Jump to content


SB and Ar-2: Why did WG ever even consider adding these planes in their current state?


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

legoboy0401 #1 Posted 06 January 2019 - 12:14 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 932 battles
  • 1,102
  • Member since:
    11-30-2013

These things are awful. Period. End of story. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

 

The question is,(apart from incentive to buy gold to FXP them) why?

 

Why did they have to be this awful?


Remember, remember the 14th of... June, the day of patch 2.05.  Some say it's great end-game content, some say it's horrible, but history will always recall which it actually was.

 

Spoiler

 


Captain_Underpants53 #2 Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:14 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17077 battles
  • 2,114
  • [I_D] I_D
  • Member since:
    04-17-2017

Try using their strengths.  Go low, go fast.  Real low and real fast.  But they do definitely need some cover, more than the other bombers.  Sadly that is usually not forthcoming.  It always surprises me that that multirole or HF is ground pounding while I, in a much more capable ground pounder bomber, am getting spanked a couple thousand feet over their head. But I guess winning isn't everything.

 

Also, NEVER run out of boost.  If you see me in game just send an invite to flight.  I will try one and/or both of these somewhat lackluster bombers to show what I mean.


Edited by Captain_Underpants53, 06 January 2019 - 03:25 AM.

MSgt, USAF, (ret)

LMG #3 Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:19 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2436 battles
  • 1,819
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 05 January 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

Try using their strengths.  Go low, go fast.  Real low and real fast.  But they do definitely need some cover, more than the other bombers.  Sadly that is usually not forthcoming.  It always surprises me that that multirole or HF is ground pounding while I, in a much more capable ground pounder bomber, am getting spanked a couple thousand feet over their head. But I guess winning isn't everything.

 

Also, NEVER run out of boost.  If you see me in game just send an invite to flight.  I will try one and/or both of these somewhat lackluster bombers to show what I mean.

 

Actually, the SB and the Ar-2 were supposed to play as high altitude bombers. It's not until the Pe-2s that you can reliably afford to go lower, and even divebomb :kamikaze: 

 

This is my IL-2 (t). There are many like it, but this one is mine. :child:

egikov #4 Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:42 AM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Alpha tester
  • 2750 battles
  • 202
  • [X3M] X3M
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

Ar-2 could actually dive bomb. Historically some even considered it better than Pe-2, because Ar-2 could carry more bombs inside.

 

In the game Ar-2 has big blinds spots for gunners and it's the worst thing about it; it has a nice heavy machine gun in the front which is nice, it is faster than other bombers and bombs are very accurate.

SB is similar to it, because Ar-2 is based on SB, so the same blind spots for gunners; but it's also fast, has accurate bombs and there is no other non-premium bombers to compare it to.



Captain_Underpants53 #5 Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:19 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17077 battles
  • 2,114
  • [I_D] I_D
  • Member since:
    04-17-2017

My SB is actually one of my two best of the 15 bombers available if you are only considering ground targets per sortie.  It's the very last bomber in terms of planes per sortie, however.

 

The Ar-2 is kinda in the middle of the pack in both categories.


MSgt, USAF, (ret)

Zigfreid #6 Posted 06 January 2019 - 02:48 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 12397 battles
  • 1,551
  • [OWSS] OWSS
  • Member since:
    07-31-2013

These two planes will average 7k to 10k per battle if flown right.

And 10k to 14k in a really good game, there is a slight trick to them.



CorvusCorvax #7 Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:08 PM

    First Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2650 battles
  • 2,656
  • [JG52] JG52
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

To Zig, Legoboy and C_UP:

 

I have actually been flighting up with people to do exactly what you say - cover the bomber.  Don't do anything but cover the bomber, unless there are no threats, then targets of opportunity are fair game.

 

My win rate when escorting bombers is hovering right around 90%.  By choosing a heavy fighter as escort, you can deal with any immediate threats.  If you choose a HF with a lot of expodey stuff (Beaufighter, P-38), you can also do wild weasel (flak suppression) work.  A British MRF with rockets is also an acceptable flightmate - in the MRF role, you do flak suppression.  My win rate as a MRF pilot in the fighter/bomber duo is less, because I am not as good at taking care of flak in the target area.  Oh, another benefit of the MRF is that you can save a rocket, and if there is a ground target with a segment or two left, you can take it and help flip the cap.

 

The problem is that these escort/wild weasel roles take discipline.  You can't just hare off and chase after the first shiny object.  And that is SO tempting.

 

But finding someone who will cover your tail while you bomb - that's gold.  And, if you are any good at all as a bomber, you both get rewarded with a win, and the salvage.  And holy crud, the salvage needed at tier X to upgrade the equipment...



PoliticallyIncorrectName #8 Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:11 PM

    Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7852 battles
  • 85
  • Member since:
    03-21-2013
Those two bombers are only ones I've equipped with improved bombsight in order to be able to fly them higher, 6-8k ft. They are not fast enough to outrun heavy ADA that will shred you and gunner have more blindspots than wargaming. Also, SB's front gunner is good for killing other bomber.

BB3_Oregon_Steel #9 Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:48 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 770 battles
  • 127
  • [I_D] I_D
  • Member since:
    10-26-2015

I really don't have a problem with either one.  Boost to about 2,000 meters and then start bombing.  It's pretty rare to have a fighter actually climb that high to engage you and I've had a lot of success moving to the turret position and blasting away.  Bottom line, it seems that it's usually too much bother for most players and bots to do anything about you up there or to stay with you and engage you long enough to do any real critical damage. 

 

On the other hand, flying low in a GAA style is just asking to be exploderated in short order as they can't handle significant opposition.  Fly above that opposition and these bird begin to shine. 



Dru83 #10 Posted 07 January 2019 - 03:04 AM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 2933 battles
  • 266
  • [X3M] X3M
  • Member since:
    03-27-2016
Well, call me weird, but I really like these two. I sold the SB, because I think it is ever so slightly not quite as good as the Blenheim and I don't need two tier 3 bombers. The better performance at altitude and the credit earning boost from being a premium put the Blenheim over the SB by just a small amount in my opinion. I did keep the AR2 and use it for ground target related daily missions. 8 single drop bombs and ok speed and altitude performance mean this one can do a lot to take over caps. The only time I've ever had trouble is when the occasional human in a heavy feels like coming up to shoot me down.

GonerNL #11 Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:34 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 875 battles
  • 904
  • Member since:
    01-17-2018

View Postegikov, on 06 January 2019 - 06:42 AM, said:

Ar-2 could actually dive bomb. Historically some even considered it better than Pe-2, because Ar-2 could carry more bombs inside.

 

Does the Ar-2 get the bombing circle on the ground in a dive ? I've so far only seen that with the Pe-2 bomber ... (and of course multi-roles and GA).

Seems to me that only bombers with outboard bombs are able to divebomb ; bombs from bomb bay can not clear the aircraft in a steep dive .... ?


Flying on NA and EU servers

hoom #12 Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:06 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 5065 battles
  • 961
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

SB can just go up to 2000m and only be bothered by high altitude AA about 80% of the time.

Occasionally an Fw-57 will lumber up to you but you can mostly just boost away & gain altutude, he may get you eventually but meanwhile you get plenty of work done & he's out of the fight.

 

Ar-2 doesn't have the same luxury though, there are plenty of Heavies able to go higher & faster, you die when one of them decides to do it to you.

So I run just inside Yellow altitude to maximise speed while at least keeping clear of Light/MR fighters, can work well, other times you just get constantly hunted & can't get much done.


C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

legoboy0401 #13 Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:47 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 932 battles
  • 1,102
  • Member since:
    11-30-2013

View Posthoom, on 07 January 2019 - 06:06 PM, said:

SB can just go up to 2000m and only be bothered by high altitude AA about 80% of the time.

Occasionally an Fw-57 will lumber up to you but you can mostly just boost away & gain altutude, he may get you eventually but meanwhile you get plenty of work done & he's out of the fight.

 

Ar-2 doesn't have the same luxury though, there are plenty of Heavies able to go higher & faster, you die when one of them decides to do it to you.

So I run just inside Yellow altitude to maximise speed while at least keeping clear of Light/MR fighters, can work well, other times you just get constantly hunted & can't get much done.

 

Their shared really super weird rear blind spots(I got it wrong, apparently you can only shoot in a very narrow arc to the left and right of the tail and perhaps through the tail, but that's really about it for the top rear gun at least.

Remember, remember the 14th of... June, the day of patch 2.05.  Some say it's great end-game content, some say it's horrible, but history will always recall which it actually was.

 

Spoiler

 


egikov #14 Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:06 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Alpha tester
  • 2750 battles
  • 202
  • [X3M] X3M
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View PostGonerNL, on 07 January 2019 - 03:34 AM, said:

 

Does the Ar-2 get the bombing circle on the ground in a dive ? I've so far only seen that with the Pe-2 bomber ... (and of course multi-roles and GA).

Seems to me that only bombers with outboard bombs are able to divebomb ; bombs from bomb bay can not clear the aircraft in a steep dive .... ?

 

I'm not sure about bombing circle, every plane with bombs have it, but with bombers it's usually inconvenient (because a game doesn't allow high gradient with them). Ar-2 was made with special equipment that allowed it to dive bomb with inside bombs. Pe-2 didn't have that, and could dive bomb using only outboard bombs.

In the game we only have two kinds of bombers - with guns (where pilot controls it, Pe-2, A-26B) and without (only turrets). It does not divide on diving and not diving bombers. Usually, bombers with guns are faster and have lower optimal altitude allowance.



Captain_Underpants53 #15 Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:54 PM

    First Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17077 battles
  • 2,114
  • [I_D] I_D
  • Member since:
    04-17-2017

View Postegikov, on 08 January 2019 - 11:06 AM, said:

 

I'm not sure about bombing circle, every plane with bombs have it, but with bombers it's usually inconvenient (because a game doesn't allow high gradient with them). Ar-2 was made with special equipment that allowed it to dive bomb with inside bombs. Pe-2 didn't have that, and could dive bomb using only outboard bombs.

In the game we only have two kinds of bombers - with guns (where pilot controls it, Pe-2, A-26B) and without (only turrets). It does not divide on diving and not diving bombers. Usually, bombers with guns are faster and have lower optimal altitude allowance.

 

The Ar-2 can dive bomb.
MSgt, USAF, (ret)

GonerNL #16 Posted 09 January 2019 - 12:31 PM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 875 battles
  • 904
  • Member since:
    01-17-2018

View Postegikov, on 08 January 2019 - 05:06 PM, said:

It does not divide on diving and not diving bombers. 

 

I might be wrong, but I think the game does make a difference between level and dive bombers ; the latter have an aiming circle (on terrain) in a dive (just like MR). Also on level bombers, the game does not allow you to drop bombs in a dive (they turn red).


Edited by GonerNL, 09 January 2019 - 12:34 PM.

Flying on NA and EU servers

legoboy0401 #17 Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:34 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 932 battles
  • 1,102
  • Member since:
    11-30-2013

View PostGonerNL, on 09 January 2019 - 04:31 AM, said:

 

I might be wrong, but I think the game does make a difference between level and dive bombers ; the latter have an aiming circle (on terrain) in a dive (just like MR). Also on level bombers, the game does not allow you to drop bombs in a dive (they turn red).

 

Can confirm Ar-2 can dive bomb. Can also confirm that I suck at dive-bombing.

Remember, remember the 14th of... June, the day of patch 2.05.  Some say it's great end-game content, some say it's horrible, but history will always recall which it actually was.

 

Spoiler

 


LMG #18 Posted 10 January 2019 - 05:31 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2436 battles
  • 1,819
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Postlegoboy0401, on 09 January 2019 - 10:34 PM, said:

Can confirm Ar-2 can dive bomb. Can also confirm that I suck at dive-bombing.

 

At what angle? You usually need about 40° or more to be accurate when divebombing and to properly see the bombing reticle. At 30° or less you have to manually pan the camera to see where the bomb will land, and even then it doesn't quite improve the accuracy as much as you'd want :amazed:


This is my IL-2 (t). There are many like it, but this one is mine. :child:

GonerNL #19 Posted 10 January 2019 - 10:27 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 875 battles
  • 904
  • Member since:
    01-17-2018

I also tried Ar-2 yesterday and indeed, it can divebomb !! Got the reticle in a steep dive (about 45 ?)

Problem is that it's pretty slow. In a Pe-2 you can at least try to run away after bombing, but the Ar-2 is a sitting duck.

 

Will have to try some other bombers, as I remember that on some the bombs turn red and no reticle appears in a dive ...


Flying on NA and EU servers

legoboy0401 #20 Posted 11 January 2019 - 01:30 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 932 battles
  • 1,102
  • Member since:
    11-30-2013

View PostLMG, on 09 January 2019 - 09:31 PM, said:

 

At what angle? You usually need about 40° or more to be accurate when divebombing and to properly see the bombing reticle. At 30° or less you have to manually pan the camera to see where the bomb will land, and even then it doesn't quite improve the accuracy as much as you'd want :amazed:

 

About 45. My problem is though is

 

View PostGonerNL, on 10 January 2019 - 02:27 AM, said:

I also tried Ar-2 yesterday and indeed, it can divebomb !! Got the reticle in a steep dive (about 45 ?)

Problem is that it's pretty slow. In a Pe-2 you can at least try to run away after bombing, but the Ar-2 is a sitting duck.

 

Will have to try some other bombers, as I remember that on some the bombs turn red and no reticle appears in a dive ...

 

this. It can't run away, and is a giant fighter magnet, and with utterly useless defenses + the universal turret nerfs(the aiming speed nerf and the max range damage nerf) it's basically just free xp and credits for the enemy, and as it usually gets shot down while still in the cap, free capture points, too. :(


Remember, remember the 14th of... June, the day of patch 2.05.  Some say it's great end-game content, some say it's horrible, but history will always recall which it actually was.

 

Spoiler

 





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users