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Another request to WG: Rescind the turret dps at max range nerfs on planes that never had good, let ...


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legoboy0401 #21 Posted 12 February 2019 - 01:55 AM

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This topic is important, and I won't let it die. It needs to remain in the public eye.

 

 

Upon further inspection, this issue doesn't seem to go away at all. Even the Tier X Blohm and Voss Multi-role Batplane's turret has been made completely irrelevant and useless by WG's shortsighted decision to nerf EVERY TURRET AT EVERY TIER, INCLUDING ONES BALANCED AND ONES UNDERPERFORMING TO BEGIN WITH.


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jack_wdw #22 Posted 12 February 2019 - 03:11 PM

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I'm utterly opposed against any more buffs.
Maybe you should team up with another player with a HF as an escort, or fly defensive formation with another bomber like most bombers did IRL.

Your proposal would make most single flying bombers untouchable.
When being attacked by a HF, a single bomber usually doesn't stand a fighting chance because it is a bomber and not a fighter.
If you want a fighting chance, fly a fighter.

wylleEcoyote #23 Posted 12 February 2019 - 04:34 PM

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Hello. German Bomber pilot here. Here is my two cents.

To the topic of Rescinding the Great Turret Nerf.
With the introduction of American Bombers i can understand why it happened. But I would not mind seeing it go.
My defensive firepower AT BEST is the equivalent of a similar tier german light fighter.
Without its Cannons.

In the real life with no such thing as Hitpoints, instant fix engines, or pilots that get killed only to come back a minute later saying "Tis Just a Flesh Wound.
.. ... this makes LMG's just fine for damaging enough things in a fighter that the pilot turns around and goes home.

This is best mirrored in the game by how many criticals you can make with your turrets.
and with gun sights, speshul ammo, and the correct gunner perks ...
... when i need to shoot something it will sufficiently "discourage" most interceptors.
But that is the literal weapon of last resort.

My primary means of defense is to fly higher/faster than any interceptor.
which is possible because i am not carrying a few tons of .50 BMG ammo and the big [edited]twinlinked turrets to shoot it all with...
(exception: P-38. But seeing as those planes are crit magnets and their guns are woefully short ranged its a fair match up) .

Flying THAT close to heaven  IS effectively balanced because i am close enough to  RNGezus that he takes over the placement of any bomb i release.
scattering them to the four winds.

When i am Untouchable; I am Combat Ineffective.

If i reverse this ... the lower i fly the more precise my bombs become.
To the point that i can target specific sections of ground Targets with no chance of missing
IF i am willing to fly low and slow enough to be intercepted by Lags Spits and Zeros.

Most of German Bomber pilots are somewhere in between trying to ascertain the happiest medium for their level of skill. 
Juuuust Slow enough and Close enough to the ground to reliably hit the target...

        


legoboy0401 #24 Posted 12 February 2019 - 09:18 PM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 12 February 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

I'm utterly opposed against any more buffs.
Maybe you should team up with another player with a HF as an escort, or fly defensive formation with another bomber like most bombers did IRL.

Your proposal would make most single flying bombers untouchable.
When being attacked by a HF, a single bomber usually doesn't stand a fighting chance because it is a bomber and not a fighter.
If you want a fighting chance, fly a fighter.

 

I'm opposed to your right to even say that, but that doesn't make me right, anymore than you being opposed to any turret buffs on any planes make you right in thinking and saying so.

 

Block Quote

 Your proposal would make most single flying bombers untouchable.

 

 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

You, less-than-good-sir, are an ignorant idiot. I highly suspect you are a Heavy Fighter main that just wants to remain to take only 10 damage from the weakest bombers while EASILY stomping them without consequence.

 

Even if you aren't, HOW THE HECK WOULD BALANCING BOMBER DEFENSES AROUND TAKING HALF OF THE HEALTH OF SAME-TIER HEAVY FIGHTERS BE TOTALLY BROKEN? 

 

Yes, it might make it difficult for slow high-altitude fighters on low health to hunt bombers, but(this is my opinion, so don't freak out), have you ever considered that a fighter in that specific situation shouldn't be hunting bombers in the first place? 

 

There are other options for attacking bombers already in place that could generally allow even slow high-altitude fighters on low health to AT THE VERY LEAST get MOST OF A SAME-TIER BOMBER'S HEALTH BEFORE DYING:

 

Spoiler

 

I'm not advocating for returning to any of the bombers that had once super strong defenses any more defensive strength than they have right now, so chill out.

 

I'm only advocating for giving back to bombers that had ALREADY BALANCED OR WEAK DEFENSES BEFORE THE NERF THEIR STATUS BEFORE THAT NERF, PLUS OTHER PLANES THAT ALSO HAD ALREADY BALANCED OR WEAK DEFENSES BEFORE THE NERF THAT STATUS THAT THEY HAD BEFORE THAT NERF AS WELL.

 

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 Maybe you should team up with another player with a HF as an escort, or fly defensive formation with another bomber like most bombers did IRL.

 

 First of all, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO FLY WITH AN ESCORT in a bomber, BECAUSE BOMBERS WERE NOT INTENDED TO BE BALANCED AROUND IT IN THIS GAME. OTHERWISE, WG WOULD HAVE PROVIDED A BOT ESCORT OR TWO OR 3 BOT BOMBERS SO YOU COULD FLY IN A BATTLE BOX FORMATION BY DEFAULT! Second, BOT BOMBERs? You ARE hilarious. They don't fly at the necessary altitude to prevent them from being jumped by even the most low-altitude multi-roles, they are incompetent, and they never take the necessary defensive action to protect themselves properly. Also, if you are in a high-level bomber like a Ju-88a, for instance, and the only other bomber on your team is a Pe-2, either you go to his altitude and get murdered by the even the lowest-altitude multi-roles because you aren't as fast as he is, or he goes to yours, and he stalls and/or is very ineffective overall.

 

Flying with Attack Flights is a whole different kettle of fish. Could it work? Ehhhhhhh... kind of, but it doesn't change the fact that even with the LEAST determined actual player(rather than a bot) you will probably go down, in fact you will probably be targeted FIRST. Also, there is the issue of the Attack Flights abandoning you when their Command Center is retaken by the enemy, leaving you a sitting duck at low altitude with no defense other than your own, as you desperately get back to high altitude before every fighter class jumps you and attempts to take you down before you can get there.

 

Personally, I wouldn't do this with anything other than something like a B-17G or B-32(bombers that ALREADY CAN MOSTLY DEFEND THEMSELVES WITHOUT HELP) myself.

 

Lastly, I don't believe that you can actually flight with two bombers. I think WG made it so that you can only have one Bomber in a flight(correct me if I am wrong, of course)

 

Block Quote

 When being attacked by a HF, a single bomber usually doesn't stand a fighting chance because it is a bomber and not a fighter.
If you want a fighting chance, fly a fighter.

 

What do these two sentences even mean? On first glance, they appear logical. I would be an idiot myself to argue with them. There are no apparent logical contradictions in either sentence. In fact, they seem self-evident.

 

But upon closer inspection, they reveal a kind of bias on your part, perhaps against bombers as a whole. You always want bombers to lose(because maybe you think they are all OP?). 

 

It makes me wonder if you have ever actually played bombers at all, because if you have, you should have learned right now of the MASSIVE overall bias, especially since the nerf to the defenses of bombers with already weak defenses, in favor of Heavy Fighters in Heavy Fighter v Bomber engagements, except in a few well-known exceptions to this rule.

 

I think, I think that you think that those exceptions ARE the rule. They are not. They are EXCEPTIONS to a rule of BIAS IN FAVOR of Heavy Fighters and AGAINST Bombers(to the point where most Bombers HAVE NO CHANCE OF SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDING THEMSELVES AT ALL) whenever Bombers come up against Heavy Fighters.

 

 

In summary, you are DEAD wrong, and in addition, there are very many reasons why you are DEAD wrong. I tried to cover them all here, but if I missed any, let me know.

 


Edited by legoboy0401, 12 February 2019 - 09:24 PM.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


legoboy0401 #25 Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:04 PM

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View PostwylleEcoyote, on 12 February 2019 - 08:34 AM, said:

Hello. German Bomber pilot here. Here is my two cents.

To the topic of Rescinding the Great Turret Nerf.
With the introduction of American Bombers i can understand why it happened. But I would not mind seeing it go.
My defensive firepower AT BEST is the equivalent of a similar tier german light fighter.
Without its Cannons.

In the real life with no such thing as Hitpoints, instant fix engines, or pilots that get killed only to come back a minute later saying "Tis Just a Flesh Wound.
.. ... this makes LMG's just fine for damaging enough things in a fighter that the pilot turns around and goes home.

This is best mirrored in the game by how many criticals you can make with your turrets.
and with gun sights, speshul ammo, and the correct gunner perks ...
... when i need to shoot something it will sufficiently "discourage" most interceptors.
But that is the literal weapon of last resort.

My primary means of defense is to fly higher/faster than any interceptor.
which is possible because i am not carrying a few tons of .50 BMG ammo and the big [edited]twinlinked turrets to shoot it all with...
(exception: P-38. But seeing as those planes are crit magnets and their guns are woefully short ranged its a fair match up) .

Flying THAT close to heaven  IS effectively balanced because i am close enough to  RNGezus that he takes over the placement of any bomb i release.
scattering them to the four winds.

When i am Untouchable; I am Combat Ineffective.

If i reverse this ... the lower i fly the more precise my bombs become.
To the point that i can target specific sections of ground Targets with no chance of missing
IF i am willing to fly low and slow enough to be intercepted by Lags Spits and Zeros.

Most of German Bomber pilots are somewhere in between trying to ascertain the happiest medium for their level of skill. 
Juuuust Slow enough and Close enough to the ground to reliably hit the target...

 

I do not do this. I hover around 3,000 meters in all of my German Bombers that I have played so far(my Do 17Z and Ju-88A), and in the case of the Ju-88a, when I see a P-38F coming for me, I will climb up to about 3,550, 3,570 meters usually, and in a rare occasion THE BOTTOM, but only THE BOTTOM of the red zone, which as soon as the threat has been dealt with or has cleared the area, I WILL COME DOWN FROM IMMEDIATELY.

 

I plan to play my newly-bought Do 217 M similarly, at least to start with until I have a grip on the plane's playstyle and it is elited(fully-upgraded).


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


legoboy0401 #26 Posted 23 February 2019 - 01:35 AM

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I would like more input, especially from the Devs, on this, so here goes nothing.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


legoboy0401 #27 Posted 26 February 2019 - 01:39 AM

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and... ... I got nothing. Well, why? Does LITERALLY NO ONE care about this? Does literally EVERYONE disapprove?

 

COME ON guys, the feedback won't provide itself.


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


vcharng #28 Posted 26 February 2019 - 02:00 AM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 12 February 2019 - 03:11 PM, said:

I'm utterly opposed against any more buffs.
Maybe you should team up with another player with a HF as an escort, or fly defensive formation with another bomber like most bombers did IRL.

Your proposal would make most single flying bombers untouchable.
When being attacked by a HF, a single bomber usually doesn't stand a fighting chance because it is a bomber and not a fighter.
If you want a fighting chance, fly a fighter.

 

Escorts won't work in this game because ground pounders don't worth enough for fighters to divert from their own job to protect them.

That's why bombers and GAAs HAVE TO stand a fighting chance even unescorted. Because that's the only way it would work in the context of this game.

And no, single flying bombers never are untouchable, not even a pre-nerf B-32. Wait until it's at minimum HP by AA guns and occupied by a bombing run, and anything better than a Me 410 (mind you, that's one tier lower) can kill it with ease.

 

My proposal for this is to make sure bombers can hit stuff at top altitude. Wanna shoot it down? you can and you will, but you're gonna waste a lot of time climbing all the way up.

Due to the notorious reload time, it won't make bombers OP anyway. You can at most flip one cap per 60 seconds while fighters can do that much faster. How is that supposed to be OP?

 

Or, buff the Defensive Fire effect, perhaps add a similar effect to turrets even without that skill (and cumulative with the skill). Turrets are supposed to be defensive, not offensive. We make it offensive only when we don't have other choices to make them useful.



legoboy0401 #29 Posted 26 February 2019 - 02:04 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 25 February 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

 

Escorts won't work in this game because ground pounders don't worth enough for fighters to divert from their own job to protect them.

That's why bombers and GAAs HAVE TO stand a fighting chance even unescorted. Because that's the only way it would work in the context of this game.

And no, single flying bombers never are untouchable, not even a pre-nerf B-32. Wait until it's at minimum HP by AA guns and occupied by a bombing run, and anything better than a Me 410 (mind you, that's one tier lower) can kill it with ease.

 

My proposal for this is to make sure bombers can hit stuff at top altitude. Wanna shoot it down? you can and you will, but you're gonna waste a lot of time climbing all the way up.

Due to the notorious reload time, it won't make bombers OP anyway. You can at most flip one cap per 60 seconds while fighters can do that much faster. How is that supposed to be OP?

 

Or, buff the Defensive Fire effect, perhaps add a similar effect to turrets even without that skill (and cumulative with the skill). Turrets are supposed to be defensive, not offensive. We make it offensive only when we don't have other choices to make them useful.

 

At LEAST give back the damage at max range to those planes who had balanced and/or subpar defenses BEFORE the nerf.

 

These planes' defensive armament are A MASSIVE, SAD, COMPLETE AND UTTER JOKE right now.


Edited by legoboy0401, 26 February 2019 - 02:04 AM.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


vcharng #30 Posted 26 February 2019 - 02:11 AM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 26 February 2019 - 01:39 AM, said:

 Does literally EVERYONE disapprove?

There are fighter [edited]who parked their Tornadoes behind my Me 265, got shot down by my manual fire, and whined about "Turret [edited]" and "GAA OP" and stuff.

The magnificent turret nerf is just WG's response to these [edited].

They are yielding to the fighter supremacists and making the game even more unplayable to non-fighters than it already is.

That's why you don't get feedbacks, because these are exactly the player base behind it. The player base that simply want GAAs and bombers to be flying targets while they fighters enjoy their air-to-air supremacy wet dream.



vcharng #31 Posted 26 February 2019 - 02:13 AM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 26 February 2019 - 02:04 AM, said:

 

At LEAST give back the damage at max range to those planes who had balanced and/or subpar defenses BEFORE the nerf.

 

These planes' defensive armament are A MASSIVE, SAD, COMPLETE AND UTTER JOKE right now.

For those planes I think they need more than that.

What good can we get from buffing the effective range of a set of sorry 7.92s from 200 to 400 meters? Nothing. They need either more firepower or fly higher and faster, or both.



legoboy0401 #32 Posted 26 February 2019 - 02:58 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 25 February 2019 - 06:11 PM, said:

There are fighter [edited]who parked their Tornadoes behind my Me 265, got shot down by my manual fire, and whined about "Turret [edited]" and "GAA OP" and stuff.

The magnificent turret nerf is just WG's response to these [edited].

They are yielding to the fighter supremacists and making the game even more unplayable to non-fighters than it already is.

That's why you don't get feedbacks, because these are exactly the player base behind it. The player base that simply want GAAs and bombers to be flying targets while they fighters enjoy their air-to-air supremacy wet dream.

 

Fair point. When I play my fighters and multiroles, I know what I can tangle with, and what I need to avoid when it is player-controlled. For example: Player IL-2(m)? Not a problem, EASY (LIKE SUNDAY MORNING) PICKINGS. :izmena: Player B-17G?:ohmy: "NOPE-A NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE!"

 

But MOST players(excepting some of the more prominent and long-time players on these forums)? :facepalm:

 

Player B-17G? "**** the torpedoes, full speed ahead!":izmena:(gets just a little of the B-17G's health while losing 100% of their own in the process) :ohmy::amazed::(:sceptic:


An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


legoboy0401 #33 Posted 26 February 2019 - 03:03 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 25 February 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

For those planes I think they need more than that.

What good can we get from buffing the effective range of a set of sorry 7.92s from 200 to 400 meters? Nothing. They need either more firepower or fly higher and faster, or both.

 

Yeah, most low-caliber defensive weapons have ABYSMAL DPS, which is not actually wrong, as they would have been that bad against the planes they are up against in this game. The problem is, pretty much all but the Beaufighter(the Boulton Paul Defiant turret was only ever basically a one or two off experiment) have their historical defensive loadouts.

 

I still think that returning that DPS at max range would be a start, coupled with them flying higher and faster still(for the bombers) or coupled with having their defensive guns get massively buffed DPS or special baked-in defensive traits(GAA, perhaps a few Heavies like the Bf-110s) would be the optimal route(s).


Edited by legoboy0401, 26 February 2019 - 03:04 AM.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


trikke #34 Posted 26 February 2019 - 03:27 AM

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fortunately, WG makes buff/nerf decisions based on data, instead of anecdotes       so i applaud your youthful enthusiasm      i could use some of that

 

don't know why it took them sooo long to nerf the Pancake, but we had fun until WG took the T-bird away       surely they had 10 tons of bad news data

 

WG has somewhat rolled back a few nerfs in the past, so who knows         there had better be a big basketful of bomber deaths, much more than before the nerf


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vcharng #35 Posted 26 February 2019 - 03:30 AM

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View Posttrikke, on 26 February 2019 - 03:27 AM, said:

fortunately, WG makes buff/nerf decisions based on data, instead of anecdotes       so i applaud your youthful enthusiasm      i could use some of that

 

don't know why it took them sooo long to nerf the Pancake, but we had fun until WG took the T-bird away       surely they had 10 tons of bad news data

 

WG has somewhat rolled back a few nerfs in the past, so who knows         there had better be a big basketful of bomber deaths, much more than before the nerf

 

They won't get bomber deaths if no one flies them anymore.

legoboy0401 #36 Posted 28 February 2019 - 01:08 AM

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For those who were wondering, YES, I do STILL care about this issue.

 

 

More feedback would be appreciated.


Edited by legoboy0401, 28 February 2019 - 01:19 AM.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris





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