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Why does the American Tech tree lack so many good planes?

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Poll: Does the American Tech Tree lack planes (28 members have cast votes)

Do you thing the American Tech tree needs more planes?

  1. YES (26 votes [92.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 92.86%

  2. NO (2 votes [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

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Double_O7 #1 Posted 25 October 2018 - 04:02 PM

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I just bought a P51A mustang the other day, gosh it awesome for a stock plane. Anyway, I began looking at other planes in the American tech tree to see if I could find any other cool and well known American fighters. They have the Corsair, The Jug, the Wildcat, The P38, etc., but to my dismay, they lack the F6F Hellcat! Why is such a famous zero killing aircraft missing in the American Tech tree? In my opinion, it would make a fine tier 6 that could come from the F4F, and lead to the F7F. 

 

Another thing I noticed is the lack of American attack aircraft, which were used a lot in WW2. There is SPD Dauntless, the SB2U Vindicator, SB2C Helldiver, A-36 Apache, and the A-31 Vengance. Where are these planes at? 

 

There are no American bombers either. Where is the B24 Liberator? the B25 Mitchell? The B17? The B29? The B26? Where are these at?

 

The only Heavy fighter that I can think of is the P61 Black widow, and the p82 twin mustang. 

 

Are there any others that are missing? Share your thoughts



SpiritFoxMY #2 Posted 25 October 2018 - 04:25 PM

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Well, apparently we don't have the Hellcat in part because the name "Hellcat" is trademarked and the rights for THAT are held by Gaijin. And Wargaming doesn't have permission to use F6F either whether because of other copyright issues or simply that they haven't asked if I'm not mistaken. Probably the latter.

 

They only recently added the Hurricanes to the British line and haven't added the Typhoon yet. It will be a good long while before we see any of the other Grumman "Cats".

 

The B-17s are going to be added in a future patch. That much they've confirmed. Dunno about the American mediums - I was almost certain they were going to introduce those as the American bombers but apparently we're getting the heavies first.

 

P-82 is in the game but not available to the general public. Its a special Tester airplane that apparently only exists on the RU server because ony the RU server has a test server.

 

If I were to name a missing airplane I'd say the F-86F GunVal Sabre - the current F-86A is hopelessly undergunned for tier X


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HarryVoyager #3 Posted 25 October 2018 - 05:08 PM

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Is Grumman seriously still doing that? I gather from the Lockheed planes that they've lightened up on the licensing silliness at least, but I'm surprised to hear NG is still at it.

Double_O7 #4 Posted 25 October 2018 - 05:41 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 25 October 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Well, apparently we don't have the Hellcat in part because the name "Hellcat" is trademarked and the rights for THAT are held by Gaijin. And Wargaming doesn't have permission to use F6F either whether because of other copyright issues or simply that they haven't asked if I'm not mistaken. Probably the latter.

 

They only recently added the Hurricanes to the British line and haven't added the Typhoon yet. It will be a good long while before we see any of the other Grumman "Cats".

 

The B-17s are going to be added in a future patch. That much they've confirmed. Dunno about the American mediums - I was almost certain they were going to introduce those as the American bombers but apparently we're getting the heavies first.

 

P-82 is in the game but not available to the general public. Its a special Tester airplane that apparently only exists on the RU server because ony the RU server has a test server.

 

If I were to name a missing airplane I'd say the F-86F GunVal Sabre - the current F-86A is hopelessly undergunned for tier X

How did Gajin trademark a historical machine that they didn't produce? That would be like WG trademarking the KV2 tank in WOT

 

It can't be Gruman that is preventing that otherwise there wouldn't be an f2f, f3f, or an f4f wildcat 


Edited by Double_O7, 25 October 2018 - 05:42 PM.


SpiritFoxMY #5 Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:26 PM

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View PostDouble_O7, on 26 October 2018 - 01:41 AM, said:

How did Gajin trademark a historical machine that they didn't produce? That would be like WG trademarking the KV2 tank in WOT

 

It can't be Gruman that is preventing that otherwise there wouldn't be an f2f, f3f, or an f4f wildcat 

 

From what I understand Gaijin currently holds the license to the name "Hellcat" though Wargaming could just call it the F6F and be done with it, so it's probably just Wargaming not putting it in because reasons.

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J311yfish #6 Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:32 PM

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View PostDouble_O7, on 25 October 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

I just bought a P51A mustang the other day, gosh it awesome for a stock plane. Anyway, I began looking at other planes in the American tech tree to see if I could find any other cool and well known American fighters. They have the Corsair, The Jug, the Wildcat, The P38, etc., but to my dismay, they lack the F6F Hellcat! Why is such a famous zero killing aircraft missing in the American Tech tree? In my opinion, it would make a fine tier 6 that could come from the F4F, and lead to the F7F. 

 

Another thing I noticed is the lack of American attack aircraft, which were used a lot in WW2. There is SPD Dauntless, the SB2U Vindicator, SB2C Helldiver, A-36 Apache, and the A-31 Vengance. Where are these planes at? 

 

There are no American bombers either. Where is the B24 Liberator? the B25 Mitchell? The B17? The B29? The B26? Where are these at?

 

The only Heavy fighter that I can think of is the P61 Black widow, and the p82 twin mustang. 

 

Are there any others that are missing? Share your thoughts

 

USA


Edited by J311yfish, 25 October 2018 - 06:37 PM.

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Double_O7 #7 Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:37 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 25 October 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

So is WG planning to add this stuff?



Double_O7 #8 Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:39 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 25 October 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

 

From what I understand Gaijin currently holds the license to the name "Hellcat" though Wargaming could just call it the F6F and be done with it, so it's probably just Wargaming not putting it in because reasons.

How did they do that if they didn't build the hellcat? 



J311yfish #9 Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:52 PM

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View PostDouble_O7, on 25 October 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

So is WG planning to add this stuff?

 

bombers have been announced -- see Q&A's here


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HarryVoyager #10 Posted 25 October 2018 - 09:41 PM

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There was an earlier WWII flight sim I played heavily that did get a copyright hit against it when it tried to include the F6F. While I think it was eventually resolved, I recall it did prevent the Avenger from being in their Pacific campaign.

J311yfish #11 Posted 25 October 2018 - 09:54 PM

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The true opponent of the F6F would not be the A6M, it would be the N1K2-J.  I mention this because they would be at the same or similar tier.

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HarryVoyager #12 Posted 26 October 2018 - 12:13 AM

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I also think people would be a bit disappointed with the F6F if they expected a world beater. It was faster than the Zero, but it was still slower than 400mph so in game it would play much more like an enlarged Wildcat; jack of all trades, master of none.

That said, I rather enjoy flying the Wildcat in game and wouldn't be at all opposed to a bigger one at Teir 6, though I hope we would get the cannon version without needing the radar dome...

hamhockjones #13 Posted 26 October 2018 - 03:18 AM

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  They will wait to introduce the great planes and charge you 100 dollars to buy one. Then you will have to use up all your exp and gold to dress it out with powerful guns and good pilots... something like that anyway !! 

GonerNL #14 Posted 26 October 2018 - 10:04 AM

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What puzzles me is all those funny experimental planes that only had a prototype or never even made it beyond the drawing board ? 

Seems to me there are enough real planes to model ...


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J311yfish #15 Posted 26 October 2018 - 02:44 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 26 October 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

What puzzles me is all those funny experimental planes that only had a prototype or never even made it beyond the drawing board ? 

Seems to me there are enough real planes to model ...

 

The design process is continuous, and circular, in order to respond to the operational needs of the service and feedback from its pilots.  It is necessary to consider far-out concepts in order to have some clairvoyance into the capability (and intentions) of the enemy, and to identify possible advantage in modifying your own designs to counter theirs. (Ex: Japan developing bombers in secret with methods that extend the range far beyond expected to enable a surprise attack)

 

The production process, on the other hand, is constrained by the practical realities -- materials available, cost of changing production models, etc. (Ex: Japan decision to continue production and modification of the A6M and Ki-43 despite USA's introduction of next generation of fighters)

 

The aircraft that the designers wanted to build is not necessarily the one that ended up being built.  Many examples -- see Hawker line for example with the recently introduced and anticipated Tornado/Typhoon/Tempest sequence.

 

It could be said that the first battle is in the design department (ideas), the second battle is in the production department (of planes and pilots), and the third battle is in the air.  That is one of the reasons this game is interesting to me, even though the historical aspect is not really emphasized -- it is true to the development process by including incremental aircraft (often as premiums).

 

tl;dr

design process is continuous even if production is not 


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HarryVoyager #16 Posted 26 October 2018 - 02:53 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 26 October 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

What puzzles me is all those funny experimental planes that only had a prototype or never even made it beyond the drawing board ? 

Seems to me there are enough real planes to model ...

Most of them are to fill in holes in tech trees or are aircraft of interest. For example, the German real tech tree stops at around tier 7/8 with the 109K-4 being the last upgrade of the tier 7 109 and the 262 only being tier 8. Similarly with Japan; the A7M never even made it to production, and none of their jets saw service. 

 

The Tornado decision just doesn't make sense to me, unless it was mentmeas a differentiator: the Napier Saber and RR Vulture were comparable engines, just the Vulture had enough problems that RR decided to focus on the Griffin instead. 



NovaTempest #17 Posted 05 November 2018 - 06:25 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 26 October 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

 

The design process is continuous, and circular, in order to respond to the operational needs of the service and feedback from its pilots.  It is necessary to consider far-out concepts in order to have some clairvoyance into the capability (and intentions) of the enemy, and to identify possible advantage in modifying your own designs to counter theirs. (Ex: Japan developing bombers in secret with methods that extend the range far beyond expected to enable a surprise attack)

 

The production process, on the other hand, is constrained by the practical realities -- materials available, cost of changing production models, etc. (Ex: Japan decision to continue production and modification of the A6M and Ki-43 despite USA's introduction of next generation of fighters)

 

The aircraft that the designers wanted to build is not necessarily the one that ended up being built.  Many examples -- see Hawker line for example with the recently introduced and anticipated Tornado/Typhoon/Tempest sequence.

 

It could be said that the first battle is in the design department (ideas), the second battle is in the production department (of planes and pilots), and the third battle is in the air.  That is one of the reasons this game is interesting to me, even though the historical aspect is not really emphasized -- it is true to the development process by including incremental aircraft (often as premiums).

 

tl;dr

design process is continuous even if production is not 

 

There are parallels of this all over the freakin' place. Likely the longest strand in game right now is the LF Yak line, followed immediately by the BF line, especially if you exclude the tier 8 Me 209A.

 

There is then the evolution of the the "F_F" Aircraft, which is incomplete in game. It would go from the F2F, F3F, F4F, to the F6F, and then to the F8F. It is up for debate whether the F9F, F10F, and F11F could be included in that mix.

 

Then you have the IL line, which evolves almost seamlessly from the prop-shaft age into the jet-age. The Fw 190's, Mustangs, Spitfires, the La's, the 262s, Zeros, Shindens, and even in a somewhat looser sense the MiG lines also show what J311yfish is talking about in some way in varying lengths (3, 3, 4, 3 + 1 premo [if you exclude the T9 + T10], 3, 4, 3, 5, respectively). And there are a few others I left out.

 

If this game were much more complete, and extended to tier 11-15,  some of these consistent lines could be extended even further. (The MiG line is a perfect example, the Mig-15bis would be followed by the Mig-17, then the Mig-19, then a variant of the Mig-19 that became a prototype for the Mig-21 [The specific prototype model I refer to was designated the SM-12] then a later prototype of the Mig-21 called the Ye-2, then finally the Mig-21 itself. A theoretical "F_F" multirole line could be extended out from - possibly - the F10F, to the "Super" version of the F11F at tier 12, as the next grumman aircraft would be the F-14 tomcat, way too modern for WarThunder, let alone WoWP.

 

Funnily enough, it turns out that the "F_F" line and "F_U" lines could actually be made seperate, but interchangeable to a degree, as the "F_U" line could actually be extended backward all the way to at earliest T3 with some consistency, as there was the Existence of an FU, F2U, and F3U.

 

As J311yfish has exemplified with his piles and piles of possible trees, there is a mountain of research to be made into aircraft development.


Edited by NovaTempest, 05 November 2018 - 06:26 PM.


GonerNL #18 Posted 06 November 2018 - 01:36 PM

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View PostHarryVoyager, on 26 October 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

and none of their jets saw service. 

 

Their jets ? They're German jets ... how's that for filling in holes.

The only Japanese jets I know about are kamikaze planes like the Ohka : https://en.wikipedia...suka_MXY-7_Ohka

And a Me-262 rip-off : https://nationalinte...cific-war-24030


Edited by GonerNL, 06 November 2018 - 01:43 PM.

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WhiteKnight416 #19 Posted 06 November 2018 - 04:36 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 06 November 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

 

Their jets ? They're German jets ... how's that for filling in holes.

The only Japanese jets I know about are kamikaze planes like the Ohka : https://en.wikipedia...suka_MXY-7_Ohka

And a Me-262 rip-off : https://nationalinte...cific-war-24030

 

the J7W1 flew, at least as a prototype, and one of the reason it was a pusher prop was to make the Airframe immediately ready for a jet engine, the proposed but never built J7W2, the "Ki-162" is absolutely a German jet

SpiritFoxMY #20 Posted 07 November 2018 - 03:24 PM

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I am currently slightly confounded that they chose the Consolidated B-32 Dominator as the tier 7 rather than the B-24 Liberator or simply splitting the B-17s up a bit more

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