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When everyone is RIGHT, no one will be

Freedom Right Moral

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Prenzlau #1 Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:49 PM

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    There was a battle I was in yesterday in which my team was winning decisively half way through. The best player (on the other team) at that point statistically announced they were leaving the battle because it was not going to be a winner. The other human players on that team were basically doomed. In this forum on a different thread I made my personal feelings known to that person who dropped. They tried to explain their reasoning. In the end all the excuses and explaining was reduced to "it was my time and my dime". 

 

    So I took a step back and reflected upon this. Was this player simply exercising their personal liberty and freedom? Even though I might no have liked it, do I have an obligation to respect it? If any player chooses to do things that are detrimental to their team on purpose, is that not their freedom of action? Do players shave any obligation, responsibility or accountability to play well for their team, or even participate fully? 

 

    If a player drops from a battle and it is their choice, of course that will effect the battle. If I for example select a ground attack plane, to which a have far less experience playing than a bomber, I know full well I'm not going to be able to give whatever team I am on the same effectiveness that I could in a bomber. It is however my freedom to pick and fly any plane type I wish. Am I hurting the team I might be on knowing I'm flying at a lower potential? 

 

    We all have freedom of choice. If we agree we all have freedom of choice and we respect other people for having the same freedom of choice, then in a sense every one is "right". When everyone is "right", however, no one is. Total liberty and total freedom creates "moral ambiguity". There is no means to really judge who is right and who is wrong. When I once raised the topic of "team play" and "team players", there were some people who were very definite about wanting to play their game, for themselves and if they help or hurt their team in the process, that is just an unintended side effect. Do players have the right and freedom to play whatever plane they want and play whatever style they want and team play is not required? I would say the vast majority of players would agree. Do you then have the right to cause detriment to your team through your freedom of choice? Ah now it gets complicated.

 

    Are players obligated and responsible for helping each other? Are they obligated to play their best? Are they obligated to stay for the entire battle? Are they expected to play at a certain level of competence? We are still talking about freedom to choose, are we not? If we are not obligated to each other and responsible to each other as players and as team mates, then I have to ask how can we hold WG accountable and responsible when we don't hold ourselves or each other accountable???

 

    We demand greater competence, and accountability from WG and yet we demand none of ourselves? When everyone is "right" there are no wrongs, when everyone is wrong, there are no "rights". So our reality in real life is not made of absolutes, it is made of a million shades of gray. The game we play and everything attached to it is also not made of absolutes. We don't always know what all the "rights" and "wrongs" are. That is why we have the forum and discord, that is why we converse and discuss and yes argue. It is the process of determining how we feel about our ideas when it comes to right and wrong. 

 

   The "rigged" game or not, has been a hot topic lately. Many ideas and thoughts, and yes some finger pointing as well. When you push that battle button, you have to come to terms that you don't know what is going to happen next. The game could give you the black screen or many other bugs could plague you. These things could happen to other people. Players could be having their own issues with their internet or PC. Players could be playing planes they are really potent flying or they could be grinding new planes or plane types. Players could be trying to complete daily missions or missions for planes and thus have slightly different motives versus pure team play. This is before I even mentioned bots or maps, or how the match maker selects planes and players. So many possibilities, so many possible unintentional contributors to any number of potential outcomes. Do we really understand all the factors that we might lump into one word, "rigged"? 

 

    So I ask you fine people, if you support freedom, then you must also accept all the possibilities that spawn from that freedom. What obligations do we have as players? I still tell my daughters "you get what you get and you do not throw a fit". They have heard that one all their lives. You cannot support a greater freedom and then complain about the consequences. You cannot tell someone they are wrong for exercising their freedom when you would want that same freedom. Or maybe not? Are there any lines or boundaries that players do uphold and protect? I have always lived by the standard that if you are not violating the rights of another or causing them harm in some way, then what you do is a valid freedom. 

 

    The other player at the beginning might think that it is indeed their "time and dime", and it might be, but what they are missing is that is also my "time and dime" and the other players on that person's team, that was their "times and dimes" as well. Are we at an absolute here, or are we in a vast sea of gray? There is no right or wrong answers, only opinions. My friends what is the truth here? Can you help me find a solution? All I ask is that you carefully consider your opinions and answers. Thanks.

 

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


Edited by Prenzlau_Tyrannus, 07 January 2019 - 01:35 PM.

 

 

 

 


CorvusCorvax #2 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:01 PM

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While I would like to support the team idea, and mostly do (I don't drop until after the squall line, but I have thought about it a few times), the game is ultimately made up of individuals, who make choices based on their personal ethos.  I think that we should not blame them for making choices that have roots in WG's matchmaking system.

 

It is up to WG to fix the system, not the players' responsibility to prop it up.

 

I, too, often pick aircraft that I do not fly as well as when I am flying my heavy fighters.  I do not feel I must be the best - how am I to learn how to fly the thing if I don't fly it???  :)



Booze_Morgan #3 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:03 PM

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Their time, their dime, flying what one wants when one wants, how one wants, where one wants, and not owing anyone a reason why, in the situation of quitting a game is missing something in my entirely humble opinion, and one quite experienced in pre and post 2.0. (I have another account, of course, with over 25K battles.)

 

This is what I feel is being left out of this:  When you hit battle, you have promised your team your best, even with the upper mentioned five Ws.  When you quit, you have renigged on a responsibility you freely chose to accept.  I feel you have the "right" to run out on your team given the above, but quitting is entirely distasteful and selfish and irresponsible.

 

WIth me, if I know dern well my team will lose at some point, I stay and fight if for no other reason than to increase my individual stats, damage, kills, etc...  I happen to have another reason, and that is the promise I made when I hit battle.  I keep my promises, I stand firm on responsibilities I chose to accept.  To quit is unacceptable to my idea of trustworthiness.  I find it distasteful.

 

Booze


Edited by Booze_Morgan, 06 January 2019 - 08:04 PM.


Prenzlau #4 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:12 PM

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    So a player's obligation and accountability only goes as far as that player's own personal moral and ethical make up? So honorable players will be honorable. Indifferent players will be indifferent, even bland. Disruptive players will disrupt.

 

So when that match maker forms teams, it then is just random chance (?) the type of human player you get on your team (or the other team) with their own morality attached, correct?

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


Edited by Prenzlau_Tyrannus, 06 January 2019 - 08:27 PM.

 

 

 

 


Booze_Morgan #5 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:28 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 06 January 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

    So a player's obligation and accountability only goes as far as that player's own personal moral and ethical make up? So honorable players will be honorable. Indifferent players will be indifferent, even bland. Disruptive players will disrupt.

 

So when that match maker forms teams, it then is just random luck the type of human player you get with their own morality attached, correct?

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 

I'm not a math guy, but I certainly am not aware of any algorithms that can determine morals, trustworthiness, responsibleness (a word?), mood, or if the baby is going to throw a fit or the dog suddenly has to poop as the battle begins, or that can foretell  any other of millions of possible events, attitudes, or other personal feelings that could affect that moment in time's decision.

 

I guess the MM could be told to calculate who quits a percentage of the time and try to put them with other quitters.

 

So it seems there is some luck involved in the humans one fights with and against.  (Are you leading me/us down a road or into a logic trap? I hope not, I am too easy.)

 

Booze


Edited by Booze_Morgan, 06 January 2019 - 08:28 PM.


sandtiger #6 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:29 PM

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SEA of GREY  is my Answer 

and great post by the way

 

i will  say this i have left game for may reason

mostly bugs or  Errors   but i have other reason to

but that would take to long to write 

so SEA OF GREY because we all have different

ways of look at this game

and why we play it.. some people just play to have fun

so play it for there stats as a badge of honor

some do not care at all they just want to fly an shot at other planes  win or lose they hunt them

some of  us play the   game like a treasure hunter  try to get all the new planes

i we all play for different reasons ... so SEA OF GREY 

 

 


Edited by sandtiger, 06 January 2019 - 08:49 PM.


sandtiger #7 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:43 PM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 06 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

Their time, their dime, flying what one wants when one wants, how one wants, where one wants, and not owing anyone a reason why, in the situation of quitting a game is missing something in my entirely humble opinion, and one quite experienced in pre and post 2.0. (I have another account, of course, with over 25K battles.)

 

This is what I feel is being left out of this:  When you hit battle, you have promised your team your best, even with the upper mentioned five Ws.  When you quit, you have renigged on a responsibility you freely chose to accept.  I feel you have the "right" to run out on your team given the above, but quitting is entirely distasteful and selfish and irresponsible.

 

WIth me, if I know dern well my team will lose at some point, I stay and fight if for no other reason than to increase my individual stats, damage, kills, etc...  I happen to have another reason, and that is the promise I made when I hit battle.  I keep my promises, I stand firm on responsibilities I chose to accept.  To quit is unacceptable to my idea of trustworthiness.  I find it distasteful.

 

Booze

 

i am sorry when the game give you a black screen ,,,where you can not see or it spawn you under a map or your get the freeze frame  games ..it become no  fun ... i have bail on games like this ..i can not help my team if any thing i am hurting it by stay because now the enemy  has a plane that is fly flat and  can not    help his team only hurt it... so i well leave every time this happens ... also when i hit battle if i start  get abused by the other human player on my team in a two v two game.. i do not play this game to put up with that ...i well leave them to rot end of story .. because at  that  time it is my time my dine my fun that is be abused  ... i well not take it any more...  i so done with toxic problems in this game ..i well walk away and get in to a different game..  i have stayed in 3v3 with a toxic jerk but that because i could not lever the other person with the toxic one ... most the time even if i am losing i play past the squall because i can get a metal that well give me a token .. 

but i am done being Abused ... anyway  love this topic and all the different ideas an takes on this one  it is totally a SEA OF GREY  

for me


Edited by sandtiger, 06 January 2019 - 08:52 PM.


Azis_ #8 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:49 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 06 January 2019 - 12:12 PM, said:

    So a player's obligation and accountability only goes as far as that player's own personal moral and ethical make up? So honorable players will be honorable. Indifferent players will be indifferent, even bland. Disruptive players will disrupt.

 

So when that match maker forms teams, it then is just random chance (?) the type of human player you get on your team (or the other team) with their own morality attached, correct?

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 

Maybe you should read the EULA ;) Pretty sure it says nothing about committing to stay in game by clicking the battle button.

 

Much like it does not guarantee the game to be with out problems that WG must resolve.

 

I know I have several times had issues and try to leave and reconnect to solve, only to return to a finished battle, or same problem and can no longer participate.

 

If someone announces leaving, whether I agree with it or not, it is their choice, not mine to make for them.


Edited by Azis_, 06 January 2019 - 08:54 PM.

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CorvusCorvax #9 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:52 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 06 January 2019 - 08:12 PM, said:

    So a player's obligation and accountability only goes as far as that player's own personal moral and ethical make up? So honorable players will be honorable. Indifferent players will be indifferent, even bland. Disruptive players will disrupt.

 

So when that match maker forms teams, it then is just random chance (?) the type of human player you get on your team (or the other team) with their own morality attached, correct?

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

It still comes down to the programming choices made by WG.

 

If, for example, the drop to hangar choice is made (which is easily separated from hardware/software/connectivity issues because it requires positive actions from the player), WG could make it possible that the player would be locked out from any hangar activity until the squall line passes.  This coding would require all of 5 minutes to write.  All the questions regarding ethos would be removed.  Of course, if WG would fix matchmaking to help even the battles up some (stop nerfing planes, WG.  Fix the matchmaker first!), then folks might feel like their contributions weren't wasted.



CorvusCorvax #10 Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:55 PM

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View PostAzis_, on 06 January 2019 - 08:49 PM, said:

 

Maybe you should read the EULA ;) Pretty sure it says nothing about committing to stay in game by clicking the battle button.

 

The EULA isn't an end-all, be-all document.  I'm sure it doesn't address "accidentally" killing a team mate using rockets, either.  But most folks would agree that fragging a team mate is, at best, poor sportsmanship.

Azis_ #11 Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:08 PM

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:unsure:

Felt some hot air.....must be fallout from my ignore list.


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CorvusCorvax #12 Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:26 PM

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View PostAzis_, on 06 January 2019 - 09:08 PM, said:

:unsure:

Felt some hot air.....must be fallout from my ignore list.

 

*clutches pearls*

 

Oh, how can I stand your shunning - oh, what will I do with myself????

 

L.M.A.O.



cobra_marksman #13 Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:29 PM

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Please don't  " Cherry Pick " :facepalm:   what was posted  in: The Game is " Not Fixed " Understand the Daily & Special Missions.   :unsure:

The statement :  It's my Time and my Dime   goes to all players gaming on Wowp, because it is their personal TIME :great: and most players here, do Pay to play.:coin:

Every player here has the  Freedom To Play The Game :honoring:  … with-in .. the " Rules of the Game ".

You really do.. :ohmy:... need  to….. :facepalm:  Get over it.. :P.….it's Our ……. Dime  &  Time. :coin:


Edited by cobra_marksman, 06 January 2019 - 09:36 PM.


Captain_Underpants53 #14 Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:33 PM

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View PostBooze_Morgan, on 06 January 2019 - 03:03 PM, said:

Their time, their dime, flying what one wants when one wants, how one wants, where one wants, and not owing anyone a reason why, in the situation of quitting a game is missing something in my entirely humble opinion, and one quite experienced in pre and post 2.0. (I have another account, of course, with over 25K battles.)

 

This is what I feel is being left out of this:  When you hit battle, you have promised your team your best, even with the upper mentioned five Ws.  When you quit, you have renigged on a responsibility you freely chose to accept.  I feel you have the "right" to run out on your team given the above, but quitting is entirely distasteful and selfish and irresponsible.

 

WIth me, if I know dern well my team will lose at some point, I stay and fight if for no other reason than to increase my individual stats, damage, kills, etc...  I happen to have another reason, and that is the promise I made when I hit battle.  I keep my promises, I stand firm on responsibilities I chose to accept.  To quit is unacceptable to my idea of trustworthiness.  I find it distasteful.

 

Booze

 

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BB3_Oregon_Steel #15 Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:42 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 06 January 2019 - 12:01 PM, said:

...  the game is ultimately made up of individuals, who make choices based on their personal ethos.  I think that we should not blame them for making choices that have roots in WG's matchmaking system.

 

It is up to WG to fix the system, not the players' responsibility to prop it up.

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with personal choice.  If you choose the leave a battle, it is you choosing to leave the battle, not WG, not the other players, not little green men from Mars, it's all you.  

 

The problem with a personal choice like this in a team game setting is pretty obvious.  It's not like you are in XBox playing solo where the only person who might get hurt by your actions is you.  No, in a game like WOWPs, your choices impact other players and choosing to bail not only impacts you but also denies those other players whatever chance they might have to either pull in extra personal points or even win the game.

 

Its a simple equation, the moment you hit that "Battle" button, you are not only responsible to yourself, but you have also taken on a share of responsibility to the team and the other players on it.  When you bail, you are shirking that responsibility pure and simple and there's no real way around that one.  Whatever argument you come up with to justify it, all the reasons why you decided to shirk your responsibility, all they are are excuses why you bailed on your team. 

 

Honestly, if you want to bail on people, go out there and find a game where it's just you and the bots where your actions neither help nor hurt anyone else. That way you can bail to your hearts content. 

 

One thing I do know is that WG is watching this kind of behavior.   In WOWS they've instituted a system which punishes players who bail or go afk during a game which has dramatically reduced the number of bail outs, rage quits or any number of other reasons people walk away from their keyboard in the middle of a game.  Maybe the WOWps staff will determine something like this is needed here as well. 

 

One can only hope.

 



sandtiger #16 Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:54 PM

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liked  its my time it my dine it why i used it

this is everyone's own personnel time

one a hole i believe that every one

play or try to play to there best

that people leave a game for the own many many reason

that can even be that the dislike some so much that the well not fly with them

i have hear some leave a match because of it

at the end of the day if some leave a match it is there time that they are spending

not any one else .. plus there could be a lot of reason what a person bail on a match

so why get mad at them ... there only one reason why is see people get super up set at some that

leaves and that is there hunting stats if the lose   mess with that i seem some people come un glued

and lose it ..  most of the time people do not say why there leave because they got drop

a friend, child ,baby ,kitten  bug or error ,, real life get in the way of game all the time for me

i have a grand mother that is really sick so i left games for that reason

there are some may rason why people leave games we could right on this till where all dead

should there be a penalty  for this no because it could be there is an  errors in this game that made a person drop 

it happen to me till wg can find a way to fix this problem  and all the errors bugs an make the game run better i think it is

fine if some leave..

so there is no wrong and to right  is all shades of grey  or at least this is how i feel

 

 

 

 

 



sandtiger #17 Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:26 PM

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i removed my post i did not like it because i can not find the right words  to get my point across :honoring:

Edited by sandtiger, 06 January 2019 - 11:34 PM.


sandtiger #18 Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:35 PM

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good post

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 



CorvusCorvax #19 Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:47 PM

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View PostBB3_Oregon_Steel, on 06 January 2019 - 10:42 PM, said:

 

This has nothing to do with the system

 

 

Of course it does.  If the matchmaker comes up with a system where there is at least some balance, then folks won't just look at the teams list, and then bail.  If you feel that you at least have a chance, then you will stay.  Yes there are teams, but I have found VERY few players who will actually fly in a supporting role - wingman, bomber escort, GAA escort, etc.  Because of that, flying on a "team" where you have very little realistic chance of having much effect on the outcome is very disheartening.   Hey, here I am in a slow light fighter, and my two human partners are a MRF and a down-tiered HF.  On the other side, we have a pair of flighted top-tier GAA and a down-tiered LF.  Well, if these guys have a clue, they are going to have superiority in about 4 minutes.  Our side has a chance, but only if we all stick together.  And my guys aren't doing that, so why should I stay?  If they can't give themselves the best chance to win, then why am I obligated to spend the time in a loss?  Morally, or otherwise?  I sure in hell am not going to carry them. 

 

I already addressed the way WG could discourage such battle dropping, because I happen to personally abide by it - I don't drop until after the squall line.  But I just don't expect others to hold my ethos, nor should anyone expect it. 



vcharng #20 Posted 07 January 2019 - 12:17 AM

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Well yeah it's my time and my dime. So I choose to not play in random battle until they have something that worth my time and dime, namely a PVE mode.

 

The game allows return to hangar prematurely with some penalty (I think so?) so it is not against the rule for that player to leave the battle. What WG forgot to do is to minimize the impact on other players. They remembered to punish the deserters, but forgot to compensate the guys who fought to the last person standing.







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