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When everyone is RIGHT, no one will be

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cobra_marksman #41 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:48 PM

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Let's use the game of  7 card poker. instead of the game of solitaire.  6 cards already dealt out, final card ( #7  still to be dealt  out )

Player #1 has 3 Aces showing on table.

Player #2  has 3 kings showing on the table.

Player #1  places a bet equal to the total amount that Player #2  has on table.

Does  Player #2   Call --- Raise---or ---Fold.

If he Calls... he's a fool . :ohmy:

If he Raises ....he's a bigger fool.:unsure:

If he Folds.... he's Not a Coward, nor is he a Fool.:popcorn:

He checked his odd's at drawing the 4th. king, and wisely folded his hand.:bajan:

 Evaluating the conditions in front of him and quitting the round, does not make him a Coward, nor a Hero.:D 

He decided not to waste his Time ... and all his Dimes, and he Wisely quits that round of cards. :great:

He gets to keep his dimes, and saves everyone, some playing time. :medal:

He's now dealt a new hand, with may just be a ....  much better  hand to play & gamble with.. (team ).:teethhappy:

They only problem is.... that in Wowp... unlike Poker.... you can't Bluff.:coin: 


Edited by cobra_marksman, 07 January 2019 - 07:17 PM.


Booze_Morgan #42 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:02 PM

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View PostAce_BOTlistic_Cosmo, on 07 January 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

so,

if I am playing a game of solitaire and realize that the game cannot be won...

am I free to fold the deck?

well, ahem...

that's a fairly close analogy to what we're debating here

 

Ace, there is very little comparison so Solitaire.  There is actually no analogy between the two.  Solitaire is solitary. WP involves others, and a slew of goals and achievements one never finds in a game involving only one.  This is not just a bad analogy, it is a non-existent one.

Edited by Booze_Morgan, 07 January 2019 - 06:03 PM.


El_Mulo #43 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:38 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 06 January 2019 - 07:49 PM, said:

    There was a battle I was in yesterday in which my team was winning decisively half way through. The best player (on the other team) at that point statistically announced they were leaving the battle because it was not going to be a winner. The other human players on that team were basically doomed. In this forum on a different thread I made my personal feelings known to that person who dropped. They tried to explain their reasoning. In the end all the excuses and explaining was reduced to "it was my time and my dime". 

 

    So I took a step back and reflected upon this. Was this player simply exercising their personal liberty and freedom? Even though I might no have liked it, do I have an obligation to respect it? If any player chooses to do things that are detrimental to their team on purpose, is that not their freedom of action? Do players shave any obligation, responsibility or accountability to play well for their team, or even participate fully? 

 

    If a player drops from a battle and it is their choice, of course that will effect the battle. If I for example select a ground attack plane, to which a have far less experience playing than a bomber, I know full well I'm not going to be able to give whatever team I am on the same effectiveness that I could in a bomber. It is however my freedom to pick and fly any plane type I wish. Am I hurting the team I might be on knowing I'm flying at a lower potential? 

 

    We all have freedom of choice. If we agree we all have freedom of choice and we respect other people for having the same freedom of choice, then in a sense every one is "right". When everyone is "right", however, no one is. Total liberty and total freedom creates "moral ambiguity". There is no means to really judge who is right and who is wrong. When I once raised the topic of "team play" and "team players", there were some people who were very definite about wanting to play their game, for themselves and if they help or hurt their team in the process, that is just an unintended side effect. Do players have the right and freedom to play whatever plane they want and play whatever style they want and team play is not required? I would say the vast majority of players would agree. Do you then have the right to cause detriment to your team through your freedom of choice? Ah now it gets complicated.

 

    Are players obligated and responsible for helping each other? Are they obligated to play their best? Are they obligated to stay for the entire battle? Are they expected to play at a certain level of competence? We are still talking about freedom to choose, are we not? If we are not obligated to each other and responsible to each other as players and as team mates, then I have to ask how can we hold WG accountable and responsible when we don't hold ourselves or each other accountable???

 

    We demand greater competence, and accountability from WG and yet we demand none of ourselves? When everyone is "right" there are no wrongs, when everyone is wrong, there are no "rights". So our reality in real life is not made of absolutes, it is made of a million shades of gray. The game we play and everything attached to it is also not made of absolutes. We don't always know what all the "rights" and "wrongs" are. That is why we have the forum and discord, that is why we converse and discuss and yes argue. It is the process of determining how we feel about our ideas when it comes to right and wrong. 

 

   The "rigged" game or not, has been a hot topic lately. Many ideas and thoughts, and yes some finger pointing as well. When you push that battle button, you have to come to terms that you don't know what is going to happen next. The game could give you the black screen or many other bugs could plague you. These things could happen to other people. Players could be having their own issues with their internet or PC. Players could be playing planes they are really potent flying or they could be grinding new planes or plane types. Players could be trying to complete daily missions or missions for planes and thus have slightly different motives versus pure team play. This is before I even mentioned bots or maps, or how the match maker selects planes and players. So many possibilities, so many possible unintentional contributors to any number of potential outcomes. Do we really understand all the factors that we might lump into one word, "rigged"? 

 

    So I ask you fine people, if you support freedom, then you must also accept all the possibilities that spawn from that freedom. What obligations do we have as players? I still tell my daughters "you get what you get and you do not throw a fit". They have heard that one all their lives. You cannot support a greater freedom and then complain about the consequences. You cannot tell someone they are wrong for exercising their freedom when you would want that same freedom. Or maybe not? Are there any lines or boundaries that players do uphold and protect? I have always lived by the standard that if you are not violating the rights of another or causing them harm in some way, then what you do is a valid freedom. 

 

    The other player at the beginning might think that it is indeed their "time and dime", and it might be, but what they are missing is that is also my "time and dime" and the other players on that person's team, that was their "times and dimes" as well. Are we at an absolute here, or are we in a vast sea of gray? There is no right or wrong answers, only opinions. My friends what is the truth here? Can you help me find a solution? All I ask is that you carefully consider your opinions and answers. Thanks.

 

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 

Everyone think yours posts are too long (Zigfried also, but he's afraid of you).  And they're right.  So the postulate is WRONG.

Also almost all think they're boring,  The rest remain in silence (respectfully).

 

BTW If I think there is no reason to continue trying to carry the battle for some m@$%m's benefit I will quit, and you can't do anything.

 

:trollface:

 

 

 


Edited by El_Mulo, 07 January 2019 - 06:41 PM.

What we say to death?

Captain_Underpants53 #44 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:56 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 07 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

 

    To put it bluntly what this all really comes down to is psychological losers and psychological winners. 

 

Winners win more frequent because they don't quit.

 

Losers lose more frequent because they quit and are psychological defeatists.

 

Just as it is in real life, it is your right to quit, give up and fail. There is no law against being a loser. 

 

People have to identify with their actions and take responsibility for their actions. There is no rule in Warplanes that says you cannot quit. That is a fact. Are there consequences for quitting? Probably only as far as your conscious goes. 

 

So people have the right and freedom to be as cowardly as they wish.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 

Block Quote

 Probably only as far as your conscious goes. 

 

conscience
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Prenzlau #45 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:01 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 07 January 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

 

 

conscience

 

Actually... if you think about it, it could be both...

 

You have to be conscious (aware) to have a conscience, right?

 

You know Captain, if you would just start following the path of the dark side, you would get the respect you deserve.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


 

 

 

 


Captain_Underpants53 #46 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:04 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 07 January 2019 - 12:41 PM, said:

 

    I think you already know my psychology Ace. You would make a fine court jester in my mead hall. Someone to make jokes and little witty quips until I either got bored or tired of you. So I tolerate you.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 

LOL.  Your mead hall?  Your fine court jester?  Until I either got bored or tired of you?  So I tolerate you?  You might want to seek professional help there, slick.  It seems you have moved lock, stock, and barrel into that castle you built in the sky!

 

:rolleyes:


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Captain_Underpants53 #47 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:08 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 07 January 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

 

Actually... if you think about it, it could be both...

 

You have to be conscious (aware) to have a conscience, right?

 

You know Captain, if you would just start following the path of the dark side, you would get the respect you deserve.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 

LOL.  What respect do I deserve?  None!  And I certainly don't want the kind of 'respect' you and your Klown Komedy Kompany bootlikker buddy enjoy.

 

:izmena:


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CorvusCorvax #48 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:22 PM

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View PostPerco_lator, on 07 January 2019 - 05:12 AM, said:

 

You've already admitted to quitting games, of course you don't like hearing that you are a POS.

 

Oh, dear.  Being wrong is a habit for you.  I guess that's why nobody cares what you think.  L.M.A.O.@U



Auwingr #49 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:34 PM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 06 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

Their time, their dime, flying what one wants when one wants, how one wants, where one wants, and not owing anyone a reason why, in the situation of quitting a game is missing something in my entirely humble opinion, and one quite experienced in pre and post 2.0. (I have another account, of course, with over 25K battles.)

 

This is what I feel is being left out of this:  When you hit battle, you have promised your team your best, even with the upper mentioned five Ws.  When you quit, you have renigged on a responsibility you freely chose to accept.  I feel you have the "right" to run out on your team given the above, but quitting is entirely distasteful and selfish and irresponsible.

 

WIth me, if I know dern well my team will lose at some point, I stay and fight if for no other reason than to increase my individual stats, damage, kills, etc...  I happen to have another reason, and that is the promise I made when I hit battle.  I keep my promises, I stand firm on responsibilities I chose to accept.  To quit is unacceptable to my idea of trustworthiness.  I find it distasteful.

 

Booze

 

I couldn't agree with you more. 

Before the changes to the Specialist qualifications, I would drop a battle once I realized that a win was all but impossible. 

To me it made no sense to continue, even if I was over 10K in XP.

But, that problem was sensibly resolved and now it makes sense to hang on to the very end.

 

 


My status is "Senior Airman". Is that because I'm old? :sceptic:

Prenzlau #50 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:37 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 07 January 2019 - 01:04 PM, said:

 

LOL.  Your mead hall?  Your fine court jester?  Until I either got bored or tired of you?  So I tolerate you?  You might want to seek professional help there, slick.  It seems you have moved lock, stock, and barrel into that castle you built in the sky!

 

:rolleyes:

 

    If you would seriously consider some of my ideas and thoughts, in a very short while you could be known as "General_ArmoredPants"!

 

You could command the battlefield and wield real power with fear and intimation being your allies.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


Edited by Prenzlau_Tyrannus, 07 January 2019 - 07:38 PM.

 

 

 

 


Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #51 Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:14 PM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 07 January 2019 - 01:02 PM, said:

 

Ace, there is very little comparison so Solitaire.  There is actually no analogy between the two.  Solitaire is solitary. WP involves others, and a slew of goals and achievements one never finds in a game involving only one.  This is not just a bad analogy, it is a non-existent one.

well boozer,

it's all based in the way I'm approaching the subject

to me this game has devolved from a state with energetic use of teamwork and community...

into a stale, boring and isolated slot machine where you pull the handle, get the results

you may have better understood my point of view had you been involved in the game pre 2.0h.crap

otherwise... yes, you are correct, I was being dramatic in description for effect

:B

Edited by Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo, 07 January 2019 - 08:14 PM.

if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #52 Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:25 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 07 January 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

 

    If you would seriously consider some of my ideas and thoughts, in a very short while you could be known as "General_ArmoredPants"!

 

You could command the battlefield and wield real power with fear and intimation being your allies.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

hmmm, picking on a player by twisting their chosen use name

please do not google Pretzel_Tranny_Uranus

be warned... it may be fitting but certainly not pretty

... unless you're into that sorta' thing

:popcorn:


if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


Prenzlau #53 Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:35 PM

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View PostEl_Mulo, on 07 January 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

 

Everyone think yours posts are too long (Zigfried also, but he's afraid of you).  And they're right.  So the postulate is WRONG.

Also almost all think they're boring,  The rest remain in silence (respectfully).

 

BTW If I think there is no reason to continue trying to carry the battle for some m@$%m's benefit I will quit, and you can't do anything.

 

:trollface:

 

 

 

 

    You don't know Zigfried and he obviously is not afraid of me.

 

    I'm glad I brought this topic forth with my particular "Je ne sais quoi". It exposes the shirkers and quitters and they cannot help themselves because in their minds they are doing nothing wrong. It is just business as usual, and if they ruin other people's battles and drag them down, or condemn them to doom, so be it. They actually see nothing wrong with it because they are only on the team by circumstance. Oh they cry and whine when they lose, or they cannot handle losing, like an anonymous community ace that bailed a quarter of the way through a battle last night when they saw my bomber steam rolling the map. 

 

    You have said nothing Mulo that I don't already know. When you are on the other team, I own you because I know what you are going to do and how you are going to play. So when you drop out, it is because the game was really over before it began, but because of me, not the game, not the planes, not your team mates, it was me. So you fumble around for relevance hoping I notice you, hoping you can get into a conversation or argument with me. Well, I noticed you and you have your role.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


Edited by Prenzlau_Tyrannus, 07 January 2019 - 09:44 PM.

 

 

 

 


Booze_Morgan #54 Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:51 PM

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View PostAce_BOTlistic_Cosmo, on 07 January 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

well boozer,

it's all based in the way I'm approaching the subject

to me this game has devolved from a state with energetic use of teamwork and community...

into a stale, boring and isolated slot machine where you pull the handle, get the results

you may have better understood my point of view had you been involved in the game pre 2.0h.crap

otherwise... yes, you are correct, I was being dramatic in description for effect

:B

 

That made, again, little sense Ace.  You still did not address the many, many factors involved in a multi person game not present in a one person card game.

Captain_Underpants53 #55 Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:57 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 07 January 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

 

    If you would seriously consider some of my ideas and thoughts, in a very short while you could be known as "General_ArmoredPants"!

 

You could command the battlefield and wield real power with fear and intimation being your allies.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 

I like my name the way it is, Slick.  And the word you want is 'intimidation' NOT 'intimation'.  Are you sure you graduated from the Special Needs Middle School?

 

:child:


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Prenzlau #56 Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:06 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 07 January 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

 

I like my name the way it is, Slick.  And the word you want is 'intimidation' NOT 'intimation'.  Are you sure you graduated from the Special Needs Middle School?

 

:child:

 

    Oh forgive me... sometimes I'm writing on the fly or multi tasking. Errors get made.

 

I'm always thankful for the kind hearts who look out for my grammar and spelling, as if any of that is some sort of serious imperfection. I honestly think it irritates other people more.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


 

 

 

 


Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #57 Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:21 PM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 07 January 2019 - 03:51 PM, said:

 

That made, again, little sense Ace.  You still did not address the many, many factors involved in a multi person game not present in a one person card game.

ok, I admitted I was being loose with the actual definitions of the words

are you intentionally feigning confusion?

If necessary I'll map you a color chart to show you the thought line, just ask or better yet just reread

so, back to this

.

huh... this is hardly a multiplayer game

I have been in many 1 vs all bot games

I have been in more 1 v1 player games

I find the norm to be about a 20% human population

how many games have you played, (presently 189)

do you have another account where you have more player experience?

it's hard to get the feeling this is a successful multiplayer game in more than just name?

there are likely 5000 regular players who play at varying amounts

there are 10 tiers and 24 hours in a day

it's a ghost town out there

.

.

in 1.4  (and beyond) we played 9v9 human, no bots

the game was very fun

:amazed:

 


if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


Catch21 #58 Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:41 PM

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View Postsandtiger, on 07 January 2019 - 12:33 AM, said:

...they said in one of the patch  notes if  someone  leaves the bots will try to make up for the player that was lost so the have left the game so they have some kinda thing in place for that as well... not sure how it works or what it dose but it has some mechanic  to help for the lose of players

Yes I've noticed this too. I think the bots just get more verbally aggressive, you know screaming, swearing, threatening to report you, just acting more like regular players really, though it doesn't seem to impact their in-game performance. But that could just be me being paranoid.

View PostBooze_Morgan, on 07 January 2019 - 06:02 PM, said:

Ace, there is very little comparison so Solitaire.  There is actually no analogy between the two.  Solitaire is solitary. WP involves others, and a slew of goals and achievements one never finds in a game involving only one.  This is not just a bad analogy, it is a non-existent one.

JC, where you been lately? Not played any tier 5+ games where it's you and one other human on the other side and he bales out (or arguably more likely the game CTDs him)? Then it surely is a round of solitaire for you in Botworld...



Booze_Morgan #59 Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:48 PM

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We agree on a LOT Ace.  I  have another account where I fly the vast majority of my battles, and I think I got in at 1.4, maybe a bit sooner. MANY, MANY battles, and a great success rate before 2.0.

 

My present win % in this account is close to 70%, but I have vowed to not pay a dime for planes and stay mostly no greater than tier 4, making me an unabashed seal clubber.  I absolutely will never brag about a win rate in this account.  My main account's win% is closer to 50%, greater in the last 2 or 3 months, as I have come to know the game better.  I would say ...... 70 to 75% win rate in the last 90 to 120 days.

 

Anyone who pays any attention will agree it is like a ghost town, 20% human population being generous.  This makes many of our conversations about many things here of little import.  We have screamed at WG for a very long time that the answer to almost all problems is human population.

 

Ace, I remember 15 vs 15.  And if it was less than that on the NA server, one could fly to the USSR and almost always have 15 vs 15. That was absolutely great fun!



Booze_Morgan #60 Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:50 PM

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View PostCatch21, on 07 January 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

JC, where you been lately? Not played any tier 5+ games where it's you and one other human on the other side and he bales out (or arguably more likely the game CTDs him)? Then it surely is a round of solitaire for you in Botworld...

 

Who is JC?







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