knowledge I have never quit a battle and left my team to their own ends. 

 

Anymore questions Captain?

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


CorvusCorvax #69 Posted 16 April 2019 - 06:50 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 16 April 2019 - 04:56 PM, said:

 

How much of that is solo and how much is flighted?

 

 

Hmmm, the human CHOICE to augment a win ratio, right?  As in, a choice to not only be better than the bots, but also influence your chances against other human opponents.

 

Thank you for helping me out!



CorvusCorvax #70 Posted 16 April 2019 - 06:59 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 16 April 2019 - 04:35 PM, said:

You see LeastWeasel is going to fight, win or lose, he is going to bring it. I'm not going to remember a battle against LeastWeasel because of what the bots did, I'm going to remember it because maybe he beat me up, maybe he rolled my team, or maybe I steam rolled him, but it was a fight, battle of wills, battle of skill. 

 

 

That's really the thing here.  If you think bots are the reason you win or lose, you're wrong.  The matchmaker might bend you over, sure.  I have been downtiered so often in my FW-190D that I just expect it now.  (Reminder:  you and I need to fly such that you are T6, so that I can play my Dora top-tier!)

 

But the humans make the battle what it is. A while ago, I fired up my P.1101, and entered a battle.  All bots, except me.  It was a lackluster battle for me, I was just going through the motions.  I enjoyed the progress toward specialist, but only that.  Without human opponents, the battle was boring.  Of course Blue won - I'm no potato.  But still.

 

The choice to flight up is the very first good choice.  Then, once you get into battle, the choice to stick together, or help bots do their thing, so that they can then do other things - that overcomes almost all other issues (other than matchmaker - pre-nerf Pancake killing squads excluded.)



Zinro #71 Posted 16 April 2019 - 07:02 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 16 April 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

 

Hmmm, the human CHOICE to augment a win ratio, right?  As in, a choice to not only be better than the bots, but also influence your chances against other human opponents.

 

Thank you for helping me out!

 

Except for those 1 vs 1 games where your only human opponent is afk and you yourself have a decent game but still end up losing.

CorvusCorvax #72 Posted 16 April 2019 - 07:15 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 16 April 2019 - 07:02 PM, said:

 

Except for those 1 vs 1 games where your only human opponent is afk and you yourself have a decent game but still end up losing.

 

What?  If you are up a player, and you still lose against an all-bot team, that's all on you.

 

But to be clear, I was talking about the pre-battle choice to flight up.



Zinro #73 Posted 16 April 2019 - 07:24 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 16 April 2019 - 01:15 PM, said:

 

What?  If you are up a player, and you still lose against an all-bot team, that's all on you.

 

But to be clear, I was talking about the pre-battle choice to flight up.

 

You can't have a discussion with another person that won't listen.  Don't look at it as to why I lost, why did the afk person win?  I guess the right choice in his case was to go afk.  My choices of capturing zones and shooting planes down was the wrong choice.  I understand your argument, but it is not 100% accurate.

Captain_Underpants53 #74 Posted 16 April 2019 - 07:33 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 16 April 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

 

    It's not really bragging if someone can actually do it, is it now.

 

    If you have not either rage quit this game or have been on the brink, then this game is bigger than you are. I have mandates and goals, that must be accomplished. So the game is more irrelevant to me these days, nothing more than the stage. The game won't stop me from accomplishing my goals. 

 

    To my knowledge I have never quit a battle and left my team to their own ends. 

 

Anymore questions Captain?

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

You like cliches, do you?  Even bogus ones?  Bragging is bragging and you are a Master Braggart (MB).
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CorvusCorvax #75 Posted 16 April 2019 - 07:39 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 16 April 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

 

You can't have a discussion with another person that won't listen.  Don't look at it as to why I lost, why did the afk person win?  I guess the right choice in his case was to go afk.  My choices of capturing zones and shooting planes down was the wrong choice.  I understand your argument, but it is not 100% accurate.

 

It's all about where and when, not necessarily what.  Knowing where and when is the goal, and has been since 2.0 dropped.  Just flying around and doing stuff isn't good enough.

 

Again, and I said it twice before, there are times when stuff converges to deal you a bad hand.  It happens.  But the urge to immediately blame the bots is what I am speaking against, not the odd time when all the breaks just don't go your way.

 

So, in this battle you speak of, you're claiming you made zero mistakes?  The entire battle was perfect?  Or, in retrospect, would one or more different choices maybe turned it around?


Edited by CorvusCorvax, 16 April 2019 - 07:40 PM.


Prenzlau #76 Posted 16 April 2019 - 07:48 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 16 April 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

You like cliches, do you?  Even bogus ones?  Bragging is bragging and you are a Master Braggart (MB).

 

    Your only relevance is that I recognize you and return your messages, so maybe a thank you is in order.

 

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Zinro #77 Posted 16 April 2019 - 07:51 PM

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Again, you are looking at it from my side.  I am asking you what the afk person did that caused his team to win?

 

I was in a tier 7 or 8 German GA, capturing sectors and killing the enemy GA when I ran across them.  Not saying I did everything perfect but the afk person did not make any choices to on his side to help his team, other than maybe getting my bots to chase him across the map.  It almost sounds as if you are saying if we make zero mistakes in a match we should be able to achieve a 100% win rate.  I counter that statement with Prenzlau himself, who loses about 26% of the time and he pretty much never makes a mistake.



White_Widow18 #78 Posted 16 April 2019 - 08:25 PM

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I've found a delicious and dark amusement from this thread.

Reading stats to find wisdom and then arguing with people who have higher win-rates and/or more games flown in 2.xx... who else does that sound like?

It would seem that this thread has reached a point of being unproductive and it seems to be quickly devolving toward "UH HUH!" "NUH UH!". The topic title on through has been quite inflammatory and caused much strife. Rather like a post that Prenzlau made a while back, I can honestly say most of this thread should have been quite predictable to most of us.

Prenzlau #79 Posted 16 April 2019 - 08:57 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 16 April 2019 - 01:51 PM, said:

 I counter that statement with Prenzlau himself, who loses about 26% of the time and he pretty much never makes a mistake.

 

Actually the 26% loses IS because I make mistakes. Just to clarify.

 

Wow, that's thick even for me....

 

    Seriously... Some battles are unwinnable. In theory every battle is winnable, even if the probability is very small, but for the sake of argument, some battles have the appearance of being unwinnable, and almost always it plays out that way. If in any battle I get "superiority" against my team, that is catastrophic, and it means the other team is taking sectors faster than I can take them and keep any of them. In theory if I'm consistent in my bombing methods and technique then there is a threshold an opposing team has to overcome to win any battle against me, the 73.96% win rate is deceiving because that includes all planes. If you would just include bombers and no other planes, my win rate would be closer to 80-85% or possibly a little higher. Remember 18 months ago my win rate was 46%, so to raise my win rate to 73.96% with more than 8,000 battles, I would have to have consistently always play (averaged) above my actual rate, with battles in other planes taken into account. 

 

    The tactical aspect of this game is NOT infallible. The skill aspect of this game is NOT infallible. Some of my huge statistical battles are loses, and that is because the other team was pushing me closer to my full potential, and that might be capturing 6 or 7 sectors (or more) and 30+ ground targets and still that effort cannot save my team from the loss. So any player who plays to a higher potential, often can have career battles stat wise, and still suffer the loss. Does this reflect on the skill or tactical ability of the player? I think not. Some battles simply cannot be won, and I say that in hindsight. Every battle I enter into I believe I can win until I realize I cannot and that is usually when it is obvious. In the end the path to victory is controlling sectors and gaining more points, taking and holding sectors that have more value than others. Defensive play can win battles, if the player is willing, and that is a valid tactical strategy. When I have to play defense in my bomber by trying to bomb enemy GA's and bombers and harassing and baiting planes, then the battle is probably already lost, yet it is always highly situational. Sometimes holding the mine for just one more bump can win a battle or refusing to lose the missile base. Players actually should not speak of winning or losing unless they want the responsibility of actually being a tactical player. Every battle I fly there is a tactical plan and goals to win. Most teams do not communicate enough to be highly tactically effective, you just get lucky when you have one or more players who know what to do. 

 

    Battles I have tried to coordinate from my bomber have been more effective, IF other human players will listen and buy into the idea of tactical coordination. I usually will say something like, "please hold the mine", "please take that rocket base", and hope someone will be helpful. Sometimes other players take offense to such suggestions. There is always an over tactical situation on every map, and there are certain necessary requirements to have the best chance to win the battle. Because players might be grinding missions and have their own goals or motives, sometimes not every player is on board with winning the battle, or at least they want to win but also want to accomplish their goals. So many factors and so many things that go right or wrong. A victory should be celebrated, always, because it is not always as easy. 

 

    One thing that I am that has never changed, is that I am a student of the game and willing to learn. There is a difference between playing this game and winning battles. When you start to feel like your contribution was enough to alter or win some battles, you're on your way. Winning a battle does not mean you have to be an ace and rack up tons of medals, but what it does mean is that you have an awareness for the situation of the battle and that you see what your team needs to win. You act and react to the flow of the battle, and make winning decisions for your team. Of course that said, players have their own goals, missions and motives that can and will interfere with the idea of better coordinated winning. 

 

    I think what WG should do is create missions that force players to cooperate as a team and then they get rewarded as a team, beyond personal rewards. Having player goals and missions for tokens or plane grinding, that are counter productive to winning in that they force player into bad tactical paths is bad for the game. I mean why not have total chaos in every battle? Fighter, "Hey bomber, what are you doing over there?" Bomber, "I'm bombing the airfield". Fighter, "But we need to take the rocket base or we will lose" Bomber, "I need to capture airfields for my mission". That happens all the time. 

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


Prenzlau #80 Posted 16 April 2019 - 08:59 PM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 16 April 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

 Rather like a post that Prenzlau made a while back,

 

     I do have a certain "magnetism", a personality that is hard to resist.

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

 

 


 

 

 

 





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