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are games predetermined?

game fixing

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Poll: are the games fixed? (43 members have cast votes)

Do you think games are predetermined?

  1. yes (20 votes [46.51%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 46.51%

  2. no (23 votes [53.49%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 53.49%

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comealong1 #1 Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:00 AM

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What do you think?.. Are games fixed?

GonerNL #2 Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:15 AM

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In a way ; yes ...

Matchmaker is so bad at balancing that in a lot of battles one team is at a disadvantage right from the start. I hardly get in a fun, challenging battle lately. Only roflstomps where one team is just obliterated by superior planes/pilots/bots that are all put in one team for some reason. I don't mind defeats, but I would like to have a chance to win. My WR (not important, but at least it indicates how much you win/lose) on the EU server over the past week sank from 53.20 to 52.80 ... with >5000 battles that takes a lot of defeats.

Anyway, game fixing sounds like they do it on purpose and in this case it'is just plain horrible balancing.  All IMHO ... (and yes, I'm a very mediocre pilot, but I refuse to believe that of 24 pilots/bots I'm responsible for all these defeats)

 


Edited by GonerNL, 04 January 2019 - 11:24 AM.

Flying on NA and EU servers

Captain_Underpants53 #3 Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:18 AM

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I wish the poll had a 'sometimes' option.  I would have selected that.  But whether a person believes they are predetermined or not. the question only arises because of the secrecy and lack of info about the MM.  What appears on the surface to be perfectly baffling results might be easily understood with some explanation.

 

Unfortunately we ain't gonna get that explanation.

 

:facepalm:


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comealong1 #4 Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:37 AM

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Sometimes is a yes... Either they do or don't.

 



blindfoId #5 Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:56 AM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 04 January 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

I wish the poll had a 'sometimes' option.  I would have selected that.  But whether a person believes they are predetermined or not. the question only arises because of the secrecy and lack of info about the MM.  What appears on the surface to be perfectly baffling results might be easily understood with some explanation.

 

Unfortunately we ain't gonna get that explanation.

 

:facepalm:

 

A while time ago there was introduced the blog article about MM system written as respond to the community request, not sure if you've seen it. 

Captain_Underpants53 #6 Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:05 PM

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View PostblindfoId, on 04 January 2019 - 06:56 AM, said:

 

A while time ago there was introduced the blog article about MM system written as respond to the community request, not sure if you've seen it. 

 

Thank you.  But inexplicable battle results are not addressed in that blog.
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Captain_Underpants53 #7 Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:08 PM

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View Postcomealong1, on 04 January 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

Sometimes is a yes... Either they do or don't.

 

 

Well, I meant that I do see some battles that seem predetermined.  But they are in the minority.  I don't understand many battle results however,
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_A_3_ #8 Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:10 PM

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View PostblindfoId, on 04 January 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

 

A while time ago there was introduced the blog article about MM system written as respond to the community request, not sure if you've seen it. 

 

Comments disabled lol



Captain_Underpants53 #9 Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:41 PM

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View Postcomealong1, on 04 January 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

Sometimes is a yes... Either they do or don't.

 

 

Let me explain my point of view using an actual example.  Only the names have been changed to protect the (not so) innocent.

 

So I enter a battle.  I am the only player on my side.  On the other side I see a flight, Punkin' and Melon, the Head hunting brothers.  So right off the bat it's two against my one.  Still doable, just harder.  But wait!  There's more!  They are both in a higher tier plane than my poor bomber.  Now I might have real problems.  Can it possibly get any worse?!  Well, in a word YES.

 

They are both flying Heavy Fighters!  Well, from my point of view, this ONE battle was predetermined from the jump.  All I can do is my best and die as valiantly (and frequently) as I can.  Just my definition of a (thankfully rare) predetermined outcome.


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comealong1 #10 Posted 04 January 2019 - 02:48 PM

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I see what you mean & I see a lot of those games… But I try to play more than most, but not as much since 2.0.

Edited by comealong1, 04 January 2019 - 02:49 PM.


PoliticallyIncorrectName #11 Posted 04 January 2019 - 04:35 PM

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not predetermined

 

also not predetermined

 

 

 



Prenzlau #12 Posted 04 January 2019 - 04:54 PM

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    PoliticallyIncorrectName is an elite pilot/player.

 

    Just a observation on my part, but is it possible that players who think they impact the outcome of battles almost always will say that battles are not predetermined. I cannot say how many players who struggle or are still working on their skills and aptitude that might conclude that the battles are predetermined simply because they feel less control over the battle. 

 

    An impact player or a very good player who knows they have greater control in the outcome of any particular battle would not agree to predeterminism because they determine to a greater degree the outcome. There is some logic here.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


 

 

 

 


BB3_Oregon_Steel #13 Posted 04 January 2019 - 06:09 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 04 January 2019 - 05:41 AM, said:

 

Let me explain my point of view using an actual example.  Only the names have been changed to protect the (not so) innocent.

 

So I enter a battle.  I am the only player on my side.  On the other side I see a flight, Punkin' and Melon, the Head hunting brothers.  So right off the bat it's two against my one.  Still doable, just harder.  But wait!  There's more!  They are both in a higher tier plane than my poor bomber.  Now I might have real problems.  Can it possibly get any worse?!  Well, in a word YES.

 

They are both flying Heavy Fighters!  Well, from my point of view, this ONE battle was predetermined from the jump.  All I can do is my best and die as valiantly (and frequently) as I can.  Just my definition of a (thankfully rare) predetermined outcome.

 

Hi Cap :honoring:

 

I think there is a difference in whether that matchmaker is constantly creating even matches and something that is predetermined.  

 

Predetermination general requires someone taking actions to create a situation wherein the result is determined in advance.  Generally this requires an actual person making a decision to purposely tilt the balance of the game either towards or away from a particular player or group of players to such an extent that the result is a foregone conclusion. 

 

Matchmaking systems can, unintentionally, create unbalanced battles.  When this happens it is a random failure in the conditions the Matchmaker uses to fill our both sides in a battle and do so equally.  It may be that if this happens often enough, the game designers will tend to modify the matchmaking to eliminate unforeseen problems with how the match maker makes it's determinations

 

Weaknesses in the Matchmaking system however, tend to be unintentional rather than people purposefully taking actions to predetermine the end result of any particular battle.  .



ClosedCoffin #14 Posted 04 January 2019 - 07:27 PM

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View PostPoliticallyIncorrectName, on 04 January 2019 - 04:35 PM, said:

 

not predetermined

 

also not predetermined

 

 

P.I.N. I'm presuming both these battles were wins for your team.

Is this assumption correct?

I've always wondered if there is a way to determine the winning team by looking at just this window in Battle results but I'm just not seeing it.

Thx


Edited by ClosedCoffin, 04 January 2019 - 07:34 PM.


PoliticallyIncorrectName #15 Posted 04 January 2019 - 07:53 PM

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View PostPrenzlau_Tyrannus, on 04 January 2019 - 04:54 PM, said:

    PoliticallyIncorrectName is an elite pilot/player.

 

    Just a observation on my part, but is it possible that players who think they impact the outcome of battles almost always will say that battles are not predetermined. I cannot say how many players who struggle or are still working on their skills and aptitude that might conclude that the battles are predetermined simply because they feel less control over the battle. 

 

    An impact player or a very good player who knows they have greater control in the outcome of any particular battle would not agree to predeterminism because they determine to a greater degree the outcome. There is some logic here.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus

 

That was (obviously) bad attempt at sarcasm...

At the beginning of the battle the outcome was clear... 

 

View PostClosedCoffin, on 04 January 2019 - 07:27 PM, said:

P.I.N. I'm presuming both these battles were wins for your team.

Is this assumption correct?

I've always wondered if there is a way to determine the winning team by looking at just this window in Battle results but I'm just not seeing it.

Thx

 

both totally humiliating defeats



Captain_Underpants53 #16 Posted 04 January 2019 - 08:05 PM

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View PostBB3_Oregon_Steel, on 04 January 2019 - 01:09 PM, said:

 

Hi Cap :honoring:

 

I think there is a difference in whether that matchmaker is constantly creating even matches and something that is predetermined.  

 

Predetermination general requires someone taking actions to create a situation wherein the result is determined in advance.  Generally this requires an actual person making a decision to purposely tilt the balance of the game either towards or away from a particular player or group of players to such an extent that the result is a foregone conclusion. 

 

Matchmaking systems can, unintentionally, create unbalanced battles.  When this happens it is a random failure in the conditions the Matchmaker uses to fill our both sides in a battle and do so equally.  It may be that if this happens often enough, the game designers will tend to modify the matchmaking to eliminate unforeseen problems with how the match maker makes it's determinations

 

Weaknesses in the Matchmaking system however, tend to be unintentional rather than people purposefully taking actions to predetermine the end result of any particular battle.  .

 

I guess I think that the predetermined part IS done by the MM, not by any conscious person.  To me, in other words, it makes no difference if a person or the MM sets up the conditions for a sure loss.  Either way it is predetermined.
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Prenzlau #17 Posted 04 January 2019 - 08:41 PM

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View PostPoliticallyIncorrectName, on 04 January 2019 - 01:53 PM, said:

 

That was (obviously) bad attempt at sarcasm...

At the beginning of the battle the outcome was clear... 

 

 

both totally humiliating defeats

 

    Oh, I get it. But I think my logic still stands about attitudes. 

 

Once any battle starts, once the timer winds down and the planes are in motion, everything in my mind turns into probabilities. For humans, every action and every decision may or may not lower or raise probabilities. Now you can post as you did what seemed to be lop sided match making, and just like sports you could compute some starting odds based on all available information, but in the end it is just a (guess) probability as to which team might win. So lets say for example, the other team has an 80% chance to win and your team only has 20%. Playing only one battle, it might seem predetermined since the much larger odds for one team will most likely play out. If you played the exact same battle 10 times or 100 times, eventually your 20% team would, someway and somehow win. The starting odds for any battle, which we don't know, would also fluctuate during the battle. A human player might have the battle of their lives and do really well, or they might have bug issues, or poor internet. The game itself might mess with the odds during battle by suspicious occurrences or bots behaving productively or unproductively. 

 

    Have you ever lost a battle you felt like you should not have? Have you ever won a battle you did not think you had a chance? Probably. It is human nature to search for answers when we lose and accept winning with little exploration. I'm sorry you are probably a very smart person, if I were to play those odds and I don't mean this to be a lecture pointed at you, but anyone to read. Sometimes you just cannot beat the match making odds, not in one battle. I cannot believe in predetermination though, because even if the possibilities are small they still exist. 

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


 

 

 

 


cddlbunny #18 Posted 04 January 2019 - 09:03 PM

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It is my hope that this does not go the way of Clanks where the odds of winning are stated at the top before the game starts. I think that this goes down to the skill of the players and the composition of the opposing side. You score lower for killing ADA (air defense aircraft). There was one battle where I got more assist than kills. No, I do not think these are predetermined. As they stated in the blog, at the lower tiers, the bots are novices, when you get into the upper tiers, they are veterans and use that skill base. Humans decide where and what course the battle will take, bots to a certain extent but no as much as the humans.

GalileoAstra #19 Posted 04 January 2019 - 09:19 PM

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With all due respect Prenzlau_Tyrannus, you do not normally fly without a teammate, randoms for singles and pairs are different world. It is hard/impossible to defeat a average pair with good comms by a no comms player (as it should be in real world but not arcade that does not take comms into account).

 

I had 3-4 battle losses with 14+k scores yesterday, chest full of medals and candy galore, did it matter how well me or my team did, not at all, if most of them the other humans on my team had 10k+ scores, opposite team had less points by sizable margin but still won. I do not know why ( their bots were that awesome I guess).

 

In upper level the differences between tiers is so dramatic that I have no idea how to fight LVL9 expert in LVL8 grinder 1 on 1 (only humans in fight, or better yet 1 LVL9+1LVL8 vs 1 LVL8). 

It boils down to lack of players IMHO. WG software cannot handle low player number fights.

 

To be honest if I did not need materials, I would not care, my most challenging opponents are on other side winning team makes it more interesting/best fights.

 



Prenzlau #20 Posted 04 January 2019 - 09:44 PM

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View PostGalileoAstra, on 04 January 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

With all due respect Prenzlau_Tyrannus, you do not normally fly without a teammate, randoms for singles and pairs are different world. It is hard/impossible to defeat a average pair with good comms by a no comms player (as it should be in real world but not arcade that does not take comms into account).

 

I had 3-4 battle losses with 14+k scores yesterday, chest full of medals and candy galore, did it matter how well me or my team did, not at all, if most of them the other humans on my team had 10k+ scores, opposite team had less points by sizable margin but still won. I do not know why ( their bots were that awesome I guess).

 

In upper level the differences between tiers is so dramatic that I have no idea how to fight LVL9 expert in LVL8 grinder 1 on 1 (only humans in fight, or better yet 1 LVL9+1LVL8 vs 1 LVL8). 

It boils down to lack of players IMHO. WG software cannot handle low player number fights.

 

To be honest if I did not need materials, I would not care, my most challenging opponents are on other side winning team makes it more interesting/best fights.

 

 

    Sometimes I can be found in a flight, sure. Lately I have been in demand to fly with. I do however fly many flights solo and grind planes, not always bombers. Every battle is situational. Yes flights of players can be formidable but just the same sometimes there is a flight on the other side that equalizes things. No matter what a human players skill and aptitude is, every action matters, every thing a person does in battle could be a factor in the result. Just like my story about the inexperienced player in the P-38F who I destroyed twice with my Ju 88a but their efforts to occupy and disrupt my bombing really won the game for their team. On paper you cannot see how valuable their actions were because they did not kill me, but at a critical point in the battle I was fighting them off and not bombing. My team lost by 2 points. 

 

    People get too caught up on personal points and kills and players contribute sometimes in really valuable ways that don't get translated for their contribution. So many factors go into each battle, and unless you watch each battle in slow motion and analyze every little event, you really cannot understand all the chains of actions and events. 

 

    Please do not attribute my ability or success especially in bombers to being flighted with another person. I'm a load to deal with alone as well.

 

Prenzlau_Tyrannus


Edited by Prenzlau_Tyrannus, 04 January 2019 - 09:45 PM.

 

 

 

 





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