191 replies to this topic

[Zoney45]

One last observation before I beat this horse into oblivion. I just finished another loss where I ended first-place on my team with around 8600 points, grade-5 status in a tier V heavy fighter -- around 33 percent better than the first-place competitor whose team won. The observation is this -- a map with two mining plants where my team seemed inundated with fighters and/or whose aforementioned "style of play" (not my terminology) appeared incapable of the concept of ground-attack. We got trounced in short order. Never even came close to taking a mining plant. My plane was the French SE100 and not exactly outfitted for ground attack -- better to do GA with a multi-role than that flying brick with cannon (a plane I actually enjoy under the right circumstances). Leastways you're not well advised to solo a mining-plant capture in that thing.

 

Again, the weirdness and obvious imbalance seem to be exacerbated within the last 48-72 hours.

Edited by Zoney45, 07 December 2018 - 10:35 AM.

[Zoney45]

Captain_Underpants53, on 07 December 2018 - 09:41 AM, said:

I hate to see them tinkering with the MM.  Every time they do, it just seems to get a bit crazier. 

 

I had four battles today (yes I fly a lot) with just me and 23 bots.  All four battles were complete and utter blowouts.  Two I won and two I lost. 

 

If the battles were at least close, win or lose, I would say they are doing something right.  As it is.............................

 

So it's noticeable, not just this new recruit. The Captain has a prodigious number of battles under his belt.

Edited by Zoney45, 07 December 2018 - 10:15 AM.

[StoptheViolins]

MM Really needs to take into consideration Specialist aircraft since having 5-6 on one team vs 0 on the other usually creates an immensely unbalanced match.

[blindfoId]

Here's the article: https://worldofwarpl...matchmaker_209/

[Zinro]

blindfoId, on 07 December 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

Here's the article: https://worldofwarpl...matchmaker_209/

 

That's a swell write up of the match maker.  Now can we have one that describes bot behavior and why a match consisting of minimal human players ends in a landslide when the humans just do an average performance?  If bots are programmed with the same coding, wouldn't it stand to reason that they perform equally on both sides causing the match NOT to be one sided?  Also, why on earth does WG program 1-2 bots to go to the farthest sector away from the spawn point at the start of the match?

[Captain_Underpants53]

blindfoId, on 07 December 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

Here's the article: https://worldofwarpl...matchmaker_209/

 

I beg your pardon but the part about karma not playing a part in the MM is absolute hogwash.

[GonerNL]

it describes how MM 'tries' or 'aims' to create balance ... sound nice in theory, but we talk about the reality we encounter every battle.

[vcharng]

Captain_Underpants53, on 07 December 2018 - 09:41 AM, said:

I hate to see them tinkering with the MM.  Every time they do, it just seems to get a bit crazier. 

 

I had four battles today (yes I fly a lot) with just me and 23 bots.  All four battles were complete and utter blowouts.  Two I won and two I lost. 

 

If the battles were at least close, win or lose, I would say they are doing something right.  As it is.............................

 

Wat? people actually lose in single player (you + 23 bots) games? Were you flying bombers?

I mean, I've been having these for weeks and I've lost like 2 of them. Both were when the bots' actual performance were extremely imbalanced AND the map layout is disadvantageous to my aircraft class.

And even when I do I would still take those PVE games over PVP games any day, as at least I know I'm not gonna be hunted by human players (plural, in a coordinated and deliberate manner) the whole game, and can instead actually fly and fight.

[trikke]

my wish for everyone for this holiday season is that the WR stat would be removed without explanation, just like the player numbers 'stat' was removed 

 

then we all could just relax and enjoy flying again... 

 

could you live without it?     could the RU server live without it?

[GonerNL]

vcharng, on 08 December 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

 people actually lose in single player (you + 23 bots) games?

 

Depends on which tier .. bots from tier VII and up are ridiculous. One cannon shot Russians (Yak) and 1 rocket hit Germans (BV).

[Zoney45]

Whatever the case may be -- it's not just to do with bots and it's not just to do with specialist versions.

 

Here's some basic player W/L stats from a loss I just took. Three human players on each side, IIRC everyone had a track record (none were those weird inexplicable occurrences of Tier-V non-premium craft where the user had all of seven or eight missions in their history -- on a side note can somebody explain that to me?).

 

NO specialist planes were involved in this match.

 

my team
victory % (tier)
56.1 (V) -- me flying the Venom which IMHO barely makes tier V (it's basically a Bristol 146 with square wings and a few ho-hum buffs but generates more credits)
46.86 (V)
39.04 (V)
the rest were bots

other team
victory % (tier)

59.5 (V)
57.4 (V)
42.1 (IV)
the rest were bots

 

Now I'm not saying it's crazy unfair but honestly now.... Two players on the other team with better win records than the most-winning player on my team (me), and their most-losing player better than my team's most-losing player.

 

I also had a couple losses preceding this where I screen-grabbed the results thinking "now what did I do to deserve this? -- win a few in a row?" Feels like one of those handicap penalties or "scalable" deals or something. Win a few and lose all your first-round draft picks.

 

I hate to keep wailing on this poor deceased horse but when the devs put up a special bulletin trying to smooth down the players, then you know it's an issue. It really does get old busting your butt and you're stuck with an absolute do-nothing team that can't take and hold a single sector without you being there.

 

I know they're concerned with forming matches in an expeditious manner but I'd rather be put on hold till their algorithm can concoct an equitable balance of players and various types of craft.

Edited by Zoney45, 09 December 2018 - 11:01 AM.

[GonerNL]

Zoney45, on 09 December 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

I know they're concerned with forming matches in an expeditious manner

 

I really doubt that ... the blog more or less informs us that we're imagining things.

[Captain_Underpants53]

GonerNL, on 09 December 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

 

I really doubt that ... the blog more or less informs us that we're imagining things.

 

I had a battle yesterday of 2 VS 2 where both the Red players were a higher tier than me or my team mate.  Reading their imaginative blog, I wouldn't think this possible.  Possibly because they were in a flight?

 

[vcharng]

GonerNL, on 08 December 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

 

Depends on which tier .. bots from tier VII and up are ridiculous. One cannon shot Russians (Yak) and 1 rocket hit Germans (BV).

 

Well, I don't think you get single player games in anywhere lower than T7 though. So yeah, I am aware of the bot level at T7+ and I mean it, I've only lost like twice when flying with 23 bots, every other game (and that means 50+ of them) were easy wins.

[vcharng]

Captain_Underpants53, on 09 December 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

 

I had a battle yesterday of 2 VS 2 where both the Red players were a higher tier than me or my team mate.  Reading their imaginative blog, I wouldn't think this possible.  Possibly because they were in a flight?

 

 

Yes, this is because of flights.

Now you understand why I once argued "flight equals cheat"...

[Soylent_Red_Isnt_People]

GonerNL, on 08 December 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

... sound nice in theory, but we talk about the reality we encounter every battle.

Zoney45, on 09 December 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Whatever the case may be -- it's not just to do with bots and it's not just to do with specialist versions.

 

Now I'm not saying it's crazy unfair but honestly now....

I know they're concerned with forming matches in an expeditious manner but I'd rather be put on hold till their algorithm can concoct an equitable balance of players and various types of craft.

ditto, just so much THIS ^^:

 

I queued an VIII five times last night, and every single battle (5 out of 5) was a team stack for either red or blue, with grossly mismatched WR pilots - which seems anything but the randomness it should be.

In only one of those matches was there a flight, paired specialized bombers, which meant blue curbstomped the reds for a win in no time flat; my (5) kills and some number of assists netted me a whole (2) salvaged parts.

 

I placed first at least once, second at least once, and third in most of the other matches - four of those matches were losses (upon queue really).

Obviously none were close battles, instead one team would snag a cap or two but by the halfway mark (if not sooner) the opposition had taken/retaken most if not all of the capture areas.

 

Two battles were with the central missile base on the northern winter map, one on Plateau (2x Airbase + 2x Command Center), and the others on Rome including an asymmetrical where red spawned at the CC right off.

I don't often get shot down three times in any match, but last night it was the norm with every plane; usually I manage just one, sometimes two, and occasionally zero respawns.

 

 

I got offered a flight but by that time I was pretty fed up with the game, wished that player glhf, then stepped away.

After a breather I decided to try one more and queued a IX heavy I usually fly pretty well, getting dumped into an all bot battle on Pacific (2x Command Center, 2x Airfield).

Right from first capture area I had two red bots (VIIIs I think) chasing me the rest of match, some sort of BV and a J7 that stayed up with my Banshee past 2000 plus meters.

 

I'd get them down to as low as (10) health and the friendly/neutral ADA bots would stop shooting at them or be unable to hit them.

- Nor would my own bots or the friendly/neutral AAA bother to help kill them on such low health, but as soon as I even got the paint scratched I'd get two to three or more planes and AAA shooting at me.

 

I outscored my team but didn't place first from having spent so much time dodging/running from those two bots, and netted maybe half a dozen parts, but yet again neither of the rare types needed for everything.

 

 

I'm only an average, possibly above-average pilot, with some (improved) equipment on maybe three of my tier VIII or higher planes out of less than four dozen overall across all tiers in my hanger.

Six matches with no real progress towards anything for "dailies", missions, equipment, specialization, modules, or pilots; it's so futile that it's boring, and such a session not being uncommon makes playing the game pointless.

 

 

I almost didn't even play last night, because Friday the hangar was laggy as all get out and I late-loaded into every match at a point where my plane was almost to the center.

Maybe I just need to stop bothering with anything on the weekends for this title, as otherwise I'm getting close to just uninstalling to try and find something a lot more fun on even a semi-regular basis.

 

 

 

TL;DR -

I don't think any player is asking, or ever has made the point, that they should be able to queue with the expectation of winning every battle.

However, it shouldn't be an unreasonable assumption for a player of any skill less than overwhelmingly elite to at least have a chance of helping their team get a win, instead of having already lost upon queuing.

 

Players of MMORPGs, and probably a few MOBAs as well, who try and zerg beyond the capabilities of their own and in-game limitations spend a lot of time retrieving their corpse and/or losing credits on equipment repairs.

But, once they get in tune with a title they can seek out a level of challenge appropriate to their ability to play, current level of interest, and/or time available to queue.

 

However, whether intentional or not the setup of every WG title actively creates the potential for a repeated curbstomp of individual players, if not entire teams.

The player churn over time, overall population numbers of each game when compared to competitors (if any), and low average number of battles played per session reflect this design choice.

Edited by Soylent_Red_Isnt_People, 10 December 2018 - 04:57 AM.

[Perrigrino]

blindfoId, on 07 December 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

Here's the article: https://worldofwarpl...matchmaker_209/

Just had my first go thorugh the article, and as predicted, more questions than answers; 

 

Initial thoughts, 

 

1. The opening paragraph seems a little antagonistic. " It is commonly considered to be the main source of undeserved wins for a rival team or the bitter losses for any individual player, and regularly inspires guesswork as to how it actually works that tends to evolve into full-blown conspiracy theories", but nevertheless, speak to the truth.

 

We the players did not create the veil of secrecy, or ask the Chief to use the "Cone of Silence"  ( for those not old enuf- from the hit TV Series GET SMART) during any discussion before or since. In fact I was hoping for an open an honest dialogue. I see efforts made in that direction but please remind the Devs that, for example, Karma, which only until this Article on MM, was understood to be in effect: ( https://blog.worldof...asses-and-bots/   from February 2, 2017 ). For Karma to have worked, player Profiles were required- to say otherwise is insulting. I appreciate the fact that the Devs admit to NOT updating the Blog for 2 years, and therefore should remind themselves that one of the reasons for magical mystical mystery tour of MM is largely due to their negligence. But then I suppose more important things got in the way, and compared to the other Titles, like WoWShips where Updates and Patch Notes and Staff Videos occur more frequently, while we the Pilots of WoWP have to accept that we are the orphans of the WGaming world, know what to expect, and keep hope that may change someday -soon, or not.

 

2. It was nice to see the disclosure of some of the assumptions that go into building the model, design, architecture... of Match Maker.ie, Flight v 1 is unbalanced. Difference in Tiers >1 in a battle can lead to imbalance (here's a detailed example: if one flight included an attack aircraft and a fighter, while the other two players are piloting two “heavies”, the matchmaker will add a PvP aircraft to team A and a PvE aircraft to team B. When doing this, it will additionally consider the totals of aircraft tiers in these flights and try to equalize them with single players.). There is a lot of discussion amongst the Devs as to HOW to balance the game. Balance =FUN, or a least that is the basic idea.  In fact it is very good for players to see that a lot of effort goes into trying/attempting to create balance. The degree to which that is successful, I believe (and please correct me if I am wrong) is measure through the data that is gathered from all the servers? What does that data show? can you share with us? What other assumptions are being tested? 

 

3. Some of the assumptions likely need more work, as witnessed by the numerous pilots who experience being "down-tiered" (put in the lower tier of the battle group) successively and continuously.

 

4. Perhaps disable the ability for Pilots to FLIGHT with another in a Tier differential greater than 1 ? Said differently, I would not be able to Flight  my Tier V Spitfire with a friend whose in a Tier VII Yak.

 

5. Wait times in Ships Co-op, for example, are no greater than 30 sec. Perhaps implement/adopt an algorithm that resembles this more?

 

6. Also matching of vehicles. I am no expert but what I see happening in MM in Ships is very different when it comes to Planes with respect to PVE.

 

7. When it comes to the subsets of levels of difficulty as set out in the Patent, it appears that this was accomplished by having Bots of varying levels of difficulty- Beginner, Warrior, Veteran?

 

8. Having lower-tiered Flight v up-tiered flight, is not balanced. ( ie., T5 flight vT6 flight does not work very well) but curious as to what your data shows? Because as you mentioned in Questions To Devs, they are analyzing and compiling the data as we go. Too bad some of this wasn't tested before being implemented, or was it? What kind of test? Or is this just experimentation as we go along ( which in all fairness, sometimes economics dictates social behaviour- guessing not enough money for public testing?)?

 

9. This needs a little clarification: Step 3. The matchmaker balances the teams using bots based on aircraft tiers and additionally makes their class composition as close as possible. It aims to make team aircraft tier totals equal and make the number of aircraft of each class (not class group anymore!) as close as possible to a desired ratio that we set for each game mode. 

Particularly the part about "class group"?

 

10. Is this why some battles in Conquest will have 3 human Bombers on one side and none on the other, or Ground Attack in lieu of Bombers? This too has led to experiences of imbalance.

 

That's all I got for the moment. Thank you for your help in trying to bring about a shared understanding. Thanks to the Developers for providing us with some more helpful insights, even though late, better than nothing at all. Now if we could just keep the dialogue going... 

 

[bradk62]

trikke, on 08 December 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

my wish for everyone for this holiday season is that the WR stat would be removed without explanation, just like the player numbers 'stat' was removed 

 

then we all could just relax and enjoy flying again... 

 

could you live without it?     could the RU server live without it?

 

The Win Rate is the "default" stat that the rankings are sorted by on the HOF.  By that I rank in the mid 300s.  Click on "MXP" and I'm 101.  Pick your poison.  Why is win-rate the primary judging criteria?

 

18 of the top 20 HOF list win more by killing/damaging ground targets than aircraft (and that trend goes quite far down the list).  Is it easier to win flying GA?  How about being able to sort these lists by aircraft type for each player?  Who is the best "Light Fighter Pilot"?  (not me, by the way)

 

 

 

[Soylent_Red_Isnt_People]

bradk62, on 09 December 2018 - 10:31 PM, said:

Is it easier to win flying GA?

For 2.0, definitely - before I took a year off from the game I used to encounter Oliviako regularly at tiers VII/VIII on up during the times of day I played.

 

She'd usually be in some sort of attack aircraft, always in a flight, and either one of them would basically insta-nuke you at any range once they saw a player controlled plane trying to contest a capture point.

If both were in heavies, or either other fighter type, they'd just hunt you down the whole match unless you somehow managed to deliberately avoid them.

 

Eventually I just dropped match when I saw them on red, as I was quite often the lone human on a team versus that flight and there was no point in trying to fly against them for the time & frustration expenditure.

 

Sad truth is, for both versions of the game, some players are just so good for whatever reason that they don't even understand how good they are when compared to most everyone else.

Yet they still expect other players will fly with or against them like nothing at all is different about them, and that if they're having "fun" everyone else should be too.

 

 

 

bradk62, on 09 December 2018 - 10:31 PM, said:

Pick your poison.  Why is win-rate the primary judging criteria?

How about being able to sort these lists by aircraft type for each player?

Then it would show how grossly OP certain planes were/are in the 1.9/2.0 meta, like the Pancake, which allows even crappy pilots such as myself to significantly up their WR higher than it would normally be at.

When I look at the profile of another player I check first what lights, GAA, or bombers they fly in 2.0 and then what heavies they flew in 1.9 (if they were playing obviously).

 

Warplanes Today is defunct, and I don't remember offhand if it was like Warships Today where you could filter based on matches played solo or as 2- and 3-player divisions.

The damage/XP/WR/etc etc numbers, for ship players, tend to vary (often quite a lot) between solo and division matches.

Edited by Soylent_Red_Isnt_People, 10 December 2018 - 02:38 AM.

[vcharng]

Soylent_Red_Isnt_People, on 10 December 2018 - 02:14 AM, said:

For 2.0, definitely - before I took a year off from the game I used to encounter Oliviako regularly at tiers VII/VIII on up during the times of day I played.

 

She'd usually be in some sort of attack aircraft, always in a flight, and either one of them would basically insta-nuke you at any range once they saw a player controlled plane trying to contest a capture point.

If both were in heavies, or either other fighter type, they'd just hunt you down the whole match unless you somehow managed to deliberately avoid them.

 

That's because he's Oliviako (currently the player with the highest WR). not because he flies GAA.

And you mentioned another problem, he always flies in a flight with a head hunter.

 

It's better now, in earlier versions, imagine facing him and his wingman alone. Your stats starts dropping before the game starts.