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Yup, Specialization is Still a Stupid Mechanic


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StoptheViolins #1 Posted 19 January 2019 - 12:53 AM

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Yup, still stupid.  When is WG going to get rid of it?  I don't see the other online plane, tank, ship games adding magic devices that allow a 262 to out turn a Spit.  Or allow a Spit to magically out climb and boost a 262.  Really.  I am about to quit until 3.0 drops.  Hey, want some magic beans to make your shots curve 90 degrees to hit any plane on your screen?

 



Jazz_4 #2 Posted 19 January 2019 - 01:02 AM

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specialist planes can be a pain to fight honestly if their are a bunch of them on the other team I just leave and go play in another match. or just try to get some shots in the same match before I leave. 

Captain_Rownd #3 Posted 19 January 2019 - 01:04 AM

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LMG #4 Posted 19 January 2019 - 01:07 AM

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My biggest issue with specialization is how it limits your options. Planes like the Bf 109 Z, the IL-8, most multirole fighters and even the IL-40s lost part of their charm when you suddenly can't pick your plane's guns and ordnance. The worst part is that often you're stuck with the less reliable option; the Z has to use the short-range, slow firing 30s and the IL-8 has to use the two FAB-250 instead of the more reliable six-pack of FAB-100


This is my IL-2 (t). There are many like it, but this one is mine. :child:

Bobby_Tables #5 Posted 19 January 2019 - 02:05 AM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 18 January 2019 - 06:53 PM, said:

Hey, want some magic beans to make your shots curve 90 degrees to hit any plane on your screen?

 

 

Yes, where might I obtain these magic beans?



legoboy0401 #6 Posted 19 January 2019 - 02:19 AM

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Agreed. This is most certainly a problem. While the locking in "(presumed by the system to be) the optimal configuration of modules" is super irritating, I'm more concerned with the high price to get equipment to the very best it can get, and most of all, the scaling power of the equipment(yeah, sure, the negatives do balance this by a bit, but sometimes they "balance" it to the point where said equipment under no circumstances is worth using, so the balancing factor of the negatives is at best kind of hit and miss)

 

Does this remind you of anything(albeit without the negatives)? How about Star Wars Battlefront II(EA)'s "Star Cards"? They too share the system of scaling power. WG borrowing a grind element from one of the least enjoyed grinds of 2017 cannot reflect well on them.

 

(It also just so happens to completely botch balance, for "reasons.")

 

Worse than that though, the bigger problem is not knowing anything about how exactly a given enemy aircraft performs. With specialist aircraft, some stupid stuff can be done, such as completely switching(or nearly so) the playstyle of certain hybrid playstyle aircraft, and a few others.

 

In which case you are at a strong disadvantage in direct combat with said aircraft.

 

This would be much less of a problem if we had aircraft comparisons in the Rosters during the load-in, but we don't, at least not since 2.0.


Edited by legoboy0401, 19 January 2019 - 02:21 AM.

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wylleEcoyote #7 Posted 19 January 2019 - 03:46 AM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 January 2019 - 09:19 PM, said:

Agreed. This is most certainly a problem.... and most of all, the scaling power of the equipment(yeah, sure, the negatives do balance this by a bit, but sometimes they "balance" it to the point where said equipment under no circumstances is worth using, so the balancing factor of the negatives is at best kind of hit and miss)

 

(It also just so happens to completely botch balance, for "reasons.")

 

Worse than that though, the bigger problem is not knowing anything about how exactly a given enemy aircraft performs. With specialist aircraft, some stupid stuff can be done, such as completely switching(or nearly so) the playstyle of certain hybrid playstyle aircraft, and a few others.

 

In which case you are at a strong disadvantage in direct combat with said aircraft.

 

This would be much less of a problem if we had aircraft comparisons in the Rosters during the load-in, but we don't, at least not since 2.0.


I disagree.

The capacity to Min/Max your plane as little or as much as you want is a great for keeping things new and interesting.
And while the benefits are amazing to behold ... they came along with flaws that will get that plane killed just as fast as it can kill you
IF you know how to capitalize on it.

As to being in a strong disadvantage in a direct fight ... Just about every plane in the game has a hard counter of one kind or another.
Equipment may change the particulars for individual matchups but
And in the end killing planes is important but it is just a means to the end.
Because each game is won and lost via zone control.  

How many rants has HamHockJones posted about being in a game where he scores twice the personal points of everyone else on his team in his OP spitfire and still lost because while he was flying around the zone in the map center killing anything that moves the other zones around him got flipped and stayed that way?  



example




 


Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is on par with my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
 I start on the right track and then sometimes make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 

Specialist Planes earned: Japan, USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Europe
Light Fighters:  Ar 68/80, Bf 109 B/E/E-3/F/G, Fw 159, He 51/100 D-1/112, Ho 229, Me 209 A/ v4/ P.1092, Spit.V DB605​, Ta 152 
Ki-5/8/10/27/43-1, A4N/5M, Hurricane Ia, Bristol 146, Spitfire Vb IM, DH.100 F1, I-17Yak-1MiG-3
P-23/36/36C/39N-1/40, XP-31/36F/55, Hawk 75M, Model 81A-1, , P-51A, XF15C

MultiRole Fighters: Type 91, P-12/26/35/43, XP-44, P-47B, F11C-2, F4F/U-1, 
TyphoonAr 65, Fw 190 A-1/5/D, BV P.210, I-5/15/16(e)(l)

Heavy Fighters: P-38 F/J, XP-58P-82 B, Beaufighter/ VAo 192, Fw 57, Bf 110 B/C-6/E, Me 410, Bf 109 Z, Do 335 A-1, Me 262, Tu-1, SE 100,

Attack Aircraft: BSh-2, Hs 123/129 A, Ha 137, Fw 189 C, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2
Bombers: Do 17 Z, He 111 H2, Pe-2, Do 217 M
 


CaptainBussey #8 Posted 19 January 2019 - 03:56 AM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 18 January 2019 - 06:53 PM, said:

Yup, still stupid.  When is WG going to get rid of it?  I don't see the other online plane, tank, ship games adding magic devices that allow a 262 to out turn a Spit.  Or allow a Spit to magically out climb and boost a 262.  Really.  I am about to quit until 3.0 drops.  Hey, want some magic beans to make your shots curve 90 degrees to hit any plane on your screen?

 

 

You are exaggerating a little.

White_Widow18 #9 Posted 19 January 2019 - 04:24 AM

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*gets popcorn and watches the comments*

I must be the only person who doesn't equip their planes because I find it usually imbalances them and makes them lesser no matter how you do it.

Meaning I find the system -great- because it's a giant time and money sink that keeps eyeballs on the game and ultimately doesn't seem to be an actual -benefit-. Specialists all on the other team? My only concern when I see a team full of specialists is that they -all- -SHOULD- know exactly how to fly their planes. They're -far- less likely to make flight mistakes and are -way- more likely to understand how to respond or predict another player's flight path and use that -with- that specific plane they are in. This gives me to know "approach with caution" which.. honestly gives me an advantage if I am paying attention because I know to avoid or ensure that I hit first and hit hard enough they can't respond.

YMMV, but I'd rather fly a plane without gear most of the time or I only put one key piece of gear, not all of it. 

qu33kKC #10 Posted 19 January 2019 - 03:49 PM

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just a comment, not a complaint, but after watching a Chain Lightning pulling lead on my Flapjack, I asked the pilot post-game "HOW YU DO DAT??"

 

Their response:  "12 pt. Pilot and Specialized Equipment."

 

 



Postal_Monkey #11 Posted 19 January 2019 - 04:44 PM

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I don't think the Specialization option is perfect but I don't think it's an issue either. I agree that I'd like to determine the upgrade to keep. If I want a different option for my gun, then I should be able to have it.

 

Clearly you're over-exaggerating about your 262 vs Spit analogy. The Spit did something wrong if it got outmaneuvered by a 262. And the 262 did something wrong if it let a Spit stay with it. No amount of specialization will get a 262 to a 80+ maneuverability rating lol.


 

Specialization does not equal proficiency. A big difference, especially tier VII and below. You can get specialization very quickly if you want at Tier V, doesn't mean that your an expert BF109E pilot. However, when I load up I go in assuming they will be tough until I run into them and they prove otherwise.


 

@Legoboy, how boring would this game be if every time you ran into a XF5U it behaved the same way? I enjoy being challenged. And if I get out played (or out specialized) then I hopefully learn from that next time I run into that pilot. I assume the other pilot learns when I defeat them too. If they don't, well then they die the same death as the last time I took them down :)


Edited by Postal_Monkey, 19 January 2019 - 04:44 PM.


CorvusCorvax #12 Posted 19 January 2019 - 04:55 PM

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View PostPostal_Monkey, on 19 January 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:

I don't think the Specialization option is perfect but I don't think it's an issue either. I agree that I'd like to determine the upgrade to keep. If I want a different option for my gun, then I should be able to have it.

 

Clearly you're over-exaggerating about your 262 vs Spit analogy. The Spit did something wrong if it got outmaneuvered by a 262. And the 262 did something wrong if it let a Spit stay with it. No amount of specialization will get a 262 to a 80+ maneuverability rating lol.


 

Specialization does not equal proficiency. A big difference, especially tier VII and below. You can get specialization very quickly if you want at Tier V, doesn't mean that your an expert BF109E pilot. However, when I load up I go in assuming they will be tough until I run into them and they prove otherwise.


 

@Legoboy, how boring would this game be if every time you ran into a XF5U it behaved the same way? I enjoy being challenged. And if I get out played (or out specialized) then I hopefully learn from that next time I run into that pilot. I assume the other pilot learns when I defeat them too. If they don't, well then they die the same death as the last time I took them down :)

 

I agree with all this.  If anyone who owns a 262 is having trouble with any Spit, they are flying it wrong, bone stock, specialized, whatever.  Now, a 262 having trouble with a Do-335?  Yup.  XP-58?  Yes.  Pancake?  Absolutely. 

 

I completely agree that I like surprises in my engagements.  Learning to fly your machine to the last 5%, and make it do stuff that folks ask "HOW U DO DAT???" is fun.



Catch21 #13 Posted 19 January 2019 - 06:07 PM

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View PostCaptain_Rownd, on 19 January 2019 - 01:04 AM, said:

If it bleeds I can kill it

 

There's a magic device to prevent that happening too, though I can't recall the $ cost other than it's not cheap.

BB3_Oregon_Steel #14 Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:57 PM

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Ok, 

 

I'm going to disagree with you that nothing similar to specialization exists in other games.  It's called different things and they are structured somewhat differently but they exist. 

 

In World of Warships the equivalent of "Specialization" are "Upgrades".   Depending on the tier of the vessel each ship has somewhere between 1 and 6 upgrade slots and there are several possible upgrade types for each slot.  These upgrades can improve the accuracy of your gunnery, make you far less visible, make your ship turn sharper etc ... ... .  These Upgrades can significantly alter the overall performance of the ship and make it a selected combination of more durable/capable than ships which do not possess these upgrades.  There are differences of course, you don't have to gain any specific amount of experience to access them, they are available to purchase once you buy the ship, but in pretty much every way, the net impact of using them is going to be similar to what purchasing and mounting upgrades in the Specialist configuration accomplishes. 

 

One of the BIG differences that I don't like and which really had convinced me to avoid specialization is the bullseye effect. Once those little wings appear around you airplane symbol, any human player is going to gain some automatic and valuable intel about you as follows. 

 

1) You're a human player, not a bot which increases your threat level. 

2) Most likely you've been flying that plane a fair bit and are probably fairly good with it or you wouldn't have reached the specialist level (there will of course be exceptions). 

 

Given that your specialist plane denotes a higher threat level, it also draws a great deal of attention from other human players.  I certainly know that when I see a specialist aircraft, I tend to act differently towards it than I will another aircraft which may or may not have a skilled human at the controls. 

 

There is, therefor, a significant advantage to not specializing your aircraft and for a specialized aircraft to be worth the trouble, the additional equipment (which also has it's downside to use) needs to be great enough to offset that advantage and for the most part, at this stage, I don't see there normally being enough of an advantage to justify the cost at this time. 

 


"Don't mess with me because I can squish you like a bug, that is If I should decide to notice your existence in the first place".  

 

Yes, it's haughty and its arrogant but you're a battleship with 16 inch guns and Britannia Rules the Waves.  Maybe a bit of arrogance in this case is appropriate.  


qu33kKC #15 Posted 20 January 2019 - 10:32 PM

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View PostBB3_Oregon_Steel, on 19 January 2019 - 09:57 PM, said:

Ok, 

 

I'm going to disagree with you that nothing similar to specialization exists in other games.  It's called different things and they are structured somewhat differently but they exist.

 

Oh very much so.  The entire point of many games is gear-grinding, whatever it may be called.  Even Kantai Collection introduced it a few years back, and the search for the Akashi Arsenal micro-currency is literally the entire endgame play for most folks. (that, and leveling up ships for the gear needed for the upgrades, which isn't that much different than flying planes you don't really enjoy for Daily Missions in this game.)

Edited by qu33kKC, 21 January 2019 - 02:12 PM.


wylleEcoyote #16 Posted 20 January 2019 - 11:10 PM

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View PostWhite_Widow18, on 18 January 2019 - 11:24 PM, said:

*gets popcorn and watches the comments*

I must be the only person who doesn't equip their planes because I find it usually imbalances them and makes them lesser no matter how you do it.

Meaning I find the system -great- because it's a giant time and money sink that keeps eyeballs on the game and ultimately doesn't seem to be an actual -benefit-. Specialists all on the other team? My only concern when I see a team full of specialists is that they -all- -SHOULD- know exactly how to fly their planes. They're -far- less likely to make flight mistakes and are -way- more likely to understand how to respond or predict another player's flight path and use that -with- that specific plane they are in. This gives me to know "approach with caution" which.. honestly gives me an advantage if I am paying attention because I know to avoid or ensure that I hit first and hit hard enough they can't respond.

YMMV, but I'd rather fly a plane without gear most of the time or I only put one key piece of gear, not all of it. 


<clears throat in XP-58>
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View Postqu33kKC, on 19 January 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

just a comment, not a complaint, but after watching a Chain Lightning pulling lead on my Flapjack, I asked the pilot post-game "HOW YU DO DAT??"

 

Their response:  "12 pt. Pilot and Specialized Equipment."

 

 

 

... and he beat me to it.

But both of you make valid points. +1s all around.

Oops i ran out of positive posts  ... :hiding:

 


Edited by wylleEcoyote, 20 January 2019 - 11:12 PM.

Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is on par with my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
 I start on the right track and then sometimes make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 

Specialist Planes earned: Japan, USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Europe
Light Fighters:  Ar 68/80, Bf 109 B/E/E-3/F/G, Fw 159, He 51/100 D-1/112, Ho 229, Me 209 A/ v4/ P.1092, Spit.V DB605​, Ta 152 
Ki-5/8/10/27/43-1, A4N/5M, Hurricane Ia, Bristol 146, Spitfire Vb IM, DH.100 F1, I-17Yak-1MiG-3
P-23/36/36C/39N-1/40, XP-31/36F/55, Hawk 75M, Model 81A-1, , P-51A, XF15C

MultiRole Fighters: Type 91, P-12/26/35/43, XP-44, P-47B, F11C-2, F4F/U-1, 
TyphoonAr 65, Fw 190 A-1/5/D, BV P.210, I-5/15/16(e)(l)

Heavy Fighters: P-38 F/J, XP-58P-82 B, Beaufighter/ VAo 192, Fw 57, Bf 110 B/C-6/E, Me 410, Bf 109 Z, Do 335 A-1, Me 262, Tu-1, SE 100,

Attack Aircraft: BSh-2, Hs 123/129 A, Ha 137, Fw 189 C, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2
Bombers: Do 17 Z, He 111 H2, Pe-2, Do 217 M
 


ElricJC #17 Posted 21 January 2019 - 07:04 PM

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I like and dislike certain parts of the specialization and equipment system, but by and large I like it due to the fine tweaking it gives each of your aircraft. It's those little differences that can make a huge difference, be it to your benefit, or possibly even against it. You might hyper-specialize your plane, such as with the Spitfire example and how that dedicated specialization makes the plane especially fragile. Another pilot might sacrifice some of that TnB ability to give it greater torque, or make it tougher than other like planes so it can survive some engagements better than its peers.

 

However, I do not care for the system locking you into the "best" upgrades. I would like to select my own gun/ordinance configuration. I love my IL-20 for instance, but I preferred my quad 23s to the dual 57s because then I could defend myself a little better. But since I can't I specialized it to hit from VERY long range, hitting targets at 1,600+ meters out, which is good too. But I really would like more choice there, and it would work better with the equipment system, giving more variance for each aircraft.



GonerNL #18 Posted 23 January 2019 - 09:42 AM

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What I like about speccing is that I can slap some armor on my GA in the extra slots.

It is the only way to get them in more or less the same condition as pre 2.0.5 when we had generic equipment and camo.

 

What I absolutely hate is that I can no longer choose what consider top weapons on a plane, not what WG thinks.


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Jazz_4 #19 Posted 23 January 2019 - 11:18 AM

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so your saying if you specialize a f4u-1 the guns well be flipped from the 50 cals to the 20 mm? 

GonerNL #20 Posted 23 January 2019 - 02:39 PM

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Yep. And rockets, no more bombs.

 

Once specialized you're stuck with the 'top' weapons. 

For instance on the Me-410 you can in stock switch (once researched) between bombs, 20mm and 30mm, but as specialist you get 30mm's ... or nothing.

 


Edited by GonerNL, 23 January 2019 - 02:41 PM.

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