185 replies to this topic

[Perrigrino]

Dear Developers of World of Warplanes and Wargaming in General,

 

In the Questions To Developers, I asked :

 

Perrigrino, on 01 November 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

3. How does Match Maker utilize player Profiles?

So Player Profiles are used in output for calculating credit, which begs the question, are they used for input setting up the matches as described in the game architecture for tanks

 

The Match Making system takes into account only tiers and types of aircraft. We are planning to come up with a detailed explanation of how the MM works in the near future as we are tracing the increasing amount of questions and specific cases of misunderstanding which give birth to the theories far from reality. 

 

 

The response, assumed not attributable to Blindfold, is the same as Eugene Pugach's from Developers Blog, of years ago. Two things used to set up a    Match= Tiers+Class. The Dev's, thru Blindfold, tell us we can expect  "a detailed explanation of how the MM works in the near future..."  So, to help things along so that we clear up specific cases of misunderstanding I would like to ask the question here, but for the singular purpose of clarifying mysteries surrounding the reality of MM and dispelling alternative theories:

 

​ It has been acknowledged that World of WarPlanes is based on the design/architecture of World Of Tanks. Profiles are acknowledged as being utilized in the allocation of rewards, based on varying skill levels.  How are player profiles utilized in setting up matches, allocating rewards?

 

To help hasten the discussion/explanation along, here are some quoted sections from following links to Wargaming's Patents (patent source as found in Komunist's Post) :

 

https://patents.goog...n?q=A63F13/795  :

"The server may automatically match the new player with a team of one or more other players based on a player profile associated with the new player and player profiles associated with the one or more other players. The new players profile may include a style identifier related to a particular style of game play determined from one or more statistics in the new player's profile. Each of the one or more other players' profiles may also include style identifiers related to particular style of game play determined from one or more statistics in the one or more other players profiles. The system may match the new player with the team of one or more other players, e.g., by balancing the new player's particular style of play and the styles of play associated with the one or more other players." (Patent actually belongs to Sony Interactive Entertainment, but is referenced in Wargaming's Patent).

 

see the Detailed Description section of the Wargaming Patent :

 

https://patents.goog...atent/US8425330 ( the levels mentioned deal with difficulty and are not Tiers but subgroups within Tiers- see the Table 1) :

 

The network environment of FIG. 1 may also associate with one or more matchmaking servers 106. As used herein, a matchmaking server 106 may determine what set of players to assign to a same instance of the virtual world to ensure that all players meet predefined criteria for that instance of the virtual world. That is, if extremely experienced players are paired with complete novices, the experienced players may quickly become bored, while the novice players may quickly become frustrated, causing each of them to stop playing the game altogether. Thus, the matchmaking server(s) 106 determine how to assign players to an instance of a virtual world so that every player is challenged, without getting frustrated. Specific algorithms and techniques used for matchmaking are described in more detail below....

 

...As players research and purchase more advanced technologies, those players advance in skill and ability, which also affects how those players should be matched against other players in the game by matchmaking server 106....

 

...By putting players into battles of varying level, the players experience a variety of game play while experiencing both wins and losses. According to one aspect, a player may be placed randomly or sequentially in any suitable battle level. However, according to another aspect, players who have just acquired a new higher tier vehicle are encouraged by being placed into battle sessions near the lower boundary of that vehicle's accessibility range, which allows the player feel more comfortable in the game. With time, the balancing system starts putting them into higher levels battle sessions, which creates a challenge of playing with more upgraded opponent vehicles.

 

​...According to an aspect, the average level of difficulty in each battle can be adjusted by changing the bounds of access ranges for specified vehicles types ...

 

...Using battle levels as described herein, matchmaking servers can assign players to sessions to provide players with varied gaming experiences without frustrating or boring the player. Battle sessions are balanced while the difficulty levels of the battle session for each player are controlled....

 

 

So, developers,  let the unravelling of the mystery begin....., 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Perrigrino, 05 December 2018 - 05:15 AM.

[GonerNL]

This week ...

http://forum.worldof...712#entry759712

[Perrigrino]

GonerNL, on 05 December 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

This week ...

http://forum.worldof...712#entry759712

 

Yes, my buddy Xr901, (why not 401?), is talking about some very specific issues with regard to how the MM design is presently being implemented/manipulated since the last Patch. My Topic is more of a nuts and bolts approach to the subject matter. The frame, the engine, the chassis etc.

Edited by Perrigrino, 05 December 2018 - 12:33 PM.

[blindfoId]

And I will say the same thing: the MM in WoWp takes into account only tiers and types (though there are some peculiarities of this point) of aircraft. The blog article is on its way. 

[Perrigrino]

A blog explanation, if like the one that has existed since 1.X by Mr. Pugach, leaves a lot of questions more than answers, and no developer responds to the Dev's Blog- my questions, and those of others sat unanswered for over 2 years (and still unanswered). This is one of the reasons there are multiple myths of Match Maker in circulation in the community. If we could have a discussion, where questions are answered, that would be more productive. Blindfold, I have heard the dumby down, simplified explanation you put forward many times, but there are statements (recent Patch Notes regarding rewarding of players of varying skill levels) and there is the  collective experience of the community, and finally there is what is described in the Patent as to what is possible. 

 

The Patent itself describes utilizing profiles. Karma, still used in MM as described by Pugach, utilizes player profiles and, according to the wiki page, awards points to specific individuals based on a win or a loss. After so many of either +/- points the player is evaluated and reassigned into a Match that according to the (?) algorithm (?) determines moving that player to the top tier of the next match or bottom tier. There is also mention of subsets within the Tiers- Are these subsets determined by the level of expertise of the Bots-Beginner, Intermediate, Expert, or whatever label is used (Warrior/Veteran). Is this how the levels of difficulty are manifested? There are lots of similar questions, at least form me, but I'm almost certain there are many more within the player base.

 

Like, how is this manifested in MM design:."Thus, the matchmaking server(s) 106 determine how to assign players of a virtual world so that every player is challenged, without getting frustrated. Specific algorithms and techniques are described in more detail below..."

 

During design, the architects knew of the pitfalls of imbalance and how that would impact player experience. There is a lot of frustration in the community, for many reasons but this is one of the biggies.

 

Specifics instead of vague mention of peculiarities. Details. These are the kinds of things that will help us understand. Please don't treat us like a mass of single celled animals. North Americans value openness and accountability. If the Dev's are going to issue another BLOG, like the other's, like that of  the recent Patch Note's, which invariably leave more questions than answer's, well then, the mysterious mythology of MM will continue. That is not productive or an efficient use of their time, and only fuels frustration and misunderstanding.

 

Invite them here, let them speak. Isn't this one of the Reasons these WoWP FORUMS were created?

 

Edited by Perrigrino, 05 December 2018 - 09:07 PM.

[Shizzywiznut]

Perrigrino, on 05 December 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

 

Invite them here, let them speak. Isn't this one of the Reasons these WoWP FORUMS were created?

 

 

Nope, they are a means for making friends and sharing a passion of WoWPs. Could be why there are so many trolls on gaming forums, the troll passion is about trolling, not about any particular game........ hmmm maybe have a new sub forum that give those trolls a safe space, sort of like primates in a zoo all throwing poo at one another.

[Captain_Underpants53]

Perrigrino, on 05 December 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

A blog explanation, if like the one that has existed since 1.X by Mr. Pugach, leaves a lot of questions more than answers, and no developer responds to the Dev's Blog- my questions, and those of others sat unanswered for over 2 years (and still unanswered). This is one of the reasons there are multiple myths of Match Maker in circulation in the community. If we could have a discussion, where questions are answered, that would be more productive. Blindfold, I have heard the dumby down, simplified explanation you put forward many times, but there are statements (recent Patch Notes regarding rewarding of players of varying skill levels) and there is the  collective experience of the community, and finally there is what is described in the Patent as to what is possible. 

 

The Patent itself describes utilizing profiles. Karma, still used in MM as described by Pugach, utilizes player profiles and, according to the wiki page, awards points to specific individuals based on a win or a loss. After so many of either +/- points the player is evaluated and reassigned into a Match that according to the (?) algorithm (?) determines moving that player to the top tier of the next match or bottom tier. There is also mention of subsets within the Tiers- Are these subsets determined by the level of expertise of the Bots-Beginner, Intermediate, Expert, or whatever label is used (Warrior/Veteran). Is this how the levels of difficulty are manifested? There are lots of similar questions, at least form me, but I'm almost certain there are many more within the player base.

 

Like, how is this manifested in MM design:."Thus, the matchmaking server(s) 106 determine how to assign players of a virtual world so that every player is challenged, without getting frustrated. Specific algorithms and techniques are described in more detail below..."

 

During design, the architects knew of the pitfalls of imbalance and how that would impact player experience. There is a lot of frustration in the community, for many reasons but this is one of the biggies.

 

Specifics instead of vague mention of peculiarities. Details. These are the kinds of things that will help us understand. Please don't treat us like a mass of single celled animals. North Americans value openness and accountability. If the Dev's are going to issue another BLOG, like the other's, like that of  the recent Patch Note's, which invariably leave more questions than answer's, well then, the mysterious mythology of MM will continue. That is not productive or an efficient use of their time, and only fuels frustration and misunderstanding.

 

Invite them here, let them speak. Isn't this one of the Reasons these WoWP FORUMS were created?

 

 

Edited by Captain_Underpants53, 05 December 2018 - 09:36 PM.

[Perrigrino]

Shizzywiznut, on 05 December 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

 

Nope, they are a means for making friends and sharing a passion of WoWPs. Could be why there are so many trolls on gaming forums, the troll passion is about trolling, not about any particular game........ hmmm maybe have a new sub forum that give those trolls a safe space, sort of like primates in a zoo all throwing poo at one another.

 

Please. ur going off topic. I would like the DEv's to respond, unless of course you have something specific about MM you would like to add to the discussion?

Edited by Perrigrino, 05 December 2018 - 10:26 PM.

[blindfoId]

Perrigrino

I can go into details describing the whole system like - at first, the system takes into account flights, then tiers, then types and so on; but I believe it would be better to wait till the article is published. In the current MM there's no Karma or any other modifiers utilizing player profile to affect the match balancing issues. The article is written according to and using the information from official game designer documents which describe how it works. 

 

"Invite them here, let them speak. Isn't this one of the Reasons these WoWP FORUMS were created?"

As far as I know, some of developers do read the forums, some of them don't. Still it is not their first priority. The ones who read the forums, collect and deliver the customers' desires/complaints/needs are CMs. That is the part of their work. As well as expressing the official position of the development and publisher, clarifying issues and answering questions. 

 

As soon as there is a need of developers involvement (questions to the developers or the explanation and clarification of the issue like this one with MM) they involve. There's a demand - there's a response. The blog article will be the response to your demand. 

[GonerNL]

blindfoId, on 06 December 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

I can go into details describing the whole system like - at first, the system takes into account flights, 

 

That is exactly what it doesn't do ... or was that just an example of a 'detail' ??

[05hit]

Seems to me it's not so much a Match Maker but a Mis Matcher.

 

If the system takes into account tier and type, why aren't battles ALL the same tier AND the same number of types on each team?

 

It would go a long way to levelling the field.

[Martymart1976]

So I played 15 solo  games last night, mostly tier 4 and 5, and I was bottom tiered 13 games against specialized planes on the other team.  I won about half my battles and achieved parity.  Trying to hold off specialized flights of Spitfires was not fun, it was a struggle to not get shot down repeatedly.  .  It was a futile effort mostly.  If I was on the same tier as the Spitfires say like in my XFL or my own Spitfire, it would have been a different story..

[Reitousair]

blindfoId, on 06 December 2018 - 02:54 AM, said:

In the current MM there's no Karma or any other modifiers utilizing player profile to affect the match balancing issues.

 

I could not find any patchnotes on this despite me knowing that this was mentioned as a change in 2.0.7 however when I went back into some Discord message history on a few servers I frequent I found this.

 

Player karma based on deviation from point 0 (a result of playing +/- 1 tier battles to the tier of aircraft they are playing) will be disabled, replaced with a new algorithm.  - posted by a Discord user on October 11th, 2018 while combing through patchnotes

 

Does anybody know what happened to this snippet? I went digging through all of the September and October news and could find this despite there being repeated mentions of it by others (and even me when somebody was having a whinge about them constantly being bottom-tier that day.) I suspect it was from the 2.0.7 patchnotes as there was a lot of banter about that around the time this was brought up. While I am curious what this new devblog will bring, It's quite strange that something like this would suddenly disappear from the news.

 

Edited by Reitousair, 06 December 2018 - 07:43 PM.

[Captain_Underpants53]

Reitousair, on 06 December 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

 

I could not find any patchnotes on this despite me knowing that this was mentioned as a change in 2.0.7 however when I went back into some Discord message history on a few servers I frequent I found this.

 

Player karma based on deviation from point 0 (a result of playing +/- 1 tier battles to the tier of aircraft they are playing) will be disabled, replaced with a new algorithm.  - posted by a Discord user on October 11th, 2018 while combing through patchnotes

 

Does anybody know what happened to this snippet? I went digging through all of the September and October news and could find this despite there being repeated mentions of it by others (and even me when somebody was having a whinge about them constantly being bottom-tier that day.) I suspect it was from the 2.0.7 patchnotes as there was a lot of banter about that around the time this was brought up. While I am curious what this new devblog will bring, It's quite strange that something like this would suddenly disappear from the news.

 

 

Strange?  Or typical?

 

[Zoney45]

Can at least some of us agree -- not the effete elitists who circle these forums from altitudes of rarified air and for whom any and all observations/critiques of mere rabble ("git gud steenkin rabble") are to be disparaged and derided -- can some of us agree that at the very least the matchmaking seems to be a widespread source of puzzlement, bewilderment and frustration?

 

Oh, sure, it's fun when you're riding the wake of some bot racking up 12,000 points and four or five chevrons (I've seen this happen) and/or have the top three players on your team hitting grade 2 or 1 -- but when you're the one racking up 2 medals and 14K+ points and still losing, and when you're finishing in the number-one slot five losses in a row because the rest of your team likes to fly in circles over empty map chasing down stragglers, it's an eyebrow-raiser. (Yes, yes, herd your bots, but of course. It's usually not the bots though.)

 

Judging by the start of this thread, it almost looks like the W/L is 75 percent of the way to pulling a slot-machine lever. Woe betide the airman who finds himself on the short end of a grossly lopsided match.

 

I don't know if there's actually a better way -- it is easy to imagine further tinkering based on "spitballing" could really make things far worse especially given the complex factors involved.

 

I'm relatively new at this game and having plenty of fun regardless. Just chiming in, not really complaining.

Edited by Zoney45, 07 December 2018 - 05:30 AM.

[Bobby_Tables]

blindfoId, on 06 December 2018 - 03:54 AM, said:

 The ones who read the forums, collect and deliver the customers' desires/complaints/needs are CMs. 

 

So... with that said, given that WG constantly removes and reassigns CMs from WOWP NA and EU forums and Discord, am I to assume that the "ones who read the forums" is down to you, Blindfold?

 

Just incredible, the amount of 1984 doublespeak lately is amazing.  I get it, the developers do not know what to do to stem the continued loss of players.  One solution would be honest and open discussions with the community outside of Russia.  But, hey, why do that when you can just fire or reassign anyone who speaks out for the EU and NA players?

 

Ninja this post, go ahead.  I did not violate any terms and conditions, but ninja it please, I am at peace with my dharma.  

[Zoney45]

Follow-up to previous post.

 

I just had maybe another half-dozen matches this evening where I lost perhaps like 5 out of 6 and once again pretty much always ended up in the top slot -- typical scenario ending with around 7 or 9K points and 2 or 3 chevrons (grade IV or III) with second-ranked player on my team at around 3K or 4K and lucky to have even one chevron -- whereas the other team's first three slots were like 14K ^^^^ 11K ^^^^ and 10K ^^^.  It seems particularly bad all of a sudden -- is this a new "fix"? If it's designed to "keep me coming back" it's failing spectacularly.

 

I mean, I can yaw/roll/pitch in all the right combos in my fighters to sharpen turns and shorten distance like a vector-happy pro, streak like a mad eagle in my HF/MRF's, and lead like an automaton with my guns while being johnny-on-the-spot at all the key sectors -- but nothing's going to make a damn difference with those kinds of odds. Wait, lemme pull that slot-machine lever one more time. I dunno ... is this skill-based or flip-a-coin?

 

Edited by Zoney45, 07 December 2018 - 08:28 AM.

[Captain_Underpants53]

Zoney45, on 07 December 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:

Follow-up to previous post.

 

I just had maybe another half-dozen matches this evening where I lost perhaps like 5 out of 6 and once again pretty much always ended up in the top slot -- typical scenario ending with around 7 or 9K points and 2 or 3 chevrons (grade IV or III) with second-ranked player on my team at around 3K or 4K and lucky to have even one chevron -- whereas the other team's first three slots were like 14K ^^^^ 11K ^^^^ and 10K ^^^.  It seems particularly bad all of a sudden -- is this a new "fix"? If it's designed to "keep me coming back" it's failing spectacularly.

 

I mean, I can yaw/roll/pitch in all the right combos in my fighters to sharpen turns and shorten distance like a vector-happy pro, streak like a mad eagle in my HF/MRF's, and lead like an automaton with my guns while being johnny-on-the-spot at all the key sectors -- but nothing's going to make a damn difference with those kinds of odds. Wait, lemme pull that slot-machine lever one more time. I dunno ... is this skill-based or flip-a-coin?

 

 

Some advice I tell my clan mates (which I acknowledge having trouble following myself) is, if you are consistently placing in the top three, win or lose, you are doing things right.  All that other stuff (bots, team mates, tier match ups, etc.) is completely out of your control.  Don't worry about it, it will turn around.

 

Having said that, I have had a couple of days this week that were completely exasperating and frustrating.  Oh well, but it did turn around in time.  Good luck!

[Zoney45]

Thanks Cap -- I just completed a win where I PM'd the opposing top-ranked player to the effect of telling him "you was robbed -- you sure gave me a busy time." The poor guy had over 14K points and around grade-two or grade-one status, whereas I was top-ranked on my team at around 8K and I think grade three; and, his upper-level secondary teammates were even better on paper than those on my team. Somehow we beat the pants off 'em like 6-to-4 on capture points.

 

I guess for now we grin and bear it. The MM's been labeled "wonky" by others besides myself. Maybe it's just the nature of the dynamics -- the idiosyncrasies of this style of battle. The game does so much right on so many levels. I gave it a glowing review on Steam a couple weeks ago (under my Steam username).

 

On a side note, one other thing I've noticed is that defense aircraft and AA seem to have gotten tougher. I haven't looked into it but I suspect the devs are actively making adjustments. If that's good or bad remains to be seen. For now I keep flying wavy and shooting straight.

Edited by Zoney45, 07 December 2018 - 09:30 AM.

[Captain_Underpants53]

I hate to see them tinkering with the MM.  Every time they do, it just seems to get a bit crazier. 

 

I had four battles today (yes I fly a lot) with just me and 23 bots.  All four battles were complete and utter blowouts.  Two I won and two I lost. 

 

If the battles were at least close, win or lose, I would say they are doing something right.  As it is.............................