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Balance and Skill Versus the MM and Labels

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Prenzlau #21 Posted 27 March 2019 - 04:32 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 27 March 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

 

I am saying that if you remove the skill of a player and just take into account the planes ability, each plane class should have an equal ability to effect the outcome of a match in their own way.  If one class of plane can offer a skilled player more opportunity in a match than another class, that plane is over powered.  For example, two players on opposite teams, one flying a bomber and one flying a GA, if both players fly those planes at maximum effectiveness, they should cancel out each others performance, if that is not the case, the plane that offers one player more effect on the outcome either needs a nerf or the other plane needs a buff.  You stated in your original message about averages which I interpreted was weighted with player skill, which I agree with, and I just wanted to add that any class of plane should not be able to be skillfully played better than another class. 

 

    I'm having some trouble agreeing with you on the points you are trying to make. You cannot just remove the skill of the player, whether that enhances or detracts, because players play this game. Sometimes good players have bad games, sometimes poor players step up and have great games. So many variables. That is why I have always said that once a battle starts, it has an outcome and life of it's own. The stage maybe set, but the sequence or chain of events and actions will play out and everything will contribute to the final result. 

 

"and I just wanted to add that any class of plane should not be able to be skillfully played better than another class."

 

    You cannot eliminate the skill or proficiency of the player. Not every player is equal, and never will be. In any video game that is PvP you will find good players and poor players, advantages and disadvantages. No two sports players are alike and equal. No two horses and jockeys are equal. That is why we predict odds and probabilities. Even though a player in any given plane might be favored, that does not automatically translate into a win. 

 

    I've been in battles in a bomber and have had excellent ground attack players, like Reitousair on the other team. Battles that like often due come down to other factors, assuming we each would do the best we can, so the rest of the team would be more of a determining factor. So I agree on that premise. In military history, it would be more of an aberration if two opposing armies or forces in a battle were evenly matched. That is usually not the case, one side or the other usually has more of an advantage. So your sentiments sound more ideal to my ears. 

 

    The players determine the outcome of battles, not the planes as much. A team of highly skilled players in stock planes will demolish lesser skilled players in specialized planes, hands down. So this game is much more about player skill and experience than any given plane attributes.

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau
 

 

 

    


 

 

 

 


nwlxn12 #22 Posted 27 March 2019 - 05:24 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 27 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

 

    The players determine the outcome of battles, not the planes as much. A team of highly skilled players in stock planes will demolish lesser skilled players in specialized planes, hands down. So this game is much more about player skill and experience than any given plane attributes.

    

 

A group of highly skilled players flying tier two specialized airplanes will be demolished by lesser skilled players flying stock tier tens.  I am exaggerating a point, but while skilled players play better, the planes need a balance as well.

 



Prenzlau #23 Posted 27 March 2019 - 05:44 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 27 March 2019 - 11:24 AM, said:

 

A group of highly skilled players flying tier two specialized airplanes will be demolished by lesser skilled players flying stock tier tens.  I am exaggerating a point, but while skilled players play better, the planes need a balance as well.

 

 

    Let me ask you this? Do you think planes no matter how specialized or buffed will ever eclipse the skill of the players who fly them? Do you think planes need to be enhanced to balance the skill of players so that "over powered" players as I call them, cannot dominate battles?

 

Am I in the ball park?

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


nwlxn12 #24 Posted 27 March 2019 - 06:02 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 27 March 2019 - 11:44 AM, said:

 

    Let me ask you this? Do you think planes no matter how specialized or buffed will ever eclipse the skill of the players who fly them? Do you think planes need to be enhanced to balance the skill of players so that "over powered" players as I call them, cannot dominate battles?

 

Am I in the ball park?

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

The answer to those questions is no.

 

Follow up question.  Removing all outside affects of the game and just going by plane ability, do you believe a bomber flown at max efficiency that flips 5 sectors (hypothetical number) is equal to a GA flown at max efficiency that flips 6 sectors?

 

 In that scenario, my point is that the GA is more powerful than the bomber.  Plane ability has the potential to allow a skilled pilot to play it better than what it should be in a game if it is out of balance.  Does the plane allow a skilled pilot to fly it better or does the pilot skill allow the plane to be flown better?  My argument is that both factors come into play when aiming for balance.



CorvusCorvax #25 Posted 27 March 2019 - 06:07 PM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 27 March 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

 

A group of highly skilled players flying tier two specialized airplanes will be demolished by lesser skilled players flying stock tier tens.  I am exaggerating a point, but while skilled players play better, the planes need a balance as well.

 

 

As originally delivered, I think the RB-17 was a T9 plane.  I think the nerfing turned it into more of a T8 plane, but the turret nerfs maybe went too far.  Currently, I think the RB-17 is a T7.5.

 

Before the nerfs, the Pancake was OP at T8, but not quite a T9 plane.  Now it is a normal T8 HF. 

 

This is the long way of me saying that some planes might get introduced at a tier for which they are not ideally matched.  For example, I think the Me-262 is not quite strong enough for T8 as a stock plane.  Specialized, it can hold its own, but only just.  (WG, I have some ideas.  Call me.)  There are those of us who can make a particular plane work at-tier.  But just because I have a lot of flying time in on my Do-335 and I do well in it doesn't mean that it needs a nerf, no matter how many bombers or GAA I shoot down with it.  I am good in it because I fly it a lot and I know exactly what it can, and cannot, do.  I put it in places and positions to maximize damage to the red team, and likewise keep it out of places and positions where it might be a detriment to the blue team.  So, the plane, from an outsider perspective, looks like it is OP.  Ever seen SpiritFoxMY run his FW-190 planes?  He knows all their strengths and weaknesses.  And plays them appropriately.  The skill of the pilot often makes the plane.  If I was flying a T6 Spitfire and came up against him in a T6 FW-190, I think I'd have a fight on my hands.  It's not a slam-dunk.  Even in my absolute favorite airplane, the T6 Me-410, I'd have to think really carefully about how to fight him.  With anyone else, I wouldn't even consider it anything more than a momentary diversion.

 

Pilot skill is much more meaningful at tier than equipment or enhancements.  Of course my Me-262 HGIII alone against a gaggle of P-12s is going to turn out badly for that gaggle, no matter how awesome each pilot is.  The only question would be if I could get away without taking even one point in damage.



Stygian_Alchemist #26 Posted 27 March 2019 - 07:01 PM

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Seems like someone wants planes that are equal in his mind. I appreciate wanting the game to cater to you and make you feel like a hero.. But even assuming identical planes some pilots are just better, you don't get to appreciate that because you assuage the feelings about losing by acting as if the numbers were so great you had no chance. I have a few planes that I'm like that. Even in stock configuration I'll beat your head in and feast on the wreckage of your plane and I don't care what it is you're flying or how specialist it is. 

 

I see a few planes that could use a buff, but the majority are balanced against each other with hard counters for their strengths. I would argue the FW 190 series could use a mild buff and so could the turrets on certain specific planes (not all of them. I know.. Not popular but some planes I think the turrets are actually balanced).

 

It feels like you want a game whose stats are balanced to give you a chance no matter the skill of the other player. Might I suggest something with bots you can set the difficulty of? The training room perhaps? 



losttwo #27 Posted 27 March 2019 - 07:29 PM

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A bomber and a GA should have equal outcome and cancel each other out.

I do not think so.

 

Historically various planes had various advantages over the other.

That is how wars are won. Not by numbers of men but superior firepower.



Azis_ #28 Posted 27 March 2019 - 07:52 PM

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It is the match ups of not only pilot skills, but classes and planes that give advantage or not in game and in history.

What would be the point if every battle ended in a tie and everyone got a ribbon?

 

Too many are so wrapped up in WR that they would prefer all to be even rather than actually competing. JMO


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Perco_lator #29 Posted 27 March 2019 - 08:01 PM

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There seems to be some people posting in this thread that just don't get that this is a video game & to be a successful one balancing is required.

A game is not balanced by taking just the performance of skilled players into account, it is done by averaging the overall performance of classes/vehicles vs others.

If a certain class or vehicle is found to be over/under performing vs others then balancing is needed. Skill has nothing to do with game balance.

 



Prenzlau #30 Posted 27 March 2019 - 08:08 PM

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View PostPerco_lator, on 27 March 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

There seems to be some people posting in this thread that just don't get that this is a video game & to be a successful one balancing is required.

A game is not balanced by taking just the performance of skilled players into account, it is done by averaging the overall performance of classes/vehicles vs others.

If a certain class or vehicle is found to be over/under performing vs others then balancing is needed. Skill has nothing to do with game balance.

 

 

 

"If a certain class or vehicle is found to be over/under performing vs others then balancing is needed."

 

So how exactly do you or anyone else think that this is determined? What is the criteria used to know what is, and what is not?

 

So sorry, I'm only pretending to be intelligent. :B

 

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Azis_ #31 Posted 27 March 2019 - 08:18 PM

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Another question I think should be asked?

Just what are people meaning by "Balanced"? Exact same performance across each class? Same HP, Guns, climb, turn.....?

 

Each have strength and weakness, which is how it should be.

I also think pilot "skill" should be removed from the conversation because lets be honest, it is a video game and it takes no "skill" being a pilot to play. Knowledge of the game and planes, I would agree with...alas it is much harder to type "knowledge" rather than "skill".


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Perco_lator #32 Posted 27 March 2019 - 08:32 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 27 March 2019 - 04:08 PM, said:

 

 

"If a certain class or vehicle is found to be over/under performing vs others then balancing is needed."

 

So how exactly do you or anyone else think that this is determined? What is the criteria used to know what is, and what is not?

 

So sorry, I'm only pretending to be intelligent. :B

 

Cheers!

 

Prenzlau

 

 

 

Specifically It's done by WG by doing statistical analysis of data collected from every game, plane & player played on all servers. It's not determined by you or I.

 



Perco_lator #33 Posted 27 March 2019 - 08:37 PM

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View PostAzis_, on 27 March 2019 - 04:18 PM, said:

Another question I think should be asked?

Just what are people meaning by "Balanced"? Exact same performance across each class? Same HP, Guns, climb, turn.....?

 

Each have strength and weakness, which is how it should be.

I also think pilot "skill" should be removed from the conversation because lets be honest, it is a video game and it takes no "skill" being a pilot to play. Knowledge of the game and planes, I would agree with...alas it is much harder to type "knowledge" rather than "skill".

 

Balance meaning that on average one class or plane doesn't have a greater impact on the outcome of games where skill is taken out of the equation because it's an average of all players performance.

losttwo #34 Posted 27 March 2019 - 10:15 PM

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View PostPerco_lator, on 27 March 2019 - 03:37 PM, said:

 

Balance meaning that on average one class or plane doesn't have a greater impact on the outcome of games where skill is taken out of the equation because it's an average of all players performance.

 

So basically you want tennis ball canons to try and play tennis with each other, then call it a spectator sport.

There is a reason you use a bat in a batting cage



mnbv_fockewulfe #35 Posted 27 March 2019 - 10:18 PM

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View PostAzis_, on 27 March 2019 - 08:18 PM, said:

Another question I think should be asked?

Just what are people meaning by "Balanced"? Exact same performance across each class? Same HP, Guns, climb, turn.....?

 

Each have strength and weakness, which is how it should be.

I also think pilot "skill" should be removed from the conversation because lets be honest, it is a video game and it takes no "skill" being a pilot to play. Knowledge of the game and planes, I would agree with...alas it is much harder to type "knowledge" rather than "skill".

 

There are several ways to approach game balance and WOWP is confused if not total absent about what kind of balance it has/wants.

There are two kinds of balance:
Hard counters

and

Soft counters

 

A good example of a game with hard counters is Rock, Paper, Scissors. Rock always beats scissors, regardless of whether the player has the skill to make a rock shape with his fist or his ability to predict that rock would beat his opponents choice. Counters always achieve their goal with great efficiency and player skill in acting out the counter has very little affect on the outcome.

 

An example of a game with soft counters would be Super smash bros melee (or street fighter, whichever you're more familiar with). Moves and attacks require player skill to perform, with the possibility of basic and advanced moves requiring less and more player skill respectively.

i.e. using your up attack to counter a player above you is useless if you use the move too early. A game with soft counters highly rewards a player who has mastered the controls and likewise, has high coordination with his hands and fingers.

 

WoWP is a PvP/PvE game with both hard counter and soft counter balancing.

If WoWP is going to be Pvp, it should have a soft counter system,

and if WoWP is going to be PvE it should have a hard counter system.

The devs never quite got around to fully implementing their hard counter system with 2.0.:facepalm:


Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 


 


Azis_ #36 Posted 27 March 2019 - 10:50 PM

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View PostPerco_lator, on 27 March 2019 - 12:37 PM, said:

 

Balance meaning that on average one class or plane doesn't have a greater impact on the outcome of games where skill is taken out of the equation because it's an average of all players performance.

 

Sounds like a MM job then.....? For any sort of realism, there should be match ups with only fighters/MR's.....bombers/GA's etc if I get you correct.

Many missions were flown during these wars not involving more than one-two type of aircraft.....

I think Milton Bradley still sells board games......


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Azis_ #37 Posted 27 March 2019 - 10:51 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 27 March 2019 - 02:15 PM, said:

 

So basically you want tennis ball canons to try and play tennis with each other, then call it a spectator sport.

There is a reason you use a bat in a batting cage

 

LOL,

And you claim you just keep your mouth shut :P

 


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Azis_ #38 Posted 27 March 2019 - 10:52 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 27 March 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

 

There are several ways to approach game balance and WOWP is confused if not total absent about what kind of balance it has/wants.

There are two kinds of balance:
Hard counters

and

Soft counters

 

A good example of a game with hard counters is Rock, Paper, Scissors. Rock always beats scissors, regardless of whether the player has the skill to make a rock shape with his fist or his ability to predict that rock would beat his opponents choice. Counters always achieve their goal with great efficiency and player skill in acting out the counter has very little affect on the outcome.

 

An example of a game with soft counters would be Super smash bros melee (or street fighter, whichever you're more familiar with). Moves and attacks require player skill to perform, with the possibility of basic and advanced moves requiring less and more player skill respectively.

i.e. using your up attack to counter a player above you is useless if you use the move too early. A game with soft counters highly rewards a player who has mastered the controls and likewise, has high coordination with his hands and fingers.

 

WoWP is a PvP/PvE game with both hard counter and soft counter balancing.

If WoWP is going to be Pvp, it should have a soft counter system,

and if WoWP is going to be PvE it should have a hard counter system.

The devs never quite got around to fully implementing their hard counter system with 2.0.:facepalm:

 

IOW, planes should have their own attributes, and leave it in the hands of players knowledge to exploit each.......???????
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Perco_lator #39 Posted 27 March 2019 - 11:42 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 27 March 2019 - 06:15 PM, said:

 

So basically you want tennis ball canons to try and play tennis with each other, then call it a spectator sport.

There is a reason you use a bat in a batting cage

 

No but I would like a competitive game where people aren't all playing the same class or plane because it is overpowered.

losttwo #40 Posted 27 March 2019 - 11:47 PM

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View PostAzis_, on 27 March 2019 - 05:51 PM, said:

 

LOL,

And you claim you just keep your mouth shut :P

 

 

is WOWP balanced the way these pantywaste are wanting :teethhappy:

Yeah I keep my mouth shut. I let my fingers do the typing.

Not telling you what I do with my tongue. :popcorn:

 

For the rest of you about balance.

 

The entire idea of balance in a wargame of planes is ludicrous.

If the game is suppose to be balanced then we would all fly the same plane and really totally on player skill.

Talk about seal clubbing. Then everyone in a P-51H would be complaining because experienced players are not giving them a chance

and would want separate MM's based on experience.

 

Each advancement in aircraft during the war was as a result of defeat.

Each new plane was built to defeat the current over powered conquering plane. Thus making the king of the sky obsolete.

 

If you are not willing to learn a smidgen of aircraft history and how they were used then stop your belly aching.

The balance in this game seems to be better now than it was during the 15 HUMANS vs 15 HUMANS.

 

You want to complain about balance...Try humans only versus humans... NOW THAT WAS A BLAST

More so watching the forums as people whined and cried about BALANCE, RAMMING and FLIGHTS.







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