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Maneuverability: Partly pointless?

Maneuverability Gameplay Mechanics

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NovaTempest #1 Posted 09 October 2018 - 04:19 PM

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So here is a little food for thought... Everyone with a brain (which in a perfect, peaceful world would be everybody) that plays this game knows what all Maneuverability entails. But for those that do not know, here is a little video (with polish translations.. randomly) to clear things up...

 

 

Now of course Warplanes slightly flubs things with this in the form of - as far as I am aware - considering 'Pitch' as a vertical turn. However, this also makes it so that pitch in-game already a covered base right from the get-go, and the reasoning behind this is sensible too.

 

Roll is its own separate factor, some planes have a stupid-high rate of roll (The Fw 190's being a perfect example), while others have virtually no sensible business being upside down at all, ever (IL-2s as a random Example).

 

Roll rate can be altered by Lightweight Wing Frame [LFW for short] if a player thinks they want even more roll speed out of their focke wulf 190 - looking at you SpiritFoxMY. :hiding:

 

So that is Roll covered...

 

But that leaves one thing - the main subject of this topic... Yaw.

In my experience, Yaw hardly seems to be much of a factor unless you are manually using it - which I never have myself. Sure, in many cases it is used at the very start of a hard turn, or used for a soft one. The problem for me is that well... this is all Yaw seems about good for. AKA it seems to have very little major effect on your aircraft.

 

Considering I have two Japanese LFs, a Yak-19, A Spitfire I and now a Venom (thanks burning shores) I have watched my plane's tails for long enough to see the actual rudder hardly used at all in tight turns (though then again my memory might be flopping like a fish here...).

 

So that begs this question: What is the honest point of Yaw in World of Warplanes?

 

of course some of you guys may know way more on this than I do, but considering how warplanes pretty much tosses realistic physics for the most part out the window for arcade mode purposes, i don't exactly see the point of Yaw if all 95% of players and 100% of all bots do on planes that are not GAAs or Bombers (probably) do is roll the plane the direction they intend to turn and just proverbially yank the stick back.

 

Or am i being a complete putz and the truth is Yaw is actually a weapon of the aerial ninja and I am completely aloof of it?   :amazed:



qu33kKC #2 Posted 09 October 2018 - 04:33 PM

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I have Yaw keyed to sidebuttons, but have not experimented much at all with it.  In theory, it might help a BnZ nose over a touch quicker?  One of the things on my list of stuff to try.  Would be interesting in others commentary.

nwlxn12 #3 Posted 09 October 2018 - 04:50 PM

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Don't fly bombers enough to know, but my question is, when a bomber has the bomb sight activated, how does it turn?  I have never lost the ability to drop a bomb when turning with the bomb sight activated which leads me to believe the plane does not roll to the point it can't drop a bomb.  Like I said, I don't fly them a lot and have never tested anything with this.

 

Edit:  If I manually roll the plane with the bomb site activated, I lose the ability to drop bombs, but just turning with the mouse keeps the bomb circle white allowing me to drop bombs.


Edited by nwlxn12, 09 October 2018 - 04:51 PM.


Greg_Pattinson #4 Posted 09 October 2018 - 04:52 PM

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The video you posted is overly simplified.  Roll and yaw are interconnected in real life anyway but no idea about wowp.  When you roll an airplane with ailerons alone you will get adverse yaw.  That means as you roll the plane to the left the nose will start to point to the right which is the opposite way you want to turn.  In a coordinated turn (read as normal every day turn) you use ailerons (stick input) and rudder (pedal input).  By using too much or too little rudder you get a slip or skid turn.  So a seemingly simple horizontal turn actually requires all 3; yaw, pitch, and roll.  With a full flight control set up you could do advanced maneuvers like side slipping  (opposite stick and rudder input) which maintains forward direction of travel but with the nose pointed off to the side this causes a lot of drag and bleeds off airspeed or altitude in a hurry.   Post stall maneuvers like spins and snap rolls are also heavily influenced by rudder input.  Since I use a keyboard and mouse( laptop track pad)  I cant say how any of this applies to wowp.

wylleEcoyote #5 Posted 09 October 2018 - 05:00 PM

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Yaw comes into play in game for the small~ish left / right course corrections.
Specifically as you move your mouse across the screen to line up with your target for the shootyshooty BangBangBang.

The rudder inputs (and the elevator movements for Pitch) are automatically done for the most part.
Until you find the setting that allows you to turn off the computers desire to maneuver the plane as best it can to point it in the direction the camera/mouse is currently facing
Some folks do this because they like to make use of throttle/joystick for this game


Polished skin equipment adversely affects this. getting your tail critically hit also affects this.

And yes its mostly used by GAA flying so low+slow  that they are actually drivers now and coming off level flight will result in collisions.
And yes its fun when doing the equivalent of a bootleggers turn inside 30 meters in a stuka. 

As for the aerial nin-joot-soo ... that's a different game.

 

Cenotaph #6 Posted 09 October 2018 - 05:06 PM

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I've never bothered with roll in bomb sight mode... but in turret mode , roll keys turn into yaw automatically.

 


Edited by Cenotaph, 09 October 2018 - 05:08 PM.

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Greg_Pattinson #7 Posted 09 October 2018 - 05:34 PM

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To say that yaw is only for small course changes or mostly for GAA and for bombers is incorrect.  Even a flat turn would require aileron movement to maintain the wings level during the turn.  The opposite of adverse yaw would be adverse roll.  The main reason that most planes have a vertical tail and rudder assembly unlike birds is the problem of adverse yaw.  Tailless aircraft like the B2 use split ailerons to deal with the problem of adverse yaw.  Split ailerons are ailerons that go both up and down at the same time on the same side just in varying amounts.  The downside with split ailerons is that they cause more drag and are less efficient than a vertical tail and rudder.  If you look at the b2 from behind even in level flight the split ailerons are almost always at least partially open.  Think of increasing yaw as increasing the size of the rudder.  A bigger rudder would take less deflection to achieve the same amount of yaw.  The reason that you see only small rudder deflections in even the tightest of turns is because a large deflection would result in an extreme slip or skid.

Deltavee #8 Posted 09 October 2018 - 05:35 PM

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View PostNovaTempest, on 09 October 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

So here is a little food for thought... Everyone with a brain (which in a perfect, peaceful world would be everybody) that plays this game knows what all Maneuverability entails. But for those that do not know, here is a little video (with polish translations.. randomly) to clear things up...

 

 

Now of course Warplanes slightly flubs things with this in the form of - as far as I am aware - considering 'Pitch' as a vertical turn. However, this also makes it so that pitch in-game already a covered base right from the get-go, and the reasoning behind this is sensible too.

 

Roll is its own separate factor, some planes have a stupid-high rate of roll (The Fw 190's being a perfect example), while others have virtually no sensible business being upside down at all, ever (IL-2s as a random Example).

 

Roll rate can be altered by Lightweight Wing Frame [LFW for short] if a player thinks they want even more roll speed out of their focke wulf 190 - looking at you SpiritFoxMY. :hiding:

 

So that is Roll covered...

 

But that leaves one thing - the main subject of this topic... Yaw.

In my experience, Yaw hardly seems to be much of a factor unless you are manually using it - which I never have myself. Sure, in many cases it is used at the very start of a hard turn, or used for a soft one. The problem for me is that well... this is all Yaw seems about good for. AKA it seems to have very little major effect on your aircraft.

 

Considering I have two Japanese LFs, a Yak-19, A Spitfire I and now a Venom (thanks burning shores) I have watched my plane's tails for long enough to see the actual rudder hardly used at all in tight turns (though then again my memory might be flopping like a fish here...).

 

So that begs this question: What is the honest point of Yaw in World of Warplanes?

 

of course some of you guys may know way more on this than I do, but considering how warplanes pretty much tosses realistic physics for the most part out the window for arcade mode purposes, i don't exactly see the point of Yaw if all 95% of players and 100% of all bots do on planes that are not GAAs or Bombers (probably) do is roll the plane the direction they intend to turn and just proverbially yank the stick back.

 

Or am i being a complete putz and the truth is Yaw is actually a weapon of the aerial ninja and I am completely aloof of it?   :amazed:

 

I use it mostly for horizontal fine adjustment (twist grip rudder control on a 3D Pro) while working over a target in my GAA, picking targets within a box or for spraying tents from one side to the other.  It also helps line up on distant targets before your run in by crabbing the plane sideways instead of turning the plane away from the target and having to realign.  Also, throwing in some rudder while rolling into a dive manoeuver will help toss the nose of the plane down and in a little more, helping the other control surfaces.  I never bothered with it while using k&m, but with the rudder twist built into the joystick handle, I use it all the time and it does help.

Edited by Deltavee, 09 October 2018 - 11:14 PM.

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ARCNA442 #9 Posted 09 October 2018 - 06:10 PM

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Yaw is for lining up on a target and keeping it in your sights - especially on planes with a low roll rate.

SpiritFoxMY #10 Posted 09 October 2018 - 11:06 PM

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I use yawing for evasive maneuvers. Full roll+yaw in one direction causes a rapid shift in airplane direction that a BnZ heavy will find hard to follow. It's how I stay alive when I have a charging Beaufighter or 262

***

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So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


trikke #11 Posted 10 October 2018 - 12:29 AM

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View PostNovaTempest, on 09 October 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

 if a player thinks they want even more roll speed out of their focke wulf 190 - looking at you SpiritFoxMY. :hiding:

 

lol... he's ridiculously good in that goofball thing

 

it has so many deadly flaws...  no sane wowp pilot would fly them

 

he's obsessed with perfecting unloved planes, for the fun of it

 

there's something really wrong with him...   but it's a really interesting wrong


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

mnbv_fockewulfe #12 Posted 10 October 2018 - 01:07 AM

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Yaw makes mouse aim easier.

A TL;DR version coming up tomorrow!:)


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vcharng #13 Posted 10 October 2018 - 01:16 AM

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Fly a Me 265/329, you'll find your plane using yaw every day.

SpiritFoxMY #14 Posted 10 October 2018 - 01:19 AM

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View Posttrikke, on 10 October 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

 

lol... he's ridiculously good in that goofball thing

 

it has so many deadly flaws...  no sane wowp pilot would fly them

 

he's obsessed with perfecting unloved planes, for the fun of it

 

there's something really wrong with him...   but it's a really interesting wrong

 

I'm not the one packing a fully Specialized, Ultimate Equipped I-210... or an Fw252 with 283 degree per second roll *looks over at Rei*  :trollface:

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


mnbv_fockewulfe #15 Posted 10 October 2018 - 03:52 AM

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View Posttrikke, on 10 October 2018 - 12:29 AM, said:

 

lol... he's ridiculously good in that goofball thing

 

it has so many deadly flaws...  no sane wowp pilot would fly them

 

he's obsessed with perfecting unloved planes, for the fun of it

 

there's something really wrong with him...   but it's a really interesting wrong

 

SpiritFox only wishes he could fly the Wurger as well as I can. :B

Joking aside, I'm glad someone's taken up my quest to be the greatest Butcher Bird pilot in WOWP.:honoring:


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ShoeButton #16 Posted 10 October 2018 - 05:32 PM

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As a Joystick Jocky,  I can honestly say I use All Three axis in nearly every turn...

 

Plane Equipment is a Whole Nouther Can O Worms...

Do you Equip to Bolster your plane's given traits, or to Offset its Shortcoming?

Theres a hundred answers depending on the Player, Pilot, Plane and Purpose...

 

Which brings up a Sore Point: Charging the Player to Change Equipment in our Planes seems counterproductive to me, if WG Truly wants to encourage us to try New Setups on our Plethora of Planes!

 

:hiding:

 

Regards,

-ShoeButton  



mnbv_fockewulfe #17 Posted 10 October 2018 - 06:26 PM

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View PostGreg_Pattinson, on 09 October 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

The video you posted is overly simplified.  Roll and yaw are interconnected in real life anyway but no idea about wowp.  When you roll an airplane with ailerons alone you will get adverse yaw.  That means as you roll the plane to the left the nose will start to point to the right which is the opposite way you want to turn.  In a coordinated turn (read as normal every day turn) you use ailerons (stick input) and rudder (pedal input).  By using too much or too little rudder you get a slip or skid turn.  So a seemingly simple horizontal turn actually requires all 3; yaw, pitch, and roll.  With a full flight control set up you could do advanced maneuvers like side slipping  (opposite stick and rudder input) which maintains forward direction of travel but with the nose pointed off to the side this causes a lot of drag and bleeds off airspeed or altitude in a hurry.   Post stall maneuvers like spins and snap rolls are also heavily influenced by rudder input.  Since I use a keyboard and mouse( laptop track pad)  I cant say how any of this applies to wowp.

 

 

Thanks for very correctly stating the realistic part of how yaw works. +1:great:

To finish the other part of the answer:

In-game, if you apply right or left rudder in level flight, you can basically drive the plane as if it were a car. In real life, extended use of yaw will cause the plane to roll because it creates a lift imbalance on your plane. This does not happen in-game, so you can use right and left rudder as long as you want without having to use the ailerons to cancel out the yaw.


 

In-game, if you're a joystick user you can go into advanced settings and turn off "slip compensation". This is on by default, and basically what it does is applies automatic rudder so every turn is a coordinated turn. I turn this off as it makes the flying feel a degree more realistic and natural (albeit, the amount of slip that occurs is nowhere near as strong as it should be, banking 90 degrees in a sustained turn requires much more yaw power than you get in real life to not lose altitude, in-game use lose no altitude from banking 90 degrees).


 

The only other thing that yaw is good is for besides mouse and joystick aim, is the hammerhead maneuver. The hammer head is a post stall maneuver where to turn the plane around from the pure vertical climb you apply left or right rudder to turn your nose around. This is an extremely risky move in the current meta, with little reward but a significant amount of satisfaction.


 

One thing I wish WOWP would model is actual physics...I mean...the factor known as instability. This is different from your normal roll and turn rate in that I would define it as the airplane's ability to change it's direction without changing it's movement vector. Think of it like this, a big ol' heavy plane like the Jug, if it goes into a turn, because of it's big wing area, it will move in the direction it's pointing very closely, compared to a light plane like the Zero, which will can turn around before it's momentum has been canceled out by the force acting on the wings.


 

Just one of my dreams for the game to actually be fun again and be about flying skill.  

 


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