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vcharng #161 Posted 13 December 2019 - 01:32 PM

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View PostPerrigrino, on 13 December 2019 - 09:41 AM, said:

Addiction By Design


These manipulative tactics 

I actually kinda agree.

I've been against all PVP gaming for the better part of two decades, because PVP creates an addiction, an obsession of "must win".

You can see from that "must win" thread a few weeks ago just how successful such a creation is. There was a guy so obsessed that he can loudly say "the loser deserves nothing" despite those so-called "losers" may very well did nothing wrong at all.

This is the reason why I have been promoting a bipolar PVE/FFA gaming model for years. Either not encourage such an obsession, or make such an obsession so impractical that the player will eventually realize just how unrealistic it is to pursue winning as the only way to have fun. Team based PVP, sitting in the middle, is the best recipe for disguising what is unrealistic realistic.

 



Perrigrino #162 Posted 14 December 2019 - 03:10 AM

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https://platinumpara...ming-behaviour/

 

"For the bully, the audience’s enjoyment helps raise their social status in the peer group and acts as encouragement to do it again (Swearer & Hymel, 2015). For the person being bullied, their social status in the peer group is reduced and they have to choose whether to retaliate or quietly take the abuse. If they retaliate, they risk further abuse that may even turn physical. If they remain quiet, the damage to their social status in the peer group still happens regardless."

 

or not....


Edited by Perrigrino, 14 December 2019 - 03:15 AM.


Perrigrino #163 Posted 14 December 2019 - 03:30 AM

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beyond the magiacl world of addiction there exist other possibilities, but the profit margin has yet to be determined :

 

https://www.frontier...2014.00028/full

 

Cognitive behavioral game design: a unified model for designing serious games

Introduction

Video games have a unique ability to engage, challenge, and motivate (Gee, 2003), which has lead teachers, psychology specialists, political activists, and health educators to find ways of using them to help people learn, grow and change. Serious games, as they are called, are defined as games that have a primary purpose other than entertainment. However, it is challenging to create games that both educate and entertain (Van Eck, 2006; Prensky, 2001; Schrand, 2008). In the health research sector, Bandura’s (2006) social cognitive theory (SCT) has been used successfully to create video games that create positive behavior outcomes, from increased fruit and vegetable intake to decreased calorie consumption; and better self-care for asthma (Baranowski et al., 2008). While game designers have embraced some psychological concepts such as flow (Csikszentmihalyi and LeFevre, 1989) and mastery (Gee, 2003), understanding how these concepts work together within established psychological theory would assist them in creating effective serious games.

The Enjoyment Process

In the quest to assist with the design of serious games, several authors have sought to explain what makes a game, what makes games enjoyable as well as educational (Gee, 2003; Squire, 2006; Prensky, 2001). Several aspects of those theories map directly to other elements of CBGD. For example, Prensky (2001) delineates six key elements of games that map almost exactly to: Rules, Goals and Objectives, Outcomes and Feedback, Opposition, Interaction, and Story (Prensky, 2001, p. 05–11). Rules can be an expression of Knowledge; Goals, Outcomes, and Opposition are mapped almost exactly; and Interaction can be a form of the relationships/role models element. In addition to finding elements that promote cognition, these researchers have found elements that contribute to enjoyment as well. Although several elements are included, there appears to be a few consistencies within elements listed as making a game enjoyable: engagement, challenge, flow, persistence, and mastery.

 

 


Edited by Perrigrino, 14 December 2019 - 08:12 AM.


Perrigrino #164 Posted 14 December 2019 - 08:04 AM

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Tech Matters - Fortnite... can you be addicted to the game?

 

https://www.cbc.ca/p...y/1623769667971

 

Game made to be 'as addictive as possible,' lawyer alleges

That success was built from extensive research and development that was aimed at creating an addictive game, Chartrand said.

"Epic Games, when they created Fortnite, for years and years, hired psychologists — they really dug into the human brain and they really made the effort to make it as addictive as possible," she said.

https://www.cbc.ca/n...treal-1.5308625

 



Captain_Underpants53 #165 Posted 14 December 2019 - 09:06 AM

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Yes.

 

 

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vcharng #166 Posted 15 December 2019 - 10:41 AM

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View PostPerrigrino, on 14 December 2019 - 03:10 AM, said:

https://platinumpara...ming-behaviour/

 

"For the bully, the audience’s enjoyment helps raise their social status in the peer group and acts as encouragement to do it again (Swearer & Hymel, 2015). For the person being bullied, their social status in the peer group is reduced and they have to choose whether to retaliate or quietly take the abuse. If they retaliate, they risk further abuse that may even turn physical. If they remain quiet, the damage to their social status in the peer group still happens regardless."

 

or not....

Exactly what is happening in every last PVP game...



Perrigrino #167 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:26 AM

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this got moved... CURIOUS!  Was under General Discussion, but not "OFF TOPIC" - very much on Topic of General Game Discussion, specifically "HOW" this game and others work, from MM to RNG, to design of games. 

 

Was this done to try to make it more difficult to find and view? Please tell me I'm wrong? What are you afraid of?

 

P.S. to WG staff- if your going to enforce some policy or rule, make it consistent across the board- otherwise it's just prejudice.


Edited by Perrigrino, 18 December 2019 - 08:30 AM.


Perrigrino #168 Posted 18 December 2019 - 09:13 AM

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"For the bully, the audience’s enjoyment helps raise their social status in the peer group and acts as encouragement to do it again (Swearer & Hymel, 2015). For the person being bullied, their social status in the peer group is reduced and they have to choose whether to retaliate or quietly take the abuse. If they retaliate, they risk further abuse that may even turn physical. If they remain quiet, the damage to their social status in the peer group still happens regardless."  or not....

 

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Date a widow and discover what love is really like. Don't be a Stingy_A-ss give it a try...

 

"...like a softly whispered lover's promise of what was to come... " ww

 

 


Edited by Perrigrino, 18 December 2019 - 09:34 AM.


Perrigrino #169 Posted 18 December 2019 - 10:03 AM

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and from the Game Developers themselves:

 

https://www.youtube....49lg56u6qH8y_MQ

 

there's a ton of stufF here, and various talks by developers give amazing insights into the design, ideas, assumptions etc., put into various games. I tried to copy a short video segment about balance from "Addressing Exploit Abuse in Eve Online..." which started at 24:53 min, but something about permission. Anyway, lots of food for thought here....

 



Perrigrino #170 Posted 18 December 2019 - 03:48 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 December 2019 - 02:10 PM, said:

Well, when stuff goes sideways, there is always WG staff to cry to.  I mean, it's easy to play the victim when one goads others into responding.  The cries of "TROLL!" is almost the definition of projection, BTW.

 

BUT, goading is a two-way street, isn't it?  There is at LEAST one unproductive and TOU-violating post here, and reporting it to WG might get a start on building up warning points.  Just a suggestion.

 

I, too, am baffled as to why this thread was moved to OT.  I mean, some of it is not WoWP-specific, but it does bear on MM and gameplay.  In any case, getting the microtransactions flowing is all about how much you can get the player to come back for multiple bites at the game.  If you don't make it compelling (addictive), then microtransactions don't happen. 

CC

As for the troll, he drew 1st blood- why? because I threatened his world view?. And kept poking the bear. Now that fella who complains of a painful existence, seems to be enjoying someone else's misfortune- isn't that ironic? Oh well. Poor tortured souls.

 

As to moving this too somewhere considered relatively obscure, well when conversations deal with sensitive and controversial issues, THEY either warn us to be silent (which happened earlier in this thread), or find ways to make us quiet. And history is full of examples. Perhaps talk of "addiction" and practices that promote that behaviour is making some nervous. (?) What I found really interesting is the just how deeply involved the whole field of psychology is involved. Cognitive Behavioural Game Design (CBGD above)-  Some suspect this kind of activity to a greater or lesser extent, but to see the particulars, the psychological elements of design, and where its leading, for me it's very interesting. 

 

 

and then there's the dev's talking about many familiar aspects found in this web site, which is a treasure trove,

 

https://www.youtube....6qH8y_MQ/videos

 

 

 

In video below, check out:

09:00 min. in, Information Architecture. Players "need to upgrade their vehicle because they want to perform better..." ( BALANCE?)

13:00 in discussion about Battle=Fun=Store, significance of colours Red/Green

22:22 -22:41  "Candy" (rewards) …"we show them the fun and make them give us something in return..."

23:19 Monetization "we want to push monetization without being too pushy... did a lot of research... we use positive emotions of player...using people's emotions can help monetization, not too pushy- appropriate, targeted to player behaviour."

27:10 Tutorials "...spend a lot of time on tutorials...complex?... spend a very very long time on tutorials..."

29:10 Content (Value) for Paying and Non-Paying players "... seen this a lot of times where people push monetization and start selling stuff to help people to win, or to help people win better... people (players?) don't appreciate,.. our game is a a game of skill, and when people master that skill, they value it that much, that if we introduce something that will allow other people with less skill perform better, … it's gonna ruin their (skilled players) loyalty...

30:00 what makes players happy and want to achieve more?

37:30 "main reason people play a tank game is because they're excited about a tank,... so everything else is irrelevant,... the tanks are very sexy and we want people topay attention to the sexy stuff we have to offer...

41:30 Question from audience- "what about situation when player lose?" Answer- ".. digging into a lot of research on players positive and negative emotions and how they will behave when they experience both...but people experience a lot more pain when they lose, … their behaviour can be very controversial, you can never predict,... very often when people lose playing our game, depending on the seriousness,  they just quit the game. They don't want to buy anything. They don't want to buy another upgrade, they don't want to buy another consumable... to kick azz. Because they're so upset, they just want to forget about it. That's the most common behaviour.... Negative emotions are a lot more powerful, so have to be careful how to deal with them..."

 

 

 

slightly dated but candid, relevant and revealing...

 


Edited by Perrigrino, 18 December 2019 - 07:07 PM.


SkyWolf__WM #171 Posted 18 December 2019 - 05:54 PM

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View PostPerrigrino, on 18 December 2019 - 10:48 AM, said:

CC

As for the troll, he drew 1st blood- why? because I threatened his world view?. And kept poking the bear. Now that fella who complains of a painful existence, seems to be enjoying someone else's misfortune- isn't that ironic? Oh well. Poor tortured souls.

 

As to moving this too somewhere considered relatively obscure, well when conversations deal with sensitive and controversial issues, THEY either warn us to be silent (which happened earlier in this thread), or find ways to make us quiet. And history is full of examples. Perhaps talk of "addiction" and practices that promote that behaviour is making some nervous. (?) What I found really interesting is the just how deeply involved the whole field of psychology is involved. Cognitive Behavioural Game Design (CBGD above)-  Some suspect this kind of activity to a greater or lesser extent, but to see the particulars, the psychological elements of design, and where its leading, for me it's very interesting. 

 

 

and then there's the dev's talking about many familiar aspects found in this web site, which is a treasure trove,

 

https://www.youtube....6qH8y_MQ/videos

 

check out:

10 min in, brief reference to BALANCE

13 min in discussion about Battle=Fun=Store, colours Red/Green

22:22 -22:41 "Candy" …"we show them the fun and make them give us something in return..."

 

 

slightly dated but relevant...

 

 

Interesting. And thanks for taking the time to type it up in cursive.


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Four_Leaf_Tayback #172 Posted 18 December 2019 - 06:34 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 18 December 2019 - 11:54 AM, said:

 

Interesting. And thanks for taking the time to type it up in cursive.

 

It's Comic Sans.


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Perrigrino #173 Posted 18 December 2019 - 07:04 PM

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shoulda waited. there's more "writing".

 

Anywho, there's quite a lot to take in and her talk hits on numerous issues that have been brought up here in 4ums over the years, by numerous players in all titles. I find it fascinating how designers use the parts of psychology they like that help to facilitate Monetization and dependency. ( which some might refer to as "addiction")

 

"it's all in the grind!" - Ewan McGregor, Black Hawk Down.



Perrigrino #174 Posted 19 December 2019 - 03:49 AM

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http://www.nickyee.c...qt/skinner.html

 

The Virtual Skinner Box

 

B.F. Skinner. Skinner is an important figure in Behaviorism, and developed a learning theory known as Operant Conditioning. Skinner claimed that the frequency of a given behavior is directly linked to whether it is rewarded or punished. If a behavior is rewarded, it is more likely to be repeated. If it is punished, it becomes suppressed. This deceptively simple and straight-forward theory may explain why EverQuest is so addictive.

 

The rewards cycle in EverQuest begins with instant gratifications. When you start a new character, everything you need to do is close by - finding the guildmaster; finding mobs to kill. The first few mobs you attack die in several swings and you make level 2 in about 5 kills. By the time you make level 3 half an hour later, you are more aware of the underlying skill points, the accumulation of money, and gain a desire to get better equipment. Gradually, it takes longer and longer to get to the next level. The simple tasks that you did to improve trade skills have become trivial, but the rewards you get - the blue skill points and the metal bits - drive you to perform tasks more elaborate than before because trivial tasks are no longer rewarded. The one-click reward disappears, and is gradually replaced by rewards that take more and more clicks to get. And suddenly, some of us find ourselves clicking away for hours in front of a forge or jewellery kit.

 

This process of guiding an individual to perform more and more elaborate and complex tasks is known as shaping in Operant Conditioning. It is usually explained in textbooks in conjunction with Skinner Boxes. Skinner boxes are small glass or plexi-glass boxes equipped with a combination of levers, food pellets, and drinking tubes. Laboratory rats are placed into Skinner boxes and conditioned to perform elaborate tasks. At first, the rat is rewarded with a food pellet for facing the lever. Then it is rewarded if it gets closer to the lever. Eventually, the rat is shaped to press the lever. Once the rat learns that pressing the lever is rewarded, a food pellet does not need to be dropped every time and the rat will still continue pressing the lever. It is in the same way that EverQuest shapes players to pursue more and more elaborate blacksmithing or tailoring combinations. Moreover, EverQuest players continue to attempt elaborate combinations in the face of many costly failures.

 

There are several schedules of reinforcement that can be used in Operant Conditioning. The most basic is a fixed interval schedule, and the rat in the Skinner Box is rewarded every 5 minutes regardless of whether it presses the lever. Unsurprisingly, this method is not particularly effective. Another kind of reinforcement schedule is the fixed ratio schedule, and the rat is rewarded every time it presses the lever 5 times. This schedule is more effective than the fixed interval schedule. The most effective method is a random ratio schedule, and the rat is rewarded after it presses the lever a random number of times. Because the rat cannot predict precisely when it will be rewarded even though it knows it has to press the lever to get food, the rat presses the lever more consistently than in the other schedules. ( -Calibration?)

 

A random ratio schedule is also the one that EverQuest uses. Both melee and trade skill points increase after a random number of attempts. You know you won't get skill points unless you practice the skill, but you don't know how many attempts it will take to get another skill point. Level increases also take a random number of kills. You know that you won't gain a level by standing around, but you don't know exactly how many mobs you need to kill. Because the time it takes to level can be estimated however, one might argue that level increments follow a fixed ratio rather than a random ratio schedule. It is the presence of experience penalties from dying that randomizes this estimation, because it is hard to estimate deaths. The ability for certain classes to use effective strategies (druid quad-kiting for example) at certain levels also means that a higher level may be completed in less time than the level before it. Veteran players know that just because you can get a bubble of experience in half an hour today doesn't mean you can do it again tomorrow, because class demand and grouping conditions change even in the same zone from day to day.

 

A completely transparent experience points system would be a fixed ratio schedule because you have a very good grasp of how many more solo kills it takes to gain a level. Thus, if EverQuest exposed the underlying numerical experience points and told you how many points a mob gave you, and how much more experience you need to gain a level, it would be less effective as a reinforcement schedule. A system that can most effectively hint at progress without sacrificing this opacity maximizes the random ratio schedule, and this is why the recently implemented blue macro-view line in the experience bar enhances the schedule already in place. This is particularly true for mid-level players who would get frustrated by the normal experience bar that moved too slowly, and thus made them feel that progress was not being made.

 

The presence of multi-layered and overlapping goals in the game allow players to pursue multiple rewards concurrently. You need more experience to gain levels so you can kill bigger creatures. Along the way, you need more money to buy better equipment. You may want to develop trade skills, complete quests, travel across Norrath, or camp a rare spawn. Most of the time, you'll be doing several of these at the same time. In fact, the game forces you to. You can't keep up with mobs if you level but don't buy new gear. You can't continue blacksmithing if you run out of money. What this means is that you're always close to a goal - a reward. You are seldom far away from all possible rewards.

 

But something more intensely provoking has happened in EverQuest which makes it addictive. Another frequently encountered figure in introductory psychology textbooks is Maslow, known for his proposed hierarchy of needs. Maslow sees human needs in a pyramid scheme. At the bottom are basic hunger and thirst needs. Then follows security. At the top of the pyramid are aesthetic needs and personal achievements, which would only be possible on a strong foundation of sated hunger and security needs. Thus, even though personal achievements are more rewarding than filling an empty stomach, these achievements are only possible once you've filled your stomach. But EverQuest makes it possible for Joes and Janes to become heroes. EverQuest makes it so that you can slay Vox in a guild raid on an empty stomach. What happens when people can feel achievement through continuous mouse-clicking? What happens when these achievements are more rewarding than "real life" achievements? And what if it's easier to click the mouse than to cook dinner?

 

One important tenet of Operant Conditioning is that behaviors are not inherently rewarding - they are made rewarding through reinforcement. It is the shaping process in EverQuest that makes the in-game "achievements" rewarding. It is the shaping process that make "achievements" achievements. People who don't play EQ don't see the appeal in clicking "COMBINE" in front of a forge for hours. They don't see why players would camp Quillmane or ice cougars for hours, even days, for an item that usually doesn't drop. To outsiders, the time players spend playing the game is mind-boggling. But it's hard for those of us inside the construct to realize this because the game has conditioned us to pursue these rewards.

 

Many things set EverQuest apart from other available computer games. Unlike other RPG's, there is no story-line or super-ordinate goal. In fact, there really isn't even any kind of plot, which allows the player to feel in control. Games like Diablo II give constant instant gratification, and do not gradually take more and more time to reach rewards. Game-play at level 25 in Diablo feels just like game-play at level 10, whereas that is not the case in EverQuest. No one would play Diablo if you needed to camp a mob that only sometimes dropped an item. In fact, no one would play Diablo if you had to wait for a mob to spawn. But what sets EverQuest apart is that it is multi-layered and complicated in a way that few other games are. Everything from trade skills to faction, from mobs to their loot, from zones to planes, is complex and well-textured. Finally, it is different because it is massively multi-player, but while most multiplayer games are completely destructive, EverQuest has a decidedly constructive and cooperative tone to it. There is no blood in the game. No disemboweled intestines splatter on your screen. Instead, players often find themselves chatting while waiting for a mob to spawn. The ranger may be fletching as he recounts a particularly close battle. The warrior chugs some Dwarven Ale. There may be some emotes with playful, sexual overtones. In contrast with Quake or Diablo, this scene feels awfully relaxed and idyllic.

 

The massively-multiplayer nature of the game takes the virtual construct one step beyond just an elaborate Skinner Box. The problem with many people is that you can't have one box tailored to all of their reinforcement needs. But having them all in their separate Skinner Boxes is not interesting. The internet solves this problem by allowing individually tailored Skinner Boxes interact with others. And in this way, EverQuest has created a system of inter-connected Skinner Boxes, a Skinner Network even, where each Skinner Box is tailored to its host's needs and reinforcement schedule, and where individuals can interact with each other without sacrificing the integrity of their own construct. It is like the Matrix where everyone is isolated in their own nutrient vat, but where they can interact in a digitally-constructed world.


Edited by Perrigrino, 19 December 2019 - 04:07 AM.


blindfoId #175 Posted 19 December 2019 - 08:19 AM

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This thread as well as another thread about "game design" is moved to off-topic because it is a pure off-topic. It has nothing to do with World of Warplanes gameplay, thus it doesn't belong to General Gameplay Discussion section on WoWp forum. 

 

I'd like to remind you that discussing moderation actions is still against the forum rules.

 

For other participants of the discussion, please refresh yourselves on Forum Rules again. Personal attacks are not welcome here. Consider it to be a verbal warning. 



Perrigrino #176 Posted 29 December 2019 - 01:36 AM

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View PostblindfoId, on 19 December 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

This thread as well as another thread about "game design" is moved to off-topic because it is a pure off-topic. It has nothing to do with World of Warplanes gameplay, thus it doesn't belong to General Gameplay Discussion section on WoWp forum. 

 

 

Explain, please. Because as I have pointed out to date, the interpretation of "Game Play" and "Off Topic" is very confusing, particularly in light of numerous other "violations", or are they all just nuanced by interpretation? and misinterpretations? Not sure of Law in Greece,but in Canada, we have a thing called Natural Justice, likely inherited from the Brits. But the thinking goes: "if your going to accuse someone of something, you need to cite Chapter and Verse of the particular code and EXPLAIN how your decision relates to the matter." and I suspect there are similar notions that still resonate from the cradle of western thought.  - respectfuly  p 



Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #177 Posted 05 January 2020 - 03:54 PM

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View PostPerrigrino, on 28 December 2019 - 08:36 PM, said:

 

Explain, please. Because as I have pointed out to date, the interpretation of "Game Play" and "Off Topic" is very confusing, particularly in light of numerous other "violations", or are they all just nuanced by interpretation? and misinterpretations? Not sure of Law in Greece,but in Canada, we have a thing called Natural Justice, likely inherited from the Brits. But the thinking goes: "if your going to accuse someone of something, you need to cite Chapter and Verse of the particular code and EXPLAIN how your decision relates to the matter." and I suspect there are similar notions that still resonate from the cradle of western thought.  - respectfuly  p 

silly rabbit

.
lol... cyprus is greek in name only

I heard the county... well,

they left behind all intelligent thought when they passed the tax laws

I can't personally verify this though

.

I get with you on this when I'm more certain

 


if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


trikke #178 Posted 05 January 2020 - 03:56 PM

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great posts, Perri!        good to see you in the air this week!

 

you could compellingly convince BF, but she wouldn't have the clout to make changes to the MM, which is this thread's subject

 

perfect matches with long waits, or not so perfect matches with short waits...     I would choose short


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Bluegoose02 #179 Posted 05 January 2020 - 10:15 PM

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I would prefer matches that are closer to equal with some wait than matches that are one sided with some wait. Also if you want me to spend money you have to make the grind realistic and the prize worth it. And yes I'm addicted to this game or I would have left a long time ago.Keep the bots equal and let player skill be the game changer.

Edited by Bluegoose02, 05 January 2020 - 10:35 PM.


Perrigrino #180 Posted 11 January 2020 - 01:07 AM

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View PostBluegoose02, on 05 January 2020 - 10:15 PM, said:

I would prefer matches that are closer to equal with some wait than matches that are one sided with some wait. Also if you want me to spend money you have to make the grind realistic and the prize worth it. And yes I'm addicted to this game or I would have left a long time ago.Keep the bots equal and let player skill be the game changer.


Aboslutely right about the grind. Me too! I'm addicted, but I like to be a c"consenting"addict, and not be violated.

 

I think B.F. Skinner was onto something...

 

"The most effective method is a random ratio schedule, and the rat is rewarded after it presses the lever a random number of times. Because the rat cannot predict precisely when it will be rewarded even though it knows it has to press the lever to get food, the rat presses the lever more consistently than in the other schedules.

 

Here's a glaring difference form recent WoWS. I use this only to show that WG is capable of BALANCE and to highlight the difference in interpretation of PvE:

 

 

  • All same tier
  • Vehicle Class matches

and, for PvE

  • humans on one side, bots on other

 

(good thing this is about chess and isn't about playing WoWP) 

 

 


Edited by Perrigrino, 11 January 2020 - 01:09 AM.






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